macd21 said:

I'd disagree that the Stormtrooper can dish out more damage than the VA, there is nothing stopping the Vindicaire also being able to use probably the best ranged weapon in the game the Autocannon if he so chose. The Stormtroopers problem is he has nothing very exciting over the standard stuff a guardsman has compared with the huge upgrades a Death Cult Assasain or Magos gets. I've got a feral world Guardsman and I'm at a loss what path to take since Guardsman is so underhwelming, and Crusader is the wrong fit (playing a Missionary in Rogue Trader) and we already have a Vindicaire candidate. I'm looking at Interrogator and although it costs a little more exp, it looks like roughly the same combat ability.

Bombernoy said:

The best defensive ability in the game is the dodge or parry because it completely negates an attack. Fields fit in here aswell.

The second best defense is toughness as it can completely stop a low damaging attack.

The third best defense is armour which is toughness that gets ignored fairly easily.

The fourth best defense is wounds which are poor ablative toughness.

When I tried to build my guardsman as a tank, the best ability that let me take more hits was step aside, because nothing else comprehensively stopped as much damage.

The Vindicaire is superior in dodging and toughness to the Stormtrooper, can be his equal in armour if he chooses and is inferior in terms of wounds, by RAW if you want a tank you want to go with a Vindicaire over a Stormtrooper, though Magos might edge out the Vindicaire.

Hidaowin said:

And here I thought the VA was a straight DPS class. Problem there is that the VA is going to draw more aggro from the boss. And if the guard is trying to tank how is he going to maintain threat? Wait....what?

Illithidelderbrain said:

Bombernoy said:

SWEET!

Although I herd its just a series of tubes. confirm/deny?

Illithidelderbrain said:

Your tubes will arrive in 3-7 weeks, they will sent you via another series of tubes. TUBES.

Illithidelderbrain said:

I'm not sure what your point is other than a restatement that the VA is a superior career to the Stormtrooper in combat situations.

Oh btw when discussing an RPG if technical assessment is your thing the term is DPR not DPS...unless of course you've hacked the system for real time combat simulation or are playing a dynamic initiative system like Exalted in which case it would be DPT.

Hidaowin said:

Hidaowin said:

Just having some fun BTW, you can call me by my real name: Cereal Killer. HACK THE PLANET!

Carry on

Illithidelderbrain said:

Bombernoy said:

I'm sorry I still don't get it, how is discussing passive and active defenses "looking at this as like an MMORPG"? Unless you're shooting for another tired iteration of a "rollplaying" jibe

Hidaowin said:

To borrow from the TT then... People are mathhammering the classes to try to "win the game."

Hidaowin said:

Won't be tired till people stop making it a point on these forums. Indeed more tiring are the number of threads that are geared towards "Q.Q. The two supernatural classes are better then the regular ones, Q.Q." It says no where in the book they wanted the game to be perfectly balanced, and no rpg will ever claim that. The fact of the matter is either find a way to fix it yourself if you don't like it, or play a different game, stop complaining that they implemented a "broken" system and its so terrible you have to "fix it yourself", the classes involved inherently break the system and were meant to do so(psykers are ultra rare humans that tap into some sort of power the rest of us can even fathom, assassins are actually trained harder and made tougher/better fighters then the adeptus astrates). Sorry if its not the game you wanted/expected. So again, yea, pretty much it goes right back to the fact that people are so caught up in balance they because the super human assassin who has had god knows what done to him can dodge bullets better then the regular joe without years of his life sucked away as well as most of his humanity that there must be something wrong with the game, even though the established canon says that is how the world works.
Now, to be clear, what you do in your games is up to you and the other players, and if you want a game where every class is equally good in combat, that's fine, the point after all is to have fun.

So if I write a background about how my character was gang raped every day, kicked in the teeth and crotch every night, fed on dirty milk and rotten meat for ten years, then I can shoot laser beams from my eyes and bullets will bounce off my chest? Background is just that, background material, it does not in itself justify making one character outlandishly overpowered when compared to others.

Besides which, VA is an extended career offered in the Ascension book - prior to 9th level your character may well have been a different type of assassin, with personality and everything! For him to have suddenly gone through a lifetime of augmentation and conditioning seems like a background retcon designed to excuse a design flaw.

