On 4/24/2019 at 1:20 PM, gjnido said:

Hmm.

It seem to me that the limitation has to do with the fact that the coordinated ship has to be stressed when AP chooses it for its ability to work.

Nope,

- a normal coordinate is a granted action. And to DO actions you mustn’t be stressed at all.

- AP-5 can just plain normal coordinate another ship: he has the symbol on his card.

- AP-5’s SPECIAL ability states that he also can 'choose to coordinate a ship with exactly one stress token'.

And ONLY in this SPECIAL case that ship is allowed to do actions!

So at the exact point when AP chooses his target: either NONE stress — or ONE stress.

If the ship gains ANOTHER stress during the coordinate-queue: it’s over...

59 minutes ago, Tellonius said:

Nope,

- a normal coordinate is a granted action. And to DO actions you mustn’t be stressed at all.

- AP-5 can just plain normal coordinate another ship: he has the symbol on his card.

- AP-5’s SPECIAL ability states that he also can 'choose to coordinate a ship with exactly one stress token'.

And ONLY in this SPECIAL case that ship is allowed to do actions!

So at the exact point when AP chooses his target: either NONE stress — or ONE stress.

If the ship gains ANOTHER stress during the coordinate-queue: it’s over...

it's not that simple.

you can always coordinate a stressed ship. you don't fail the coordinate action just because the ship you're coordinating cannot perform an action. AP-5s pilot ability states that if the ship he coordinates has exactly one stress token, that ship can perform actions.

the question remains. can a ship that doesn't have any stress tokens get coordinated by AP-5, perform a red action or a white action linked into a red action, get a stress and trigger an ability (such as vectored thrusters or the focus action given from jakes pilot ability) - and then perform that action. or has the window for being coordinated already passed when the first action has been performed and is AP-5s pilot ability no longer active because of that? (also relevant if you coordinate a ship with a stress token and for how long that ship can perform actions, what might stop it and so on).

depending on whether the coordinate action ends as soon as the first action is performed, a ship could trigger AP-5s ability when it has one stress and then go on to do as many actions as it can, no matter the amount of stress it gains. also, AP-5 could be judged to work even if the ship he coordinates doesn't start with a stress, but that it would kick in as soon as that ship gains a stress, letting it perform another action or more if it doesn't gain more stress from those actions.

i'm still firmly in the camp that coordinating ends as soon as the ship being coordinated has performed an action. sai is just an example that was ruled in accordance with that interpretation.

It's (quite) simple...

Please read in the latest rules reference 1.0.3. the entries linked actions , coordinate an (especially) abiliy queue (plus the examples in the appendix).

TLDR: its all about ABILITY QUEUE.

1.
jupp, a normal coordinate does not fail if the coordinated ship has a stress token.

2.a)
Of course, AP-5 can just plain coordinate. He's got the action on his action bar.

2.b)
BUT he also can coordiante a ship that is stressed (but has no more than one stress token). And this ship is then explicitly allowed to do actions (plural).

3.
Start thinking in ABILITY QUEUE s. It's really all about that. I think you're confused somehow with your 'definition' of 'timing windows' and how long an actions lasts .

4.
Nope. Coordinate doen't end ! It's all about the ability queue. Coordinate only starts an ability queue for another ship.

--> Rules Reference page 12: linked action clearly states that a linked action can be done regardless the source for the initial action.

--> AP-5s ability 'you may chose a stressed ship' triggers only once at the beginning (in his own ability queue).

--> As soon as AP has coordinated a ship --> that ships ability queue starts! It performs actions, gets stress, whatsoever...

If a ship gains a stress token that usually ends its abiltity queue (and cancels all other actions waiting in the queue).

With Ap-5:
If the ship starts unstressed - plain normal ability queue (one action, may link into another; but as soon as it gains a stress it can no longer perform actions)

If the ship starts with (exactely) one stress - plain normal ability queue ---> exept when it gains another stress --> then it can no longer perform actions!

Maybe try thinking like programming a computer program? "do this - then do that - if xyz then abc - ..."

On 4/24/2019 at 9:13 AM, thespaceinvader said:

No he couldn't. Other than the action provided by ap5 he cannot perform actions whilst stressed.

Nope. Linked actions can be linked of off coordinated one.

2 hours ago, Tellonius said:

It's (quite) simple...

Please read in the latest rules reference 1.0.3. the entries linked actions , coordinate an (especially) abiliy queue (plus the examples in the appendix).

TLDR: its all about ABILITY QUEUE. 

1.
jupp, a normal coordinate does not fail if the coordinated ship has a stress token.

