I have fun with this list

Darth maul: Hate(68pts)

Count Dooku: Scimitar, Heightened perception(68)

General Grievous: Impervium Plating, Soulless One(63)

List total: 199

Dooku shoots at seven and cloaks. Maul spends all of his force tokens and gets them back. Grievous flanks.

If you wish and fly well you can change out impervium plating for Outmanuver to bump up grievous.

4 hours ago, Squark said:

My immediate thought here is that I think hate should scale based on hp (or base size as a short hand). Vader and Kylo are only getting a few force out of hate, but large ships like the infiltrator or Hate-Kanan can gain tons of force over the course of the game, making it easy to top off force that's normally balanced on the premise you get one back a turn.

Even more when you get dooku and gonk

3 hours ago, Orcdruid said:

I have fun with this list

Darth maul: Hate(68pts)

Count Dooku: Scimitar, Heightened perception(68)

General Grievous: Impervium Plating, Soulless One(63)

List total: 199

Dooku shoots at seven and cloaks. Maul spends all of his force tokens and gets them back. Grievous flanks.

If you wish and fly well you can change out impervium plating for Outmanuver to bump up grievous.

Pretty much my Sidekicks list, but with Hate on Dooku and Outmaneuver on Grievous.

I find Dooku needs the recharging more than the I7 shooting, as I use up a lot of Force with Dooku's ability/dice modding. It is a super fun list to fly.

6 hours ago, Frimmel said:

Maul with Hate isn't quite up to NPE but it is kind of close. When I have to give my opponent a benefit for doing what I need to do to win the game that is the makings of an NPE.

I think this is pretty much the point of Hate though. First Order is notorious for abilities that punish you actually firing at them. It's part of the shtick. Seps having a smidgen of that now kind of makes sense.

47 minutes ago, Ikka said:

Pretty much my Sidekicks list, but with Hate on Dooku and Outmaneuver on Grievous.

I find Dooku needs the recharging more than the I7 shooting, as I use up a lot of Force with Dooku's ability/dice modding. It is a super fun list to fly.

Have you tried running naked Grievous and then putting Palpatine on Maul or Dooku?

I've gone back and forth on it since local players suggested it, but I kinda think Hate should be priced based on Force charges (and with a nerfed cost for higher-force ships). A cost of 1/3/5 or 2/4/6 points on 1/2/3 Force Rating ships doesn't seem wrong to me. Hate going up 2-3 points on Maul, Dooku, or Vader is a real-enough nerf. Meanwhile, making it a bit better on a ship like a Generic Inquisitor would also be nice.

Infiltrators in general... hard to say. Generic and O-66 I have no read on. Maybe they're even overpriced... 10 points more than a Lambda with the same statline but better dial might be a bit much. However, I can't be sure of that. My guess is the non-Sith haven't seen enough table time to get a good read on it.

Dooku and Maul can be very potent damage dealers. The amount of damage that a double-attacking Maul can throw out is pretty crazy. I get that he's a bit of a glass cannon, but it can still feel a bit "yikes" since he has to take so few upgrades to get there. Hate is stapled on, Grievous can be excessively strong for it's cost in the right list (but technically kinda optional). Anything else is an extra you don't really "need." And so a baseline Maul build comes in at 71 points. Feels really potent for that point cost, even with the limitations of how easily he can fold to massed fire.

Certainly, no major nerfs seem necessary. I wouldn't mind a light nudge on some of the cards. Grievous is a Rechargeable Shield Upgrade for 3 points...

Just looking at them from space and not from the pilots controls, it looks like FFG might have actually gotten this ship right; it’s good enough to play well with and win, but it loses as well to other good lists and pilots.

I clearly see nothing here to nerf to be sure.

Why all the Haters? ....get it “Hate” -ers? 😂

This is kinda funny to me.

Like, I agree, sure, Hate is probably an undercosted card.

But, we're talking undercosted by like a point or two, for a card that's usually one per list. And that's basically all anyone has had to say about the Infiltrator in a two page thread! For a ship that's largely been missing from the top tables!

1 hour ago, Ikka said:

Pretty much my Sidekicks list, but with Hate on Dooku and Outmaneuver on Grievous.

