40 minutes ago, Malburet said:

420 fighters !! whoa ! If a standard squadron is twelve fighters, that means a Venator could carry 35 squadrons. We will have a lot of squadron expansion pack to buy . 🤣

We'll, a Tie Fighter Squadron was 12 fighters... if we look at Republic Squadrons, we see that squadrons seem to be broken up differently based on vessel. V19 Torrent Fighters seem to have been in squadrons of 10 (plus sometimes a Jedi), while at the start of Ep3 we see Squad Seven having 7 ARC 170s when Obi-wan tells Odd-Ball to form up behind him (though, they could have lost a few fighters, they also could be at 7 due to being a 3 man craft). Meanwhile, we also see Shadow Squadron having 12 BLT-B Y Wings. So if we apply a wing being 1 of each type of standard squadron, a Venator would have 14 Wings. But we can also assume that while it could TAKE 420 squadrons, the Venator likely was never actually complemented with that many star fighters. I mean, lets be honest with ourselves. In the movie it shows up in, and in The Clone Wars, a majority of the hanger bays we see are empty areas between fighters. They likely didn't gain new fighters while on campaign when suffering losses, and also likely didn't replenish until returning to refit and rearm, where they would get a new batch of fighter pilots with their fighters.

4 hours ago, geek19 said:

Does THE VAUNTED LORE matter anymore if we're allowing battle droids to fight Stormtroopers and Jedi to fight Luke Skywalker? As a game, I'd be more concerned with how the ship is on the table instead of what the story says it should be.

The LORE says Boba Fett can be hired by any side, but he's imp only. The LORE says that all sorts of Imp admirals died at Yavin, but you could put any of them on an SSD. Should LORE matter so much that it's crafting an incredibly sub par ship because the VSD is your favorite? Do I then get to request "bad" admirals for the next 5 waves because I want Leia to be better?

Sit down.

The New Venator doesn't have to have crazy good guns, or a large ship base that makes it pop. The Venator and ALL clone wars stuff will be decided on how good their fighters are. We should keep it familiar with the lore because it makes the game seem more real. I for one think that the amount of squadron presence that the Republic will bring to the table will be insane. I think that this ship needs to have its base stats be "underwelming" because it makes sense for the Jedi, starfighters and titles to really make a Republic fleet pop.

29 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

Sit down.

I'm already sitting. Why should I sit down again?

19 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

broadside,

nothing about this ship screams broadside.

19 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

5 dice out the sides, 3 red 2 blue and out the front give it 4 dice, 2 red 2 blue.

why blue? this ship should have ZERO blue as blue indicates ion cannons

19 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

balanced

yea no. 9 hull makes this a way better victory already and giving it so much out the sides and even making a stronger brawler version would completely seal the victories death as a possibility. You guys are trying to give this ship too many dice when it really needs to be unimpressive with it's dice, but shine as a carrier. I am fine with a heavier version, but it would max out at 5 dice. Upgrade slots are where you can add dice to make it a better attack unit, but that wasn't the venator's role.

double check everything as an imperial version. they wouldn't change hull values, so would a 9 hull quasar make sense for the Imperials?

6 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

nothing about this ship screams broadside.

why blue? this ship should have ZERO blue as blue indicates ion cannons

yea no. 9 hull makes this a way better victory already and giving it so much out the sides and even making a stronger brawler version would completely seal the victories death as a possibility. You guys are trying to give this ship too many dice when it really needs to be unimpressive with it's dice, but shine as a carrier. I am fine with a heavier version, but it would max out at 5 dice. Upgrade slots are where you can add dice to make it a better attack unit, but that wasn't the venator's role.

1. Assuming Venators are released for the empire in addition to the republic, it would give the empire a new playstyle available only previously via the arquitens.

2. Ship armaments/weapons systems are not tied to die color. Also, ISD-IIs have zero point defense according to canon, but in game they have 2 blue flak dice. Game design is going to take priority.

3. 9 hull for being a large ship. It's weaker than a VSD in numerous ways. Weaker shields, weaker defensive token suite, weaker main arc, etc.

Hope that answers your questions.

40 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

2-3 shie      l   ds   all the  way around. 

41 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

single   brace, single redirect, single conta  i  n

17 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

. 9 hull for being a large ship. It's weaker     than a VSD in numerous ways. Weaker shields, weaker defensive token suite, weaker main arc, etc. 

