Is AP-5 allowed to perfirm a focus action if Jake performs a boost or barrel roll at range 1?

I think he can, but our local TO rules that because he doesn't have a focus action on his action bar, he cannot. My view is that it states perform a focus action and therefore is irrevevant to the action bar...

Thanks!

yes, he can. jake gives him the focus action specifically. it comes from his pilot ability, doesn't need to come from anywhere else. just like cad bane can let any ship boost after dropping a device, or any ship equipped with debris gambit can perform an evade action.

And what about the other way around? When being Coordinated by AP while, can Jake perform a reposition action and then follow it up with focusing? I tend to interpret "no", but AP's language specifically permits "actions", not "an action".

28 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

And what about the other way around? When being Coordinated by AP while, can Jake perform a reposition action and then follow it up with focusing? I tend to interpret "no", but AP's language specifically permits "actions", not "an action".

As long as Jake isn't stressed initially it works. IE AP-5 coordinates Jake at I1, he barrel rolls and passes a focus, then he boosts per the RZ-1's ability and he then can still focus since he only has 1 stress as AP-5's ability has as its limiter. When Jake's init is reached he can then clear the stress with a Blue and either lock or evade. It is potent.

24 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

As   long as  Jake isn't stressed initially  it work   s   .

Are you sure this would be a prerequisite if this interaction is valid? Single-stressed Jake could potentially be coordinated, perform barrel roll or boost and grant itself a focus.

5 minutes ago, Ryfterek said:

Are you sure this would be a prerequisite if this interaction is valid? Single-stressed Jake could potentially be coordinated, perform barrel roll or boost and grant itself a focus.

No he couldn't. Other than the action provided by ap5 he cannot perform actions whilst stressed.

@thespaceinvader is right. the ship in question can only perform one action while stressed. after that action is performed, coordinating is no longer happening - and so the timing for AP-5s ability has passed. of course, jake could still pass his focus action to another ship that he boosts or barrel rolls into range 0-1 off.

Also ap5s wording is bad. The plural is unnecessary and confusing and could easily have been written to be less ambiguous.

4 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

No he couldn't. Other than the action provided by ap5 he cannot perform actions whilst stressed.

Hmm.

It seem to me that the limitation has to do with the fact that the coordinated ship has to be stressed when AP chooses it for its ability to work.

5 minutes ago, gjnido said:

Hmm.

It seem to me that the limitation has to do with the fact that the coordinated ship has to be stressed when AP chooses it for its ability to work.

While you coordinate, if you chose a ship with exactly 1 stress token, it can perform actions.

It could instead say 'It can perform the co-ordinated action' to avoid the potentially confusing plural in this case and in the case of linked actions.

12 minutes ago, gjnido said:

Hmm.

It seem to me that the limitation has to do with the fact that the coordinated ship has to be stressed when AP chooses it for its ability to work.

please note that the timing of AP-5s ability is "While you coordinate", which means the coordination is finished when the ship coordinated has performed one action according to the rules reference. the ship can, of course, chain other actions off of the first one, but it's no longer being coordinated by AP-5 - and so cannot perform actions while stressed anymore.

again, i agree with @thespaceinvader , it could certainly be better written to avoid confusion.

1 hour ago, meffo said:

please note that the timing of AP-5s ability is "While you coordinate", which means the coordination is finished when the ship coordinated has performed one action according to the rules reference. the ship can, of course, chain other actions off of the first one, but it's no longer being coordinated by AP-5 - and so cannot perform actions while stressed anymore.

again, i agree with @thespaceinvader , it could certainly be better written to avoid confusion.

I think that linked actions to that one coordinated actions would be considered as part of that window.

In the Perform Action step of the Activation a ship can perform 1 action, but linked actions are considered part of that step. (on Ionized ship can't perform a focus and then link to another action.

Also AP-5 card uses the plural.

16 minutes ago, gjnido said:

on Ionized ship can't perform a focus and then link to another action.

This has nothing to do with the fact they resolve in the "same window". This is because you can perform only the focus during the "Perform action step" of the activation, so all of this step. Whatever it is an action granted by linked action, of by ship / pilote ability. A step is not just one window, it just so happen that you are granted only one action, so it normally end after the action, but many thing could happen during this step.

Maybe...

but this is my question:

The Perform Action step specifies only one action. After a ship performs one action, is the step finished? Are linked actions part of the step or outside of it?

The Coordinate action specifies only one action. After a ship performs one action, is the action finished? Are linked actions part of the action or outside of it?

2 hours ago, gjnido said:

I think that linked actions to that one coordinated actions would be considered as part of that window.

In the Perform Action step of the Activation a ship can perform 1 action, but linked actions are considered part of that step. (on Ionized ship can't perform a focus and then link to another action.

