On the map on pg. 9 of Shadowlands I see the island east of Earthquake Fish Bay marked as Yasuki, and the land (island? - see my question regarding river flows...) to the north of it marked as 'Souther Crane Lands'.

Yet the text on page 64 describes how the Yasuki Estates are also known as 'Black Crane Estates'. They are described as 'overlooking Earthquake Fish Bay'. Yet the Black Crane Estates marked on the map on pg. 9 are nowhere near Earthquake Fish Bay.

In Emerald Empire, pg. 128, there is reference to the Scorpion Bayushi and the Crab Yasuki families working together to fight back the river pirates. This seems to suggest the Yasuki DO have holdings on the river, and not just the island east of Earthquake Fish Bay.

• How far north do the Yasuki holdings extend?
• Where is the border between Yasuki and Crane? And Yasuki and Hida?
• Where is the Yasuki 'Black Crane Estates' located?
• Is someone trying to drive me mad with all these apparent disconnects? Am I missing something obvious?

Imperial Maps are notorious in L5R for being inaccurate. So yes, blame the Miya cartographers for your madness. 😀

In the Shadowlands Book, which has the most detailed map of the Crab Lands, Friendly Traveler Village is on "the bottom Island." That's safely Yasuki lands.

The Black Crane Estates are halfway up the second larger island and do not overlook Earthquake Fish Bay (unless you choose to move them south). However as you note on page 64 it says that they do. Put it where you want. I would leave it north of the Bay. Both Swirling Pool from EE and Friendly Traveler are already on the Bay.

My best guess is that the Yasuki own the bottom half of the larger Island and the Crane own the top half.

Again guessing, but I do not think the Yasuki have any major holding on the river. HOWEVER they are one of the major traders of the Emerald Empire so its not unreasonable that they coordinate with other far flung places to keep trade going (like an alliance with the Bayushi to fight river pirates).

The bottom island is almost certainly purely crab lands since the only settlement on it listed is friendly traveller village.

4 hours ago, Void Crane said:

My best guess is that the Yasuki own the bottom half of the larger Island and the Crane own the top half.

The island above it definitely has both crane and crab lands on it - the Black Crane estates are the Yasuki 'capital', but the southeastern tip is the Temple of the Morning Sun - Asahina lands - and the northeastern is the Port That Never Sleeps, a crane seaport that's mostly controlled by the Daidoji Trading Council. Whilst there's clearly a border between clan domains on the island it must run roughly north-south, not east-west.

4 hours ago, Void Crane said:

Again guessing, but I do not think the Yasuki have any major holding on the river.

The Black Crane Estates are on the river. The Bay itself looks to be pretty much a crab pond. The Western Bank of the river looks like it has a fair number of minor clans - the sparrow and fox castles are definitely supposed to be there.

4 hours ago, Void Crane said:

Imperial Maps are notorious in L5R for being inaccurate.

Indeed. Emerald Empire talks about this at length, I believe...

Alright, thanks! And it's not just the cartographers, the writers are just as suspect

Mmm. So Clear Water 'Village' is Hida, not Yasuki?

1 hour ago, Derk_g said:

Mmm. So Clear Water 'Village' is Hida, not Yasuki?

Supposedly it was Yasuki-owned.

Page 161 - Emerald Empire:

Quote

Now a village only in name, Clear Water Village was once a tiny speck, a minor fishing settlement at the mouth of the River of Gold, overlooking Earthquake Fish Bay. Despite its size, it was an important village to the Yasuki family, providing the wealth of the sea and feeding the clan with daily catches from its unusually warm waters.

We don't specifically know which side of the river it's on - but if it's at the mouth of the river (or at least just before the falls and rapids) it's either next to Hida Castle or across the water from it.

To add extra confusion, though, the description above implies fishing in the sea - which is odd if the Golden River between Clear Water Village and Earthquake Fish Bay is more or less unnavigable.

I think it may be a case that the rapids are very short - such that the river reaches clear water village navigable, but clear water village extends between this point and the sea and has a seafront harbour as well (since the Kaiu Wave Wall is specifically talking about attacks from the sea). The rapids and falls might simply be the part of the river 'next' to Clear Water Village.

