filler ships like z-95's and generic mining guild ties arent seeing much play anymore, r these 2 attack dice ships still relevant? worth the points?

thoughts?

I would say it is less a problem with 2 attack dice and more a problem of cheaper high initiative ships.

There is less token stacking and less action economy than 1.0 so when your 2 dice get a shot they have a better chance to do damage.

The reason they dont see as much play is there are a ton of affordable I5 pilots out there that can arc dodge them and kill them without return fire.

In 1.0 there was maybe a 7-8 point spread between the pilot skill 1-2 and the pilot skill 7-8 on the same chassi. Now with points doubled for most things in 2.0, we still only see about a 7-10 point spread between I1 and I5 instead of the expected 13-16 so in essence the high initiatives are relatively cheaper and a better overall value. Add to that the fact that more ships have more reposition options than in 1.0, X,Y and Z's can all natively barrel roll for example and you also see more potential for arc dodging which again makes the higher init the better value.

Zs were never particularly popular, even in 1e. They're a kind of benchmark in bland. TIE Fighters, and their /fo and Mining variants, still see plenty of time, though. They remain good filler, blocker, swarm, and harassing ships, depending on your style. Most 2atk ships have something else going on for them, some 3agi, access to faster/more agile maneuvers, or secondary weapons. Some even have all of the above.

It's a trade off that works, if it's your play style. I've been having a ball with those 2atk TAPs lately, thanks to the wonder of Supernatural Reflexes to open up a wealth of options. 5x A-wings is still a thing, and I can't remember a rebel or resistance list I've played against in 2e that didn't have at least one A-wing.

The 2atk ship is still popular, and it's still a strong choice, because most of them have a trick up their sleeve, if you're willing to give them a chance.

Not the Z95 though. That has no redeeming features.

19 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

Not the Z95 though. That has no redeeming features.

Cheap, less likely to get crit first time shot than others in its price range and has a decent maneuver set. That's about it though.

Don't bash the Z-95s, they are awesome! Tanky fellas for their price.

Fine with double mods. My Torrents with Sinker do good work.

I used to be terrified of res A's with optics. They have a guaranteed 2 hits (except in weird outliers) and too many arcs to dodge all at once. Now with gas clouds, my Silencer bois breathe easier and can start to pick things apart. Also, engaging a TIE swarm is much easier!

Only having 2 red dice is less important than staying alive to use them.

Honestly I’m finding two die ships work well enough in many situations. This after going to a small seven person kit tournament and the TIE swarm variations took 2nd, 3rd and fourth.... after a mixed CIS four ship player. Two forms of Rebel Beef and a double Infiltrator list rounded out the player lists.

They are my go to right now. As long as they are efficient enough.

I don’t think two dice is the problem. While L’ulo is the most popular, RZ-2s do good work. Had good experience with Seevor in the Mining Guild TIE, as well as some two dice Turrets.

As for the filler stuff, I think it’s more to do with initiative than the two dice. I have seen swarms of them work with something to add rerolls (Drea and Sinker, for example).

1 hour ago, TheCeilican said:

Only having 2 red dice is less important than staying alive to use them.

This is a really good point. Its crazy how much more useful Torrents feel than Tie Fighters. Even Tie FOs.

I loved Z95s in 1e and think they are relevant in 2e but my experience with 2 attack dice ships is initiative and high hull values of other popular ships.

I always feel like I need 2 more rounds in every game or one more block that I just don’t get.

I'd say relevant in masses, when they can focus fire in quick succession (all the same initiative is helpful in this case). As individual ships - I'd say not that valuable, unless they have some good support.

The TIE/sf is an interesting example here because 1) they are pretty darn survivable at 3 hull 3 shields, and 2) you have the option of paying 10 points more for a 3rd attack die. This makes for some good comparisons. I read about somebody here on the forums using five Special Forces TIE fighters without the Special Forces Gunner, and I really had my doubts. But I tried three of them along with Hate + Optics Kylo Ren, and I was really impressed. They had a hard time fighting Jedi (Force is good - who knew?), but they make for a threatening group that had the Jedi checking their steps throughout the match.

I agree with the stance that high-initiative arc dodging is a bigger problem than the number of attack dice.

---

You know what, I'm going to state what I think is another factor: going on tilt. See, flying a bunch of generics has as much to do with play style as it does with player psyche. If losing a ship before it fires doesn't bother you, it's easier to swarm these low-initiative pilots en masse, because you understand that losing a single ship doesn't put you as far behind as it would seem. Keep your wits about you, and you can win the match.

I think the same thing happens with 2-attack dice ships. You throw volley after volley of dice, and nothing sticks - do you get frustrated, or do you keep your head in the game? People that let those missed shots get to them are more likely to choose to fly ships with more attack dice. But if you are the kind of player that flies in a conservative manner so as to be able to get moderately good shots round after round, you're more likely to see those shots score some damage. On that note, I think when 2-attack ships dive into range 1, and then have to flip around and are forced to take a range 3 shot the following turn it makes matters worse because you get high hopes for that strong 3-dice shot, and if that goes bad, it's easier to flip out. Just keep steady, spin that web, and reel in your prey. It feels so good when you pull it off! (But it feels awful when your trap can be avoided by hypermobile repositioning ships, which takes us back to what was stated earlier in this thread.) Not to say that range 1 shots are bad, but don't put pressure on your ship to perform in those situations - even 3-attack dice blank out sometimes.