2.a)
Of course, AP-5 can just plain coordinate. He's got the action on his action bar.

2.b)
BUT he also can coordiante a ship that is stressed (but has no more than one stress token). And this ship is then explicitly allowed to do actions (plural).

3.
Start thinking in ABILITY QUEUE s. It's really all about that. I think you're confused somehow with your 'definition' of 'timing windows' and how long an actions lasts .

 4.
Nope. Coordinate doen't end ! It's all about the ability queue. Coordinate only starts an ability queue for another ship.

--> Rules Reference page 12: linked action clearly states that a linked action can be done regardless the source for the initial action.

--> AP-5s ability 'you may chose a stressed ship' triggers only once at the beginning (in his own ability queue).

--> As soon as AP has coordinated a ship --> that ships ability queue starts! It performs actions, gets  stres  s, whatsoever...

If a ship gains a stress token that usually ends its abiltity queue (and cancels all other actions waiting in the queue).

With Ap-5:
If the ship starts unstressed - plain normal ability queue (one action, may link into another; but as soon as it gains a stress it can no longer perform actions)

If the ship starts with (exactely) one stress - plain normal ability queue ---> exept when it gains another stress --> then it can no longer perform actions!

Maybe try thinking like programming a computer program? "do this - then do that - if xyz then abc - ..."

i dare say you seem confused. nothing is ever all about the ability queue, you still need to use the other rules to know how to put things into and how to resolve them in the ability queue.

2a and 2b - technically, there is no difference between coordinating an unstressed ship or a stressed one. AP-5 can coordinate ships that have any amount of stress tokens, they just wouldn't be able to perform the action the coordination grants them if they have more than one stress.

3. i'm already thinking in ability queues. that's needed for almost all interactions between more than one effect happening at the same timing in this game. since you're so focused on ability queues, maybe you would care to define player effects and game effects for all of us? some things are obviously player effects and some effects are obviously game effects. separate parts of the same abilities and actions can easily fall into both of these categories, or at least different ones, even if they're still the same ability or action.

4. you have read the part about coordinate as well though, haven't you?` you're stating that coordinate doesn't end. that's a ridiculous statement, since it would mean that a coordination starting goes on for the rest of the game (possibly even into the next game played, but i'm not going there ). that would mean that any ship coordinated by AP-5 could either perform actions while having one stress token, or that a ship that has one stress token when coordinated by AP-5 could perform actions while stressed (no matter the amount of stress) for the rest of the game.

--> yes, linked actions can be done regardless of the source of that action. that's very well established already.

--> that's not what his ability says. it says: "While you coordinate, if you chose a ship with exactly 1 stress token, it can perform actions.". what that means in game terms is what we're debating in this thread. you have read his card, right? sounds like you're back to believing only AP-5 can coordinate stressed ships thanks to his ability - and that's simply not true.

--> there is no such thing as an ability queue belonging to a ship. a lot of abilities from many different sources can be put into an ability queue. that's sort of the point of the ability queue, to resolve effects in the right order, no matter their source.

again, AP-5 states that while he coordinates (get that it's relevant when coordination is finished?), if he chooses a ship with exactly one stress token, that ship can perform actions. actions. not an action. that's weird wording, since it contradicts itself. coordination occurs up to the point the ship being coordinated has performed an action according to the rules reference.

at least we've reached the same conclusion, but it's still not nearly as simple as you state.

LOL!

Yeah, we kinda lost the topic.

What exactly is the confusion?

AP-5 can coordinate stressed ships. These ships can perform actions. They even can perform linked actions and end up with two stress tokens.

All this is true.

The 'while' in 'while you coordinate' refers to the time the player needs to resolve APs coordinate: so declaring the action, measuring range, finally choosing a valid ship.

(It does NOT refer to a 'timing window' during which APs coordinate is 'active' and while he kinda 'watches/observes' the chosen ship following his orders...)

Coordinating doesn’t 'occur until a specific point': it’s an action. You declare, chose a target, BAM. This step in the ability queue is resolved.

The word ‘actions' is well chosen because it’s true: the coordinated ship can perform a 1st action, and can probably link into a 2nd one.

Nothing prohibits that linked action. See rules reference p.12 linked actions.

' coordination  occurs up to the point the ship being coordinated  has performed an a  ction according to the rules reference.  '

where did you get that from?

9 minutes ago, Tellonius said:

LOL!

Yeah, we kinda lost the topic.

What exactly is the confusion?

AP-5 can coordinate stressed ships. These ships can perform actions. They even can perform linked actions and end up with two stress tokens.

All this is true.