Also AP-5 card uses the plural.

what makes you think that? the description of coordinate from the rules reference specify that the chosen ship performs 1 action. there is no support for coordinating to go on further than that.

of course i realize that AP-5 uses the plural. his card says "actions". you're reasoning that since it's AP-5 performing the coordinate action, the effect is player owned and doesn't have to end at the timing specified in the rules for coordinate, but the player can add as many effects to the ability queue as he wants before the coordinate ends?

you can always link actions off of other actions or trigger effects (pilot abilities, ship abilities, upgrades, etc.) off of actions.

there is no specification on when the perform action step ends. as indicated by the rules for ionization, it's still the perform action step after you would like to link an action from the focus action, as it forbids you to do so if you where ionized. the perform action step is simply described like this:
"3. Perform Action: The ship may perform one action."

there are several other mentions of the perform action step throughout the rules reference, for example (under "Action" on page three):
• During the Perform Action step of a ship’s activation, the ship may perform an action.

let's talk about advanced SLAM. SLAM specifically states that the SLAM action can only be performed as a ships one action during the perform action step. you then have a card like advanced SLAM letting the ship perform another action after the SLAM-maneuver has been executed. the cards always supersede the rules reference, but still.

the timing for linked actions, autothrusters, vectored thrusters and the like are the same. they occur after the an action has been performed. after means immediately after. i still don't see a conflict between one effect ending and another effect beginning, but you're arguing there is one? as in coordinating doesn't end when the coordinate effect is described to end, but only after all other effects triggered by the action have been resolved in the ability queue?

please note that there is a fundamental difference between the coordinate action and the steps you take to resolve it and the perform action step of activation. the perform action step always comes around during activation (unless, of course, another effect has caused you to skip it). it's part of every ships activation during the activation phase. coordinating only comes about when you perform the action. based on how a round of x-wing is constructed, i find it quite natural to assume that timing windows can always come up during every phase of play. can you really stop something happening mid action and add other effects to the ability queue before that action is completed, though? do you have other examples?

also note that AP-5s effect is only relevant if the ship he chooses when coordinating has exactly one stress token. does that mean he could choose and unstressed Jake Farrel, have jake perform an evade action, then boost with vectored thrusters, gaining a stress, and then performing a focus action from his pilot ability? there are a lot of other scenarios which become quite unclear here. what happens if he gains more stress than one while performing actions? could he still perform more actions? does he need to be stressed when he's chosen to be able to perform actions while stressed, or can he gain the stress later and keep performing actions?

43 minutes ago, gjnido said:

Maybe...

but this is my question:

The Perform Action step specifies only one action. After a ship performs one action, is the step finished? Are linked actions part of the step or outside of it?

The Coordinate action specifies only one action. After a ship performs one action, is the action finished? Are linked actions part of the action or outside of it?

Because Coordinate is not a step in the game it is an action put on the "ability queue". The ability must finish before passing to the next ability. Part of the resolution of coordinate is making another ship do one action. If doing this action trigger something, it is put on the back of the ability queue. A step is not in the ability queue. So doing your action in the action step trigger the possible linked one that is added to the queue if you choose so, but the step must not end before you continue on the queue. It is the queue that must be done before you finish the step.

Just now, muribundi said:

Because Coordinate is not a step in the game it is an action put on the "ability queue". The ability must finish before passing to the next ability. Part of the resolution of coordinate is making another ship do one action. If doing this action trigger something, it is put on the back of the ability queue. A step is not in the ability queue. So doing your action in the action step trigger the possible linked one that is added to the queue if you choose so, but the step must not end before you continue on the queue. It is the queue that must be done before you finish the step.

How about this:

Step 3 of Coordinate specifies only one action. After a ship performs one action, is the step finished? Are linked actions part of the step or outside of it?

You know what, play like this, for what I care. If you want to play like this in you play area. In our play area we don't play like this and this is the important part for me.

Edit: I gave you the reasons why we play like this, you don't accept them, then be my guess to play as you see fit on your side.

Edit Edit: They already stated in FAQ that the additional action are not part of the coordinate but they are part of the action step. I gave you the reason why we think it make sense. You don't accept it, argue with FFG at this point

I'm inclined to think a stressed* Jake can't focus if coordinated to boost/barrel roll by AP-5. I kind of think that after Jake boosts or barrel rolls, AP-5's coordination is over, and the permission he grants for actions without stress is likewise over.

*Unstressed Jake can clearly Focus after a coordinated boost.

3 hours ago, muribundi said:

Edit Edit: They already stated in FAQ that the additional action are not part of the coordinate but they are part of the action step. I gave you the reason why we think it make sense. You don't accept it, argue with FFG at this point

This had slipped my mind, but it seems relevant. With Lieutenant Sai, FFG has ruled that only the initial action is covered by the effect. While AP-5 or Ciena Ree weren't mentioned in that specific response, it stands to reason that the effect of their abilities is also confined to the initial action.

The Sai clarification in the Rules Reference (1.0.3) p.27 could be used as precedent that only the initial action counts as part of the Coordinate:

Q: If Lieutenant Sai [Lambda-class Shuttle] coordinates a ship and it performs an action followed by a linked action, can Lieutenant Sai perform the linked action instead of the initial action?
A: No. Lieutenant Sai can only perform the initial action.