I find Dooku needs the recharging more than the I7 shooting, as I use up a lot of Force with Dooku's ability/dice modding. It is a super fun list to fly.

Our dice roll different. I either roll results or blanks eyballs are rare for me. I also prefer the option of the PS kill for aces.

48 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

Just looking at them from space and not from the pilots controls, it looks like FFG might have actually gotten this ship right; it’s good enough to play well with and win, but it loses as well to other good lists and pilots.

I clearly see nothing here to nerf to be sure.

Why all the Haters? 😂

This. [And: have had your tea already today? ]

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I've gone back and forth on it since local players suggested it, but I kinda think Hate should be priced based on Force charges (and with a nerfed cost for higher-force ships).

Certainly, no major nerfs seem necessary. I wouldn't mind a light nudge on some of the cards. Grievous is a Rechargeable Shield Upgrade for 3 points...

One of the issues with Hate is also that, while thematic, it is the most useful force upgrade right now, punishes you for playing the game, and several factions are locked out from it.

Grievous crew is quite good, when you do not need the pilot. Shield upgrade has the advantage of changing half points for the Infiltrator.

6 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

This. [And: have had your tea already today? ]

Yes, thanks for caring 😊

One of the issues with Hate is also that, while thematic, it is the most useful force upgrade right now, punishes you for playing the game, and several factions are locked out from it.

Because the other factions SHOULDN’T hate 😉

Though I’d love Heroic on TIE/LNs

3 hours ago, Clutterbuck said:

Have you tried running naked Grievous and then putting Palpatine on Maul or Dooku?

Not yet- I've found that running Grievous with the upgrades acts as a great distraction, the enemy has to deal with him so they will usually split their squad and that helps my Infiltrators a lot.

I like the versatility of the Infiltrator. It reminds me of the first edition Jumpmaster in a way: Large base, barrel rolls, torpedo--but without being obviously overpowered.

-------------------------

I really like the Seperatist faction, but they're not "there" yet. I'm not sure how the upcoming Hyena bomber droid is going to change things--so it's a hair beefier than a drone and can drop bombs?

I guess it'll be used like the Imperial "Bomber" and be more of a missile/torpedo carrier than a bomber.

I don't feel this faction will really start finding it's groove until the Nantex fighter gets added to the stable. That ship is crazy! I can't wait.

I think HP Dooku is a more unfun ship than Hate. They got rid of Whisper's cloaking after an attack, only to give it to a ship that can get 4 force.

******* about that particular card aside, the ship doesn't seem OP or UP. I would agree with costing Hate based on agility though. It is pretty discouraging to see Maul use 4 or 5 force in a turn of him shooting just to see him get back to full after shooting at him.

I don't consider it an NPE though. Mostly I'm more sad that the light side doesn't have a power to regen force.

17 minutes ago, Force Majeure said:

I'm not sure how the upcoming Hyena bomber droid is going to change things--so it's a hair beefier than a drone and can drop bombs?

I'm looking at the Hyena as a good filler ship- it is similar to the TIE bomber in a lot of ways. Since currently I don't really run Vulture droids (they die way too quick for me), I think that Hyenas will give me a lot of flexibility in list building, depending on point cost. I'm hoping that it will be a good compliment to the Infiltrator, lessening the need for the fairly high cost (depending on loadout) Belbullab-22 as a wingman.

It's a strong ship but it's also a lynchpin, if it goes down the rest of the list burns up quick. It does have a good dial for it's size though, and cloak helps it out tremendously.

I don't play it myself, but I played against it at SOS for the first time, and it was really fun to fly against, with some top shenanigans.

There is nothing remotely NPE or OP about deckedout-hating Maul/Dooku, facing Rebel beaf they melt so easily it is hillarious.

Their dial is ok, but without blue turns it is hardly as good as described in this thread. And with only access to a red barrelroll, the comparison to Telgar is puzzling to say the least. Furthermore, without boost, they get so easily caught/cornered and relying soley on the force charges, which cannot save you from rolling blanks, cannot save them in the end.

Dooku is the standout of the faction and just better than Maul. In the games I have played against, and played separatists, Dooku has been the mvp for the faction.