The 'while' in 'while you coordinate' refers to the time the player needs to resolve APs coordinate: so declaring the action, measuring range, finally choosing a valid ship.

(It does NOT refer to a 'timing window' during which APs coordinate is 'active' and while he kinda 'watches/observes' the chosen ship following his orders...)

in that case, i was mistaken, we did not reach the same conclusion.

that specifies the timings. the linked action, which is red, is not the action the coordinated ship chose as it's coordinated action. therefore, when the ship performs the linked action, AP-5 is no longer coordinating the ship - and so the ship can no longer perform actions since it's stressed.

Ah, OK.

The points 1 to 3 are a rough 'walkthrough' what to do! Nothing more. The actual rules and what to do when and what that means are elsewhere.

Maybe that helps: a ship can (almost) always perform linked actions. Regardless the source that is.

So, as nothing denies a linked action after being coordinated, linked actions are allowed.

2 minutes ago, Tellonius said:

Ah, OK.

The points 1 to 3 are a rough 'walkthrough' what to do! Nothing more. The actual rules and what to do when and what that means are elsewhere.

you're saying we should only follow certain parts of the rules and that specific rules that pertain to specific abilities have no impact? there are no rough walkthroughs in the rules reference. they are the rules and we should follow them.

so you don't have an argument. we do what the rules say, we do not do what the rules do not say. coordination is finished when the first action is performed. AP-5 is no longer coordinating after that, which means his ability is no longer active.

do you have other rules that support his ability goes on after the timing his card specifies?

linked actions can always be performed, yes, but that's just linked actions, not linked actions under the influence of special abilities that let a ship perform actions while stressed while that ship is being coordinated.

do you have examples of other actions that keep going on even while other effects come into play? to my knowledge, there are none. boosting is resolved, the the boost is finished and effects that occur after boosting kicks in. it's the same for coordinate.

if you want to link an action to an action that was coordinated to you, that's fine, but you are no longer being coordinated.

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you're saying we should only follow certain parts of the rules and that specific rules that pertain to specific abilities have no impact? there are no rough walkthroughs in the rules reference. they are the rules and we should follow them.

well, no. The 'rough walkthrough' is just not everything/ not complete/ doesn't cover every possible situation.
e.g. if i would just follow the points 1 to 3: point 3 says 'the chosen ship performs one action' --- there's nothing about stress!?!? --- so if I coordinate stress becomes irrelevant?
No, of course not.

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coordination is finished when the first action is performed. AP-5 is no longer coordinating after that, which means his ability is no longer active.

I still do not agree with the term 'end of an action/ action is finished'. I prefer perform an action . (Hence my statment that there is no 'end' of an action.
It's all in the ability queue: you perform an action/ you resolve it's effects and then the next action...

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do you have other rules that support his ability goes on after the timing his card specifies?

AP-5s card says '...it can perform actions.' There you have it.

If it wouldn't be allowed they would have worded it like advanced sensors 'After you reveal your dial , you may perform 1 action. If you do, you cannot perform another action during your activation.' That's pretty clear!

And the text for linked actions in the rules reference, see above: linked actions are always allowed/ there are no special restrictions to performing linked actions

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linked actions can always be performed, yes, but that's just linked actions, not linked actions under the influence of special abilities that let a ship perform actions while stressed while that ship is being coordinate  d. 

yes, they can always be performed. Please show me any statement or rules that restricts linked actions! Regarding coordinate. (There are restrictions, like ionised or advanced sensors...

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if you want to link an action to an action that was coordinated to you, tha  t's fine, but you are no longer being coordinated  . 

I won't stat that the linked action is coordinated, no.
And the coordinate action is fully resolved as soon as AP has declared a target.
But AP-5s ability is still affecting my ship, because he does not say only one action or you can't link from that action !

He say in fact actions, leaving the field open for multiple actions: linked actions/ actions granted by effects triggered by the coordinated action/ whatever new rules will come actions/ ...

@Tellonius - please read AP-5s card again.

the effect is only active "While you coordinate,". thus, when the coordinate action ends is very relevant indeed.

of course stressed ships cannot perform actions and every description in the rules reference doesn't cover all possible situations. we have to follow all the rules. the rules reference state that ships cannot perform actions while stressed, so that's given.

there i have what? part of his card text? it still specifies a timing, while you coordinate. again - do you have any examples or references that indicate his effect should go on beyond that timing window? what you are arguing comes down to that as long as AP-5s ability was in the action queue, it's still relevant even after it has resolved? or you're saying that the coordinate effect (started by the coordinate action AP-5 has taken) is still going on after the ship coordinated has performed an action, since the ship has chosen to put more effects into the ability queue?

please note that actions and effects need to start and finish. a ship is locking while it's attempting to lock. after it has acquired a lock or the effect fails, it is no longer locking. a ship is barrel rolling and boosting much in the same way. they're not ongoing status effects like evading. so, yes, you perform an action, then you can take another action. there are timings in between, though. after you perform an action and before you perform an action.

there are no restrictions for linked actions that i know of, except of course ships cannot perform actions while stressed and ships cannot perform other actions than focus during their perform action step if they're ionized.