Reread all of your stuff. So let’s say that it has 2 shields all around. That makes double redirects worthless anyway. A contain allows their 9 hull to be very strong especially with dco. What do you mean by weaker main arc? Is an MC80s side arc it’s main arc? If so then it only loses a blue die, AND it gains it back with a double arc, according to your build. So no, it isn’t weaker. It will have similar arcs to what I have previously mentioned probably because it will have a very balanced arc

20 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

Ship  ar  maments/weapons systems are not tied to die color. 

Um what? Are you serious? Look at the upgrade cards. Look at the 2017 store champs range ruler. Yes it does. That is literally the point of different ranges.

1 minute ago, Cleto0 said:

Reread all of your stuff. So let’s say that it has 2 shields all around. That makes double redirects worthless anyway. A contain allows their 9 hull to be very strong especially with dco. What do you mean by weaker main arc? Is an MC80s side arc it’s main arc? If so then it only loses a blue die, AND it gains it back with a double arc, according to your build. So no, it isn’t weaker. It will have similar arcs to what I have previously mentioned probably because it will have a very balanced arc

Um what? Are you serious? Look at the upgrade cards. Look at the 2017 store champs range ruler. Yes it does. That is literally the point of different ranges.

You're shifting the goal posts. I said it's main arc is weaker than a VSDs (and you correctly add it's weaker than a home one mc80 as well). It is a weaker main arc. The fact that it gets a stronger secondary arc(4 dice as opposed to 3) is also true. So yes, if you double arc, you will get the same dice. The Venator's strength should be its versatility imo. The VSD is more dedicated ship to ship platform. I never mentioned upgrades, but assuming it gets an officer slot, that's still a highly competitive upgrade slot, who's to say DCO will be stapled? Maybe the Venator will lack a weapons team whereas the VSD has a weapons team. Who knows. I trust FFG to deliver a balanced project.

Yes, I am serious. Weapons systems are not fixed to the colors of the dice. This is a fact. Someone back me up on this.

42 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

So let’s say that it has 2 shields all around. That makes double redirects worthless anyway.

Makes it a lot like the Arquitens, which would have a pretty sketchy token suite without those redirects...

31 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

Yes, I am serious. Weapons systems are not fixed to the colors of the dice. This is a fact. Someone back me up on this.

The ISD-1 and Quasar-1 indicate this is correct, though there is a definite influence .

Can we agree that VSDs have some real problems and should not be viewed as a ceiling for new products? Just like we aren't mad that the SSD isn’t accurately based off the ISD and doesn't have 30 dice out the front arc? The VSD is both smaller and represented in a time period when it's outdated and aging. Make the Imperial Venator compete with it when it comes out.

45 minutes ago, Belisarius09 said:

You're shifting the goal posts. I said it's main arc is weaker than a VSDs (and you correctly add it's weaker than a home one mc80 as well). It is a weaker main arc. The fact that it gets a stronger secondary arc(4 dice as opposed to 3) is also true. So yes, if you double arc, you will get the same dice. The Venator's strength should be its versatility imo. The VSD is more dedicated ship to ship platform. I never mentioned upgrades, but assuming it gets an officer slot, that's still a highly competitive upgrade slot, who's to say DCO will be stapled? Maybe the Venator will lack a weapons team whereas the VSD has a weapons team. Who knows. I trust FFG to deliver a balanced project.

Yes, I am serious. Weapons systems are not fixed to the colors of the dice. This is a fact. Someone back me up on this.

Yes weapons system are not fixed to color of the dice. The Mc30 torpedo is a blue-black battery and has a turbolaser upgrade slot not an ion upgrade

14 hours ago, Zeoinx said:

So does anyone have any speculation on how the Venator will be sold, will it have some unique duel faction ship cards, where the Republic Venator will be quite more powerful then the Imperial version, but the Imperial Version would allow the ship to fill a role in between the Victory and smaller vessels in the Imperial Armada. Perhaps even a Rebel Alliance version that would fill a role in between the Rebel Assault Carrier and Nebulon B Frigate.

This easily can be applied to some republic fighters as well, such as the Arc-170 and V-Wings, as well as a reverse Fighter, the Rebel Z-95 Headhunter can be added to the Republic Fleet.

Also, has FFG or anyone leaked any images of any of the Clone Wars Armada ships yet?

