Hello again,

Happy to say the improvements continue with Legion miniatures, however some old habits don't seem to die out...

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/star-wars-legion/products/phase-i-clone-troopers-unit-expansion/ (from left to right folks)

The first issue, another trooper pointing with a finger towards one direction, while standing in a calm posture and facing behind him. WHY do you continue to think these poses are practical? He looks ridiculous if placed behind the unit, and looks ridiculous if placed in front as his body language does not match the action poses of the other troopers! He looks like his actually giving a superior directions.. what he should be doing is advancing under fire (lower his head, moving forward) with his head facing forward and his left hand giving the 'advance' order which is the entire hand pointing forward, because no one says advance and points a finger. Complete failure and waste of plastic here, unless you're making a clone trooper logistical corps or need a guy to point Yoda in the right direction to the DFAC...

Second trooper, running. Looks good, personally I would prefer the blaster to be pointed down more but whatever, it can be held like that so I accept it. Pass.

Third Trooper... What is he doing? It's not a firing position, his more 'at the ready' but what the heck is that? You have either HIGH READY which is the barrel of the weapon pointing up in the air, or LOW READY you have the barrel facing down. Now I don't care if this is sci-fi. Clone Troopers are soldiers, they use weapons, same dangers. You don't stand there holding your weapon like that, it looks bad, it gives the squad a bad image and makes the whole thing look poorly researched.

Four - Crouched position (WELL DONE, good choice!) I like this position, soldiers keep low and we should see more variations of it. He appears to be firing or prepared to fire his weapon, good.

Five - Trooper with a heavy weapon, no one seems to have an issue making these in any miniatures game. Pass

Six - I don't get this one at all. Is he standing up to fire and if not what is the purpose, do gamers really want 'Trooper standing almost ready to fire but not really' pose in their collection? Make him hold the rifle up and aim down the sights why is this so difficult to achieve? Fail

Seven - Very modern pose, advancing while aiming down the sites with his right arm kept close to the torso avoiding the 'chicken arm' thing, keeps a smaller profile. This trooper is well done.

All together some good troopers mixed with some disappointing choices, but it's a much better direction than your prior efforts.

I'm sure FFG would LOVE to hire you to help sketch out correct trooper poses.

1 hour ago, 1 said:

Hello again,

Happy to say the improvements continue with Legion miniatures, however some old habits don't seem to die out...

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/products/star-wars-legion/products/phase-i-clone-troopers-unit-expansion/ (from left to right folks)

The first issue, another trooper pointing with a finger towards one direction, while standing in a calm posture and facing behind him. WHY do you continue to think these poses are practical? He looks ridiculous if placed behind the unit, and looks ridiculous if placed in front as his body language does not match the action poses of the other troopers! He looks like his actually giving a superior directions.. what he should be doing is advancing under fire (lower his head, moving forward) with his head facing forward and his left hand giving the 'advance' order which is the entire hand pointing forward, because no one says advance and points a finger. Complete failure and waste of plastic here, unless you're making a clone trooper logistical corps or need a guy to point Yoda in the right direction to the DFAC...

Second trooper, running. Looks good, personally I would prefer the blaster to be pointed down more but whatever, it can be held like that so I accept it. Pass.

Third Trooper... What is he doing? It's not a firing position, his more 'at the ready' but what the heck is that? You have either HIGH READY which is the barrel of the weapon pointing up in the air, or LOW READY you have the barrel facing down. Now I don't care if this is sci-fi. Clone Troopers are soldiers, they use weapons, same dangers. You don't stand there holding your weapon like that, it looks bad, it gives the squad a bad image and makes the whole thing look poorly researched.

Four - Crouched position (WELL DONE, good choice!) I like this position, soldiers keep low and we should see more variations of it. He appears to be firing or prepared to fire his weapon, good.

Five - Trooper with a heavy weapon, no one seems to have an issue making these in any miniatures game. Pass

Six - I don't get this one at all. Is he standing up to fire and if not what is the purpose, do gamers really want 'Trooper standing almost ready to fire but not really' pose in their collection? Make him hold the rifle up and aim down the sights why is this so difficult to achieve? Fail

Seven - Very modern pose, advancing while aiming down the sites with his right arm kept close to the torso avoiding the 'chicken arm' thing, keeps a smaller profile. This trooper is well done.

All together some good troopers mixed with some disappointing choices, but it's a much better direction than your prior efforts.

Once you have all the poses you’re looking for, then what? Should they continue to make the same poses, over and over?

Personally, I’m glad for some variety. Also the commander you mention is in a pose of someone who is looking back at his units and giving orders. If you want the opposite, a commander looking where he is pointing, look no further than the Core set which has the commander you want. The other commander that you’re complaining about is in the expansion pack, and I’m glad it’s different than the core, but you’re entitled to your opinion.

Valid complaints if this is historicals; but it's not, it's Star Wars. How often do you see Stormtroopers or Clones in the movies executing tactical movement. They pretty much all fire from the hip or chest while moving upright. Very little aimed fire or crouched movement from cover to cover. Almost nobody ever adopts a prone firing position, let alone kneeling.