Jack of Tears said:

Bombernoy said:

Both careers could have been included in the game without breaking it. VA's are awesome, very very awesome, in the fluff. However that does not mean they need to be represented in the game with the ridiculous abilities that they were. The biggest issue is the fact that they can get 6 - 14 100%+ dodges. They don't need that to represent the fluff. A single extra reaction would have been sufficient, IMO, when combined with their other extra-reaction talents. They'd still auto-dodge with those reactions. Primaris psykers can still be godlike without automatically dominating the game. The suggestions made in this thread would be a good start. By changing the 'Damage Stat' from WB to the amount of power used, you still leave them with the potential to wipe out multiple LoC in a round, but only if they are willing to risk severe backlash - something that is entirely appropriate for the setting. A power 10 psyker playing it safe (fettered) will be making +5 dmg attacks instead of +10, which is an reasonable amount of damage. The greater the risk, the more damage he does.

If the designers couldn't find a way to make the careers both represent the fluff and fit into the game without breaking it, then those careers shouldn't be options for the characters. Just because something exists in the fluff doesn't mean it is a viable character option. Even if it is, it may be for an entirely different game.

macd21 said:

Bombernoy said:

It was stated that the reason Vindicare and Psykers are so baddass is because of their background material - I was pointing out that I can make a character with a background as horrible and unique as any of those classes and yet don't get some bizarre super powers from it. Yes, in the setting psykers are powerful and scary, but the fluff makes a point of this already by the way they are treated - that doesn't mean they should have godlike power in the game. Same goes for Vindicare - one should not become immensely powerful all of a sudden because they slap the title Vindicare on their character - presumably the people in the books are high level examples of these characters, not 9th level demigods of death. Not every special forces member is Rambo, not every private investigator is Sherlock Holmes.

As to your comment about ignoring material, that is blatantly ridiculous; my dissatisfaction with an element of the setting/game mechanic does not invalidate my entire use of the universe. Personally I think the idea that VAs can take out groups of Space Marines loony tunes and will never use that in my game - that does not, however, mean I have suddenly committed an unforgivable sin for which I shall be henceforth expelled from the setting like a leper in a nursery. Part of your job as GM is to make judgement calls about - not only rules - but setting information that does not sit well with you and/or your players. The setting as written is not some kind of holy shrine which should be praised as all perfect, all gratifying. I suspect even the authors would admit as much.

And as another poster pointed out - these professions could be introduced into the setting without being game breaking and should my game ever get to the point where I am using Ascension, I will make the necessary tweaks to keep the flavor of those in question without making them game breaking in scope.

A big part of what people seem to be forgetting is, this is a game. Games need balance so everyone comes to the table on equal terms - even if they are playing on the same side. Role playing and player ingenuity may tip this balance once the game begins, but there should not be a disparity from the outset.

Jack of Tears said:

I haven't read the books, but as far as I've understood it there are alpha psykers that mind control hundreds of people at once. This is not possible using the DH/Ascension rules. In other words, they've intentionally toned down the power level of psykers and have NOT tried to be 100% true to the "canon". Nor should they be, it's just silly to be that orthodox when making a RPG out of a setting.

Another question: are psykers in the canon able to use their powers at whim without risking warp phenomena (aka fettered)?

when I do GM I can virtually create about anything so what about a warp daemon that warps in get's a surprise round(because then I don't need to worry about initiative) and as he is a warp demon he can feint+attack the same round... can a VA dodge a feint? or is he dead?

what about destryoing the VA's weapon? you need about 1 daemon surviving the VA's first round or have a surprise round for this kind off stuff which shouldn't be that hard...

and heck you're a gm what about a VA-heretik ?

and I really can't see a VA dodge a meltabomb which's blast radius is greater then the VA's run speed or a Warp portal or Vacuum ("the hull is broken vacuum comes inside" "I dodge it")