Indeed, seems like the black crane estate should be more south, near friendly traveler village.

But the map does have a few mistakes (not so bad though). Like in EE, there is a village that is located in phoenix lands but should actually be more toward the west, in dragon lands (red horn village? The name).

Just to add more confusion - the tidal landbridge (page 126, Emerald Empire)

Quote

The Tidal Landbridge connecting Crane and Crab Clan holdings is one of the wonders of the natural world. It crosses the mouth of Earthquake Fish Bay, and when exposed by low tide, it creates a valuable shortcut for traders. Control of the landbridge has been contested for centuries, and both clans maintain a garrison on their side of the bridge, ostensibly for registering travelers.

In 715, the Hida garrison was attacked by Shadowlands forces and only saved by thetimely intervention of Daidoji Masashigi, of the Crane Clan, who led his forces over the bridge. Masashigi died fighting as the tide came in, and the Crab erected a shrine in his honor that stands to this day.

So....where is the landbridge?

Someone said Shadowlands has a better map of the region?

Because we're told it crosses the mouth of the bay, but it runs between crane and crab holdings...and that the crab side can be attacked by the shadowlands.

• there are 5 ways in and out of the bay by water (see above):
  • One from the North
  • One from the East
  • One from the South
  • Two from the West
• Of those, the western ones can be discounted as they lead into lands south of the Kaiu wall, so at best between one crab territory and another, at worst into the shadowlands.
• The Northern one is the Golden River, which we're told is an unnavigable stretch of rapids and falls for the last bit, and is basically where clear water village is. Plus, if the land bridge crossed the river, I the phrase 'mouth of the bay' feels unlikely - you'd think the river itself would be mentioned.
• The southern exit leads into the ocean - but since the southern tip of the lower island is where friendly traveller village is and there are no other mapped settlements, it seems unlikely that the Crane hold one end
• That leaves the western exit. Which makes a degree of sense. If the land bridge connected the upper and lower islands it would have been convenient when the yasuki were a crane family and might explain why part of their territory is on the northern island and part on the southern. The crane-crab war was long enough ago that control could indeed have been contested for centuries, and the war itself might explain why both ends of the bridge aren't on yasuki lands.

5 minutes ago, Avatar111 said:

Indeed, seems like the black crane estate should be more south, near friendly traveler village.

But the map does have a few mistakes (not so bad though). Like in EE, there is a village that is located in phoenix lands but should actually be more toward the west, in dragon lands (red horn village? The name).

As ever, don't poke the plotholes of rokugani geography. (Not that we don't try) 😎

The most recent fiction - Tactical Maneuvers - has the Fox (Minor) Clan havng trouble with a visiting Lion Clan dignitary who's blatantly trying to start an 'incident', There is an observation that "When one had the Lion Clan for a neighbor, troubled borders were unremarkable" - but the problem is that the Castle of the Fox is about as far from Lion lands as you can get without either being on the borders of the Empire itself or being within another great clan's heartlands.

Which was, in fact, why the Emperor put them there after he created the Minor Clan out of the remnants of the Ki-Rin left after the Matsu got through with them.

39 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Just to add more confusion - the tidal landbridge (page 126, Emerald Empire)

So....where is the landbridge?

Someone said Shadowlands has a better map of the region?

Because we're told it crosses the mouth of the bay, but it runs between crane and crab holdings...and that the crab side can be attacked by the shadowlands.

• there are 5 ways in and out of the bay by water (see above):
  • One from the North
  • One from the East
  • One from the South
  • Two from the West
• Of those, the western ones can be discounted as they lead into lands south of the Kaiu wall, so at best between one crab territory and another, at worst into the shadowlands.
• The Northern one is the Golden River, which we're told is an unnavigable stretch of rapids and falls for the last bit, and is basically where clear water village is. Plus, if the land bridge crossed the river, I the phrase 'mouth of the bay' feels unlikely - you'd think the river itself would be mentioned.
• The southern exit leads into the ocean - but since the southern tip of the lower island is where friendly traveller village is and there are no other mapped settlements, it seems unlikely that the Crane hold one end
• That leaves the western exit. Which makes a degree of sense. If the land bridge connected the upper and lower islands it would have been convenient when the yasuki were a crane family and might explain why part of their territory is on the northern island and part on the southern. The crane-crab war was long enough ago that control could indeed have been contested for centuries, and the war itself might explain why both ends of the bridge aren't on yasuki lands.