I never thought I’d see you here again. I hope you’ve learnt from last time.

2 hours ago, Canuck7 said:

Valid complaints if this is historicals; but it's not, it's Star Wars. How often do you see Stormtroopers or Clones in the movies executing tactical movement. They pretty much all fire from the hip or chest while moving upright. Very little aimed fire or crouched movement from cover to cover. Almost nobody ever adopts a prone firing position, let alone kneeling.

In the DVD commentary there was a joke that Clone Troopers moved like animators and not soldiers, so in Episode 3 they hired ex-special forces/US Navy SEALS to do the motion capture.

So therefore I can argue that Clone Troopers move and operate as US Navy SEALS do. Which makes some of these poses completely inaccurate.

2 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

Once you have all the poses you’re looking for, then what? Should they continue to make the same poses, over and over?

Personally, I’m glad for some variety. Also the commander you mention is in a pose of someone who is looking back at his units and giving orders. If you want the opposite, a commander looking where he is pointing, look no further than the Core set which has the commander you want. The other commander that you’re complaining about is in the expansion pack, and I’m glad it’s different than the core, but you’re entitled to your opinion.

Thank you, that Commander is much better.

2 hours ago, Jabby said:

I never thought I’d see you here again. I hope you’ve learnt from last time.

I take no responsibility for people getting out of hand. The mods should have kept it in line or worst case lock the thread, to remove it from existence was a really low move IMO.

1 hour ago, 1 said:

I take no responsibility for people getting out of hand. The mods should have kept it in line or worst case lock the thread, to remove it from existence was a really low move IMO.

I would argue that everyone involved, yourself and myself included, should take responsibility. The mods’ only way of keeping things in line is by deleting threads that get out of hand. I’m pretty sure that the mods aren’t allowed to get involved other than deleting threads. I seriously hope nothing starts this time.

Which means that they also move like animators. Since it was the Phase I clones they had problems with, these guys fit that form just fine. Such an odd point to make.

And if your problem is that the squad leader is pointing one way while facing a different way....

The first three are just example images from a google image search for "military squad leader" or "military team leader," the kind of search FFG likely did when picking out poses. A figure pointing or seeming to direct his guys is an easy to understand symbol of a leader, so it's pretty obvious why they've gone with that. More elite troops get the "tactical" poses because it fits the vibe they're trying to go with. That last one is one of mine, and as you can see, he's waving his hand to call up guys. In another second or so, he'd be pointing in a direction he isn't looking. Nothing wrong with that at all. Honestly, all of the Clone minis look great, and it's easy to imagine why they're doing what they are doing.

If we're going to complain about the Clones, it should be their price and stats. No offensive surge? No precise? Just the ability to dump their attack into another unit's attack? Eh, powerful, but really limiting if you ask me.

5 hours ago, 1 said:

In the DVD commentary there was a joke that Clone Troopers moved like animators and not soldiers, so in Episode 3 they hired ex-special forces/US Navy SEALS to do the motion capture.

So therefore I can argue that Clone Troopers move and operate as US Navy SEALS do. Which makes some of these poses completely inaccurate.

Based on your own comments, you can not argue Phase I clones move or operate as US Navy Seals, it would be later Phases that you could argue that.

I think the pointing guys look fine, it does help indicate quite clearly who is the lead for a miniatures game in a squad of identical armoured soldiers. What would be more useful I think is if the squad leaders came with two or three sets of arms to add some variety.

Additionally, prone and kneeling poses are problematic with "true line of sight" rules as I know from the past. Since we are supposed to use the highest point on each model to determine what it can "see," prone models won't be able to contribute attack dice to many attacks.

In universe I believe the Phase 1 troopers are trained solely by the Kaminoans, only later does the Republic hire bounty hunters to assist with the training. Which might be an in canon "explanation" for the difference in mo-cap.

3 minutes ago, Doghouse. said:

I think the pointing guys look fine, it does help indicate quite clearly who is the lead for a miniatures game in a squad of identical armoured soldiers. What would be more useful I think is if the squad leaders came with two or three sets of arms to add some variety.

No argument there, but differences in painting can help as well.

4 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

In universe I believe the Phase 1 troopers are trained solely by the Kaminoans, only later does the Republic hire bounty hunters to assist with the training. Which might be an in canon "explanation" for the difference in mo-cap. 

No, all the clones were trained by bounty hunters (canon) except the arc troopers (legends) who were trained by Jango himself

8 minutes ago, Jabby said:

No, all the clones were trained by bounty hunters (canon) except the arc troopers (legends) who were trained by Jango himself

I'll buy the Arc troopers were training initially by Jango (either in Legends or Canon), but more Arc Troopers are trained after the death of Jango, so the training would have changed somewhat.

And do you have a source for the early training being handled by bounty hunters? Only stuff I can find only mentions the bounty hunters being hired directly by the Republic after the start of the Clone Wars.