Tyranid swarm is always cool let the Psyker kill hordes of the beasts the VA dodge a shitload of everything while the guradsmen gives pinning fire for them and the sage and magos or whoever try to find a way to kill the Tyranid queen meanwhile the inquisitor and the second guardsmen or whoever can manage the defense forces of the city you defend

best thing about tyranid swarms? there are not hundreds of them... not thousands but "endless"

heck ascencion is named ascencion for a cause... they are ascended characters... above the normal limits meaning overpowered

when I compare this VA is imba to the adept->Sage is imba well who wins? you are supposed to be overpowered and it is a challenge for the gm to challenge his players on such a level and to play out their strengths and weaknesses

you are sick of vacuum encounters because it just get's to repetitive? get it done underwater... what about an unsanctioned timemanipulating psyker as an npc? just be creative

dosn't solve the PPs problem but most of this should work for a VA

I don't know about you, but I think designing scenarios where each PC must play a specific role is force feeding a story on your players...and this includes combat.

this was only an example of actions they could take... of course they could try to make the best only using the defenses the city/planet has and organise them or leaveall of them to doom and try search for a kill the queen solution together or the guardsmen and the psyker and the VA could try solve the kill the queen problem and the magos and the tech-priest coudl ty fend of the swarm on their own... or they could be like... ok let's call in an exterminatus and make the psyker open a portal for us to get out...and search the galaxy for the next eldar ship to destroy...(corruption...)

but as a gm having players that played their chars up to ascencion I should be able to anticipate the rough course of action and can pull triggers to make them do stuff (telling them without help the defense will be overrun for sure will probably make them see if they can help either by being present themselves or by arranging for help or strategic advantage of some kind) it only happened once to me that (in a game of shadowrun) the group said fu** that we don't like the task we instead go rob a bank (and I didn't gm the group but was a player)

Yeah I agree with you for the most part. I guess the two factions (Factionita ROLLplayingus and Factionatia ROLEABOVEallingus) will never agree on the balance issue anyway. For the life of me I can't figure out why someone wouldn't want to curb the power level of psykers somewhat (like someone suggested above by e.g. using power rating used instead of WB etc) - would it kill off your game and all the fun of a psyker? Of course not.

Oh well

Bombernoy said:

Ah yes, the DnD wizard... the poster child for bad game design. For years the wizard has been used as the best example of what not to do when creating character options. No, 'most every RPG's do not have one class that becomes horrendously powerful, just poorly designed ones.

Balance is, quite simply, a desirable goal in game design. A game is better with it than not, because those players to whom balance is important will notice it when it's absent and those players who don't care simply don't care either way.

In addition, balance is only half the problem with the VA and the Primaris. The other half is the fact that they break the game. They render 95% of the standard combat encounters of the game useless because they simply crush their opposition.

Sirion said:

Yes, as a GM you can try to come up with specific scenarios to nerf your players abilities. You can always send the Primaris up against blanks, or the VA against opponents with 100% BS and high damage full auto weapons. You can give their opponents 5000 Wounds and TB 20 as well. Normally that kind of thing just means you are a bad GM. In this case it is the game forcing you to do so to in order to challenge the players, which just makes it a bad game.

It also doesn't change the fact that by forcing you to do the above it robs you of the opportunity to put them up against more 'normal' challenges, like the Eversor Assassin, the Lord of Change or the Herald Of Khorne. An Eldar Exarch with a team of aspect warriors barely slows them down. Unless you boost their opposition's stats and abilities to ridiculous levels they kill everything, easily.

Sirion said:

No, you are supposed to be powerful, not overpowered. Overpowered, by its very definition, is a problem. PCs are supposed to be powerful enough that they can take on Greater Daemons, Temple Assassins, Planetary Governors, 'nid swarms, Necron awakenings etc etc. That is the point of Ascension - that you can face these enemies and survive, even triumph. But you aren't supposed to face those enemies, laugh, then kill them in a single round, or else be completely immune to their attacks. There also shouldn't be 'newb traps' - character choices that result in terribly subpar characters who can't contribute as much to the campaign as others. In the case of Ascension the newb traps are the Crusader, Death Cult Assassin or Storm Trooper. Taking any of these classes is pretty pointless, especially if there is a VA or PP in the group. Most of the other careers have enough non-combat abilities to remain useful so if they don't mind being completely superfluous in combat they should be fine.