As ever, don't poke the plotholes of rokugani geography. (Not that we don't try) 😎

The most recent fiction - Tactical Maneuvers - has the Fox (Minor) Clan havng trouble with a visiting Lion Clan dignitary who's blatantly trying to start an 'incident', There is an observation that "When one had the Lion Clan for a neighbor, troubled borders were unremarkable" - but the problem is that the Castle of the Fox is about as far from Lion lands as you can get without either being on the borders of the Empire itself or being within another great clan's heartlands.

Which was, in fact, why the Emperor put them there after he created the Minor Clan out of the remnants of the Ki-Rin left after the Matsu got through with them.

tough life! I guess we can't really trust the geography more than the rules

but at some point, I have to understand, these are big projects with many people working on them (that care more or less since it is a company and they all have their "moods" and don't necessarily see L5R more than just the next work to do).

and no point for FFG to double check it more or fix it as probably it doesn't have that many customers, or potential customers, to be worth it.

And there goes my idea of using it as part of the Eternal Danger Islands. Maybe in the new canon is just only an island...

Screencapped from my new Shadowlands PDF.

I had a feeling there were major changes. The temple of the Morning Sun is far the north from where it used to be. I'd say, roughly where Wall Above the Ocena Village used to be be.

I assume Shadow Under Garden City disappeared again.

9 hours ago, UnitOmega said:

Screencapped from my new Shadowlands PDF.

Your who the what now?

To Drivethrurpg!

LOL.

Again. Do not succumb to madness! Just figure out where it is in your Rokugan. And run with it.

I had totally forgotten about EE reference to a land bridge. BUT if we divide the Upper Island Three ways instead of two ways we might reconcile it. There is a Crane slice on the bottom centered on the Temple of the Morning Sun. In the middle we have the Black Crane Estates. And on the top we have Daidoji holdings. Its also possible that The Daidoji holding favor the East Coast and the Yasuki are primarily on the West Coast making the division (ultimately) a pair of diagnosis lines. Now if we make that assumption and guess that the land bridge cuts across the Islands more or less on the same latitude as Hida Castle, then (ha ha!) we have room for Crane and Yasuki to hold separate garrisons near that point to keep an eye on each other. My guess. (I certainly don't know for sure.)

Magnus Grendel is correct that the Black Crane Estates are on a river. But I think the book is referencing to the longer River its cuts off from to the North (at the point of the Fox Estates). The Yasuki don't have any holding that far north. But they have a lot of trade interests that far north.

while changing landscapes is mentioned as one of the "creepy" features of the shadowlands, there's pretty clear evidence that geography of Rokugan regularly changes far more than it would in the real world.. and that's even when you consider that in the real world rivers can appear or disappear over night. So I'm thinking we should be asking the question, "When does/did the black crane estates overlook the bay?". It should also be noted that that the Yasuki leaving the crane may have caused irregularities that haven't really been worked out yet. Perhaps it's intended for the temple of the morning sun to actually be cut off from other crane lands.

Honestly I appreciate the effort, but it seems to me that the geography in both maps and descriptive are a bit of a mess. With the potential for immersion breaking out-of-character confusion for both GM and players.

At least with the helpful comments here I know enough to mark up my own map so I can give my players a consistent story.

So this is where I am at right now.

<img>

• Clear Water Village shifted for it to be on the shore
• Golden Cliffs Village (named after larch trees) added - this will be a minor lord for my PC's to serve (and the more I dig into the Yasuki the more I think we are going to have such fun with this )
• Black Crane Estates left in position of Shadowlands map
• Friendly Traveller Village as well
• Assumed Crane hold most of the northern 'island' - and according to lore they still have an outpost at the tidal landbridge, which I assume crosses at Clear Water Village

Thoughts?

That all looks plausible and more importantly workable. Good luck with your campaign!