Ran this last night vs Anakin and two ps2 Arcs with 7th gunner:

Count Dooku (61)
Hate (3)
Scimitar (4)
Kraken (10)

0-66 (55)
DRK-1 Probe Droids (6)

Wat Tambor (43)
Trick Shot (2)
Impervium Plating (6)
Soulless One (10)
Total: 200

Dooku and 066 keep calcs thanks to Kraken that proc Wats ability (cause Siths are range 1 of ships a lot). The probe droids setup alpha. They are sooooo nice! Love these things. I got three full mod shots on an arc on first engagement and arc went to 1 hull. Wat is a beastly manbot. Impervium discarded an early crit which was Fuel Leak (phew!). Near end of game, Dooku on 3 hull remaining just played dare with anakin. Remained cloaked with a focus + lock staring at Anakin at range 2 daring him to shoot Dooku. Anakin chose not to shoot. This is the advantage of Dooku vs Maul that I think brings him over the top. Vs Aces you can just remain cloaked until they fire. Game ended with only half Anakin left and all three of my ships around half points.

066 didnt do much with his ability. The one time I was gonna use his ability, I already had a lock on Anakin. He is there for the Calc mostly though to help Wats ability, and he was crucial there. Wat was amazing. I loved him with these two Siths.

Only 1 game in, so still needs more runs, but I like what these two Siths and Wat brought to the table. Lots of beef and lots of fire power. Sith dials are insane. sloops, 5k, 1 hards. Yikes!

15 hours ago, Force Majeure said:

I like the versatility of the Infiltrator. It reminds me of the first edition Jumpmaster in a way: Large base, barrel rolls, torpedo--but without being obviously overpowered.

-------------------------

I really like the Seperatist faction, but they're not "there" yet. I'm not sure how the upcoming Hyena bomber droid is going to change things--so it's a hair beefier than a drone and can drop bombs?

I guess it'll be used like the Imperial "Bomber" and be more of a missile/torpedo carrier than a bomber.

I don't feel this faction will really start finding it's groove until the Nantex fighter gets added to the stable. That ship is crazy! I can't wait.

The Hyena's actually probably going to really shake things up for the Separatists. Just from the spread, we know it's going to be a significant ordnance carrier: it's got at least one Torpedo Slot, two Missile slots, and two Device slots, as well as a Sensor slot, if the cards are an indication. We know it's going to have a Relay slot, since one is included in the spread. It has a thicker hull, making it competitive with most snub fighters for other factions (certainly Kihraxz Fighter, Starviper, and X-Wings). I think it's really going to become a powerful support ship. Plus, it can still benefit from and contribute to Networked Calculations, which the Belbullab and Sith Infiltrator can't do. Furthermore, with two device slots and a sensor, it can carry a Proton Bombs and a DRK droids loadout with launch capability, or use the Bomblet Generator to threaten Separatist and Republic formations, carry a Seismic Charge to knock out entrenched Vultures, or carry Proximity Mines and fly out ahead to drop for board control and keep opponents busy while you set up killboxes and stack Calculates on the second wave of Vultures you're flying in a swarm. I'm really looking forward to it.

27 minutes ago, feltipern1 said:

Plus, it can still benefit from and contribute to Networked Calculations, which the Belbullab and Sith Infiltrator can't do.

Just a slight correction. O-66, Feethan's and any Infiltrator or Belbullab with Kraken can contribute a calculate token to a Vulture or Hyena within range 1. The Networked Calculations is what allows Hyenas and Vultures to spend them.

6 hours ago, wurms said:

0-66 (55)
DRK-1 Probe Droids (6)

Did you use these Probe Droids? Were they effective? I didn't find them to be all that helpful when I've deployed them, but when the Hyena comes to town I'll be launching them left and right.

The Hyena is going to make great use of the Probes, I believe.

I hear Nerf, Nerf, Nerf...

And I ask, what tournaments have Infiltrators won in this past month that I missed that is causing so much hate?

1 hour ago, Force Majeure said:

Did you use these Probe Droids? Were they effective? I didn't find them to be all that helpful when I've deployed them, but when the Hyena comes to town I'll be launching them left and right.

They're pretty useful when jam is around as well. Maybe just not 6 points good...