It's not a stretch to infer that Sai cannot copy the linked action because it is not a part of the Coordinate, and if that is the case AP-5 would likewise have no effect after the first action.

On the flip side of the argument the differences are significant because Sai says , "that action" while AP-5 says , "actions." Is this difference in language illustrative of an intended difference in function, or inclusion of redundant language? It's hard to say given FFGs track record of rulings

ninja'd: you beat me to it @theBitterFig

The action in plural is probably more relate to the override of the rule that ship can't perform actions while stressed, action also being plural. So it can perform actions even while stressed during the coordinate window. It does not mean you can perform more then the action granted by coordinate. It could also be a nice future proof just in case, for whatever reason, there is way to perform more then one action that do not use trigger. And Sai is not plural because no part of it would need to be plural for it to see all the actions. If you perform 30 actions in a day, I will still say if you performed an action that I can also do... I will not say if you performed an actions ?!

And that it why it got an FAQ because if linked action were inside the coordinate execution, Sai would have been able to see them with the current wording.

6 hours ago, meffo said:

what makes you think that? the description of coordinate from the rules reference specify that the chosen ship performs 1 action. there is no support for coordinating to go on further than that.

Let me see if I can explain myself.

First of all, I agree with you that probably RAI is that AP-5's ability only applies to one action.

But I want to see if I can define the relationship between Steps that say "perform one action" with linked actions. This should give us a better idea of the limits of a "While ____________" trigger.

So I asked these 2 questions:

-The Perform Action step specifies only one action. After a ship performs one action, is the step finished? Are linked actions part of the step or outside of it?

- Step 3 of Coordinate specifies only one action. After a ship performs one action, is the step finished? Are linked actions part of the step or outside of it?

I believe the best answer should be:

(H) -> Once the ship performs one action, the steps ends. All linked actions and effects lie outside of the step.

The FAQ entry for Lt. Sai seems to uphold this answer. But I have a problem with the particular phrasing of the Ionized FAQ:

"Q: Can an ionized ship perform an action that is linked to its
focus action after performing its focus action?
A: No. Focus is the only action that it can perform during the Perform Action
step."

Now, this FAQ clearly implies that the linked actions are part of that step.

--Does this applies to all Steps that say "perform one action"?

--Is the Perform Action step a special case that ignores (H)?

--Is step 3 of Coordinate a special case and only it follows (H)?

I don't know!

As for your last question:

7 hours ago, meffo said:

also note that AP-5s effect is only relevant if the ship he chooses when coordinating has exactly one stress token. does that mean he could choose and unstressed Jake Farrel, have jake perform an evade action, then boost with vectored thrusters, gaining a stress, and then performing a focus action from his pilot ability? there are a lot of other scenarios which become quite unclear here. what happens if he gains more stress than one while performing actions?   could he still perform more actions? does he need to be stressed when he's chosen to be able to perform actions while stressed, or can he gain the stress later and keep performing actions?

I agree 100% with this post:

9 hours ago, gjnido said:

Hmm.

It seem to me that the limitation has to do with the fact that the coordinated ship has to be stressed when AP chooses it for its ability to work.

8 hours ago, gjnido said:

The Perform Action step specifies only one action. After a ship performs one action, is the step finished? Are linked actions part of the step or outside of it?

The Coordinate action specifies only one action. After a ship performs one action, is the action finished? Are linked actions part of the action or outside of it?

ok, lets see here.

no, the step is not finished. since it's a step of activation, there are all manner of effects that can still occur during this step.

and yes, the action is finished. since it's an action it has to resolve fully before moving on with other effects in the ability queue.

that's my interpretation at least.

WOA!

...trying to summarise:

- in the perform action step a ship can perform one action. And OF COURSE it can link an action from the first one.

- if a ship is being coordinated it CAN do linked action off of the coordinated action.

- AP-5 explicitly states that he can coordinate a stressed ship.

And of course that ship can link into another action! (because that ship is explicitly allowed to 'perform actions')

- Sai is never a problem: the reference only states that he HIMSELF can only perform the coordinated action (not any linked one).

- Jake is kind of tricky, I must confess. His ability queue is sometimes very long!!

BUT: if he is stressed - beeing coordinated a boost - does his 'kind of' linked focus action to himself – that triggers his ship ability and he barrel rolls (gets a 2nd stress) — and can pass a 2nd focus to a nearby friend. Everything’s fine! ✔️

What he can’t do is passing the 1st focus to someone else — and trying to get the 2nd focus he generates —>because then he has TWO stress tokens and AP-5 said 'exactly ONE'

Just the normal Jake shenanigans. Try going through the steps when he starts un-stressed. Then just add one stress in the beginning.

PS: Hope that helps. It’s actually simple...

...well, do not cloud your minds with 'when does a step end' and 'what is a step' and stuff! 🤪

I do find it confusing sometimes! But simply following what is written often saves my day (and my game!).

cheers! 🤩