AP-5s effect is not fully resolved as soon as he has chosen a target, no. it's on his card. it clearly says "While you coordinate.". this means his ability is only active during the time he is a coordinating ship. coordination is finished when the coordinated ship has performed an action, as stated in the rules reference.

his text does say actions, yes. that has been mentioned several times already.

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of course stressed ships cannot perform actions and every description in the rules reference doesn't cover all possible situations. we have to follow all the rules. the rules reference state that ships cannot perform actions while stressed, so that's given.

Golden Rules. The card ability takes precedence.
Here: a stresssed ship can't perform actions --> but AP-5: if it has exactely one stress token it can perform actions
Do you agree?

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please note that actions and effects need to start and finish. a ship is locking while it's attempting to lock. after it has acquired a lock or the effect fails, it is no longer locking. a ship is barrel rolling and boosting much in the same way. they're not ongoing status effects like evading. so, yes, you perform an action, then you can take another action. there are timings in between, though. after you perform an action and before you perform an action.

puuuh, well. No.
Actions are performed . Then they are performed. I've never read anything about a start or end of an action?!!
Please show me any text that refers to that.

But every single action has a lasting effect.
- If I perform the evade action I gain an evade token . And this token stays with the ship till the end of the round. All the while that ship is evading (official game term) .
- If I perform a boost action I change my position (permanently).

Sometimes action are altered by a card text: e.g. collision detector lets you move through obstacles which is normally not allowed .

Well, AP-5 lets you perform actions when you are stressed.

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AP-5s effect is not fully resolved as soon as he has chosen a target, no. it's on his card. it clearly says "While you coordinate.". this means his ability is only active during the time he is a coordinating ship. coordination is finished when the coordinated ship has performed an action, as stated in the rules reference.

His action is indeed performed as soon as he has chosen a target. The action did not fail = 'fully performed'.
(You could say he started his coordinate action, choose a valid target and thus ended his step/ instance in the ability queue. But that's not game-terminology.)
Then you proceed to the next instance of the ability queue: that choosen ship performs an action plus linked action or otherwise granted actions. And whoooops it may even do so if it is stressed! Because it is written on the card.

There is no START or END of an action!

And the term 'while you coordinate' is just the wording they use.

Please read the rules reference again, p. 8 coordinate, additionally:

While a ship coordinates, the coordinate fails if no friendly ship can be chosen.

While a ship coordinates, if you choose a stressed ship, it can not perform actions. (because of rules )

While a ship coordinates, if you chose a ship with exactely one stress token, it can perform actions (and link off of them because of rules).

AP-5 coordinates a friendly ship:
His player announces the coordinate action, measures range, choses a valid target - and the coordinate action is resolved (ended!), now the next instance of the ability queue takes place: the coordinated ship my perform an action. Oh, and it can perform actions even if it is stressed.

Please help!

It all comes down to one question:

Scenario:
AP-5 coordinates a friendly ship that is stressed.
That ship performs one action.

Now can that ship perform a linked (red) action (and gain a second stress token)?

20 minutes ago, Tellonius said:

Please help!

It all comes down to one question:

Scenario:
AP-5 coordinates a friendly ship that is stressed.
That ship performs one action.

Now can that ship perform a linked (red) action (and gain a second stress token)?

No. As has repeatedly been stated. The timing for its permission to perform actions is whilst AP5 is coordinating. Once it has done the coordinated action AP5 is no longer coordinating, so actions triggered by the coordinated action cannot be completed, because the ship trying to perform them is stressed, and stressed ships cannot perform actions.

This is clear (though it could, as repeatedly acknowledged, be clearer), you're just ignoring what you're being told and making stuff up to prove that you're correct. And you're not.

🍿 😃

@thespaceinvader states it suffciently, @Tellonius .

while you coordinate is a specific timing with a beginning and an ending.

daredevil is another card that has its effect restricted to the timing of while an action is performed, just like Kare Kun.

there are alot of effects that come down to timing in this game, so effects need to begin and end.

the rules don't need to state that actions begin and end. they simply state what steps are taken when an action is taken. that action has then ended - and you can go on to effects that trigger after that action.