2 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I'll buy the Arc troopers were training initially by Jango (either in Legends or Canon), but more Arc Troopers are trained after the death of Jango, so...

And do you have a source for the early training being handled by bounty hunters? Only stuff I can find only mentions the bounty hunters being hired directly by the Republic after the start of the Clone Wars.

When you state “phase 1” do you mean all phase 1 troopers or just the troopers produced before the war? And yes, of course there would have been other instructors after Jango, they were other Mandolorians (legends). In canon, “arc trooper” seems to be more of a rank than a specific breed of clone trooper so I don’t know there

1

1 minute ago, Caimheul1313 said:

I'll buy the Arc troopers were training initially by Jango (either in Legends or Canon), but more Arc Troopers are trained after the death of Jango, so...

And do you have a source for the early training being handled by bounty hunters? Only stuff I can find only mentions the bounty hunters being hired directly by the Republic after the start of the Clone Wars.

In the EU, Phase II ARCs were trained by surviving Phase Is, such as my handle's namesake. These included the Clone (Marshal) Commanders like Cody, Bly, and Bacara. Not sure what the DisCanon's answer is, but it would make sense that it would be similar.

Also, the EU had Mandalorians and other bounty hunters training the Clone Commandos. Not sure if the training of the average grunt was ever addressed, but it would make sense they would have some training from non-Kaminoians.

Just now, Jabby said:

When you state “phase 1” do you mean all phase 1 troopers or just the troopers produced before the war? And yes, of course there would have been other instructors after Jango, they were other Mandolorians (legends). In canon, “arc trooper” seems to be more of a rank than a specific breed of clone trooper so I don’t know there

Fair point, I was speaking more towards the Phase 1 Clones created before the war, which I'm assuming would outnumber the Phase 1 troopers created during the war, seeing as the army was commissioned in 32 BBY, and the Clone Wars started ten years latter in 22 BBY and only lasted until 19 BBY.

I was asking more about new canon, I knew there was a lot more stuff dealing with clone training, especially from the books spun off from the Republic Commandos video game, but that got shunted away.

In the current cannon Mandalorians had a civil war and banished the warrior clans prior to the Battle of Naboo, so I could see some of those warriors finding work with the Kaminoans, but I can't find any support in current canon for pre-war training by anyone other than the Kaminoans we see when Obi-wan tours the facility in the film.

18 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

In the EU, Phase II ARCs were trained by surviving Phase Is, such as my handle's namesake. These included the Clone (Marshal) Commanders like Cody, Bly, and Bacara. Not sure what the DisCanon's answer is, but it would make sense that it would be similar.

Also, the EU had Mandalorians and other bounty hunters training the Clone Commandos. Not sure if the training of the average grunt was ever addressed, but it would make sense they would have some training from non-Kaminoians.

I was more checking what the current canon was in regards to training. Regardless, it doesn't change the "look like animator" movement being canon, which could be explained in canon by a change of training regime/increase of actual battlefield experience.

They are on sprues now. Pose complaints are not going to hold much water. Just fix them yourself.

2 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

They are on sprues now. Pose complaints are not going to hold much water. Just fix them yourself.

Just the Battle Droids are on sprues this time.

52 minutes ago, rowdyoctopus said:

They are on sprues now. Pose complaints are not going to hold much water. Just fix them yourself.

FFG is gradually switching to entirely sprues, starting with the CIS releases. The GAR early releases at least will all be the same as the other Legion releases.

But even the soft plastic can be fairly easily modified, and sprues do not inherently mean multi-pose, as evidenced by many of GW's plastic character models and easy build releases.

1 hour ago, Cusm said:

Just the Battle Droids are on sprues this time.

So are destroyer droids; there was a pic from the initial adepticon announcement floating around for a while of the way the frame was laid put

1 hour ago, Cusm said:

Just the Battle Droids are on sprues this time.

1 minute ago, joewrightgm said:

So are destroyer droids; there was a pic from the initial adepticon announcement floating around for a while of the way the frame was laid put

Grievous is also on sprue according to the article and announcement.

1 minute ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Grievous is also on sprue according to the article and announcement.

Grievous was obvious (I forgot to mention) since we have seen at least 2 different poses in previews.

5 minutes ago, Cusm said:

Grievous was obvious (I forgot to mention) since we have seen at least 2 different poses in previews.

Not necessarily, Sabine and Bossk have different sets of arms but are not on sprues. Grievous's body, legs, and head appear to be in the same position, so FFG could have just put extra arms into the box without a sprue.

32 minutes ago, Cusm said:

Grievous was obvious (I forgot to mention) since we have seen at least 2 different poses in previews.

24 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Not necessarily, Sabine and Bossk have different sets of arms but are not on sprues. Grievous's body, legs, and head appear to be in the same position, so FFG could have just put extra arms into the box without a sprue.

He's got three poses, actually. And I don't think the whole body is necessarily the same throughout, as he's got a cloak for at least one option.