P.S. I found out recently that there are few things in this game as frustrating as facing hot green dice. I'm usually the one rolling the smokin' hot evades, but recently I played a game where even my 3 attack dice strikers could not secure a kill on 1-hull TIE bomber. SO FRUSTRATING! If I were rolling only 2 dice, I would probably have blamed it on that. But as I was rolling 3 dice, I had the clarity to realize that my slightly below average rolling and his slightly above average evades just netted no damage for 3 rounds. So if you think 2 dice is too weak for your attacks, realize that sometimes the extra die just isn't as helpful as we tend to think it is.

P.P.S. I wrote a lot more than I expected.

10 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

filler ships like z-95's and generic mining guild ties arent seeing much play anymore, r these 2 attack dice ships still relevant? worth the points?

thoughts?

This is not correct. The number of 2attack and 3attack ships in hyperspace trials of wave 3 are on a very similar level: 1187 vs 1376. And yes, that factors in upgrades like 7B, special forces gunner, etc.

Of course ships like the x1 with a lock can't be counted as 3attack ships, and neither can all ordnance or secondary weapons be added because it really depends. But 2attack dice ships clearly are relevant, and highly so.

1 minute ago, GreenDragoon said:

This is not correct. The number of 2attack and 3attack ships in hyperspace trials of wave 3 are on a very similar level: 1187 vs 1376. And yes, that factors in upgrades like 7B, special forces gunner, etc.

Of course ships like the x1 with a lock can't be counted as 3attack ships, and neither can all ordnance or secondary weapons be added because it really depends. But 2attack dice ships clearly are relevant, and highly so.

any data on what factions or ship types specifically r getting played? how different are the two formats i wonder... hyperspace vs extended.

1 minute ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

any data on what factions or ship types specifically r getting played? how different are the two formats i wonder... hyperspace vs extended.

Here you go

Extended is unfortunately limited to north american SystemOpens, because I don't do the work for smaller events and european system opens unfortunately haven't added lists since Paris (where I input all 160 myself, after Firstearth gathered the lists...). The UK SOS is already at around 200 lists. But then again they are all over the place and just 1/3 of participants is something I don't feel comfortable with.

So comparisons are out for the moment.

-3 dices attack with focus probability to hit/crit:

0 hit: 1%

1hit: 14%

2hit: 42%

3hit: 42%

-2 dices attack with focus:

0 hit: 6%

1 hit: 37%

2 hit: 56%

-4 attacks, 3 attack dices with focus each:

5 hit: 1%

6 hit: 4%

7 hit: 10%

8 hit: 19%

9 hit: 25%

10: hit 23%

11 hit: 12%

12 hit: 3%

-6attacks, 2 attack dices with focus each:

5 hit: 1%

6hit: 4%

7hit: 10%

8hit: 19%

9 hit: 25%

10 hit: 23%

11 hit: 12%

12 hit: 3%

so.....

-on the single shot 3 dice is better obviously

-number of expected hit results: a 6 ships swarm, 2 dices with focus each shot, is statistically the same as 4 ships 3 focused ships.

but... is much more difficoult to do damage with 2 dices because you can't have more than 2 hit per attack.

so....

to be effective with 2 dices attack you need almost 6 ships with almost another dices modifier (howlrunner for example), block and possibly shoot at range 1.

a lot of stuff to learn to do.... not so easy

(consider also that you easely loose your attack "efficency" in the moment one of your little fragile 2 dices ships explodes..... and this is a problem in the late game.)

in my opinion if you chose a 2 dices single ship (not swarming) it should have a very good ability/durability/point price to justify its presence on the field.....

otherwise 3 red dices ships are better

16 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

filler ships like z-95's and generic mining guild ties arent seeing much play anymore, r these 2 attack dice ships still relevant? worth the points?

thoughts?

Brought a XXXA Resistance list the other night. Faced a Starviper+2Zs+?.

I literally can't remember the full list, because the stinking Z's kept nattie-ing their 2agi and survived the whole game.

Wasted so many shots on those two devils... ended up losing since his variance was above avg all game and mine was below.

A bit of a slap in the face for me...

Lesson: generics with 2 attack are worth it, and most people should have at least one in a list. In 2ed, it seems that these fillers are much less often one-shot-ed than in 1e.

16 hours ago, NakedDex said:

Zs were never particularly popular, even in 1e. They're a kind of benchmark in bland.

N'Dru Suhlak — Z-95 Headhunter17Lone Wolf2Cluster Missiles4Glitterstim2Guidance Chips0Ship Total: 25

Did hit really hard in 1ed, excellent flanker. Works no longer in 2nd ed, now restricted to primary.

While the named Z95s are actually cheaper in 2nd ed, there are often better alternatives, though. The exception is Blount, as he is a budget X-Wing, so he was popping up in some lists.

I tend to favor the names pilots for the cheap 2 red dice ships.

I either want some punch or some useful ability