The venator is bigger than both the assault frigate and victory so they would fill a role between those ships and larger ships like ISDs

1 hour ago, Belisarius09 said:

DCO  will be st  apled 

Nobody. I would rather put a Jedi or someone else that makes it feel like a new ship. I guess we have different ideas for the venator, which is completely fine. My ideal venator is a large ship that is costed at about 70 points, 7 Hull, front 3red 2 black side 2red 2 black because it should feel underwhelming. I say this because the republic isn’t about big ships duking it out, but Jedi tacticians and star fighter pilots. With my idea of a perfect venator, the titles should make it feel like a completely different ship than the other titles. With other ships in the game, like the isd, it always FEELS like an isd, even though you can take one of 5 titles. The venator in every different scene is portrayed as a unique ship. Battle of corresant it is a close range brawler, battle of Genosis it is a troop transport, and under command of plo koon, it is a swarm ship. That’s just how I see it, and remember that we could easily see an upgrade that gives it more Hull or attack power. I am still waiting on offensive retrofit to give a turbo laser upgrade or a munitions upgrade... needs to happen!

1 hour ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Can we agree that VSDs have some real problems and should not be viewed as a ceiling for new products? Just like we aren't mad that the SSD isn’t accurately based off the ISD and doesn't have 30 dice out the front arc? The VSD is both smaller and represented in a time period when it's outdated and aging. Make the Imperial Venator compete with it when it comes out.

VSDs are love. VSDs are life. All that matters are VSDs. All your base are belong to VSDs. In Armada 4.0 all ships will be VSDs. There will be no squadrons, just tiny VSDs on tiny pegs.

2 minutes ago, geek19 said:

VSDs are love. VSDs are life.  All that matters are VSDs. All your base are belong to VSDs. In Armada 4.0 all ships will be VSDs. There will be no squadrons, just tiny VSDs on tiny pegs. 

Double V-moon will threaten VSU, but isn't a good answer for 2-VSD.

1 minute ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Double V-moon will threaten VSU, but isn't a good answer for 2-VSD.

What about the Droid attack on the VSDs??

29 minutes ago, Cleto0 said:

Nobody. I would rather put a Jedi or someone else that makes it feel like a new ship. I guess we have different ideas for the venator, which is completely fine. My ideal venator is a large ship that is costed at about 70 points, 7 Hull, front 3red 2 black side 2red 2 black because it should feel underwhelming. I say this because the republic isn’t about big ships duking it out, but Jedi tacticians and star fighter pilots. With my idea of a perfect venator, the titles should make it feel like a completely different ship than the other titles. With other ships in the game, like the isd, it always FEELS like an isd, even though you can take one of 5 titles. The venator in every different scene is portrayed as a unique ship. Battle of corresant it is a close range brawler, battle of Genosis it is a troop transport, and under command of plo koon, it is a swarm ship. That’s just how I see it, and remember that we could easily see an upgrade that gives it more Hull or attack power. I am still waiting on offensive retrofit to give a turbo laser upgrade or a munitions upgrade... needs to happen!

You misinterpret me, I was reacting to your claim that a contain defense token would mandate DCO in the officer slot, I don't think DCO would be a fixed officer in that scenario. It does seem we just happen to disagree. I think there is space to make a more fragile carrier variant per your desire, whilst also having a capable brawling large ship, the kind of Venator we see going toe to toe exchanging broadsides with Providence class in the opening of revenge of the sith and knocking out Munificents and Recusants.

12 hours ago, Church14 said:

So,

Command 3

Squadron 5

Engineering 4

Hull 8-9

Shields 4/2/2

Max speed 3, but we can make maneuvering garbage at that speed to let the ISD still be the best there.

5 (or 6) dice out the front, 3 out the sides, 2 out the back.

Gonna say 1 Blue Flak.... like the Victory.

11 hours ago, Church14 said:

Canon ISD: 72 fighters

Canon SSD: Apparently “thousands” of fighters. Dafuq?

Legends SSD: 144 fighters.

Canon Venator: 420 fighters

Since commanding 72 is a squadron value of 4, then the venator should be 5. Since squadron command of 5 also represents commanding “thousands” of fighters, Venator should solidly be Squadron 5.

...

Similar in size and shape to the interdictor, but with a huge hangar bay along the top. So 8-9 Hull.

...

Just a couple of thoughts I have, first if we assume that a squadron is 12 fighters then commanding 6 squadrons (or 72 fighters) would be a squadron command of 6, this tell me that the ISD can not command all its fighters. It holds more than it can command, and if that is the case the Venator does not need to have a larger Squadron Value just because it carries more fighters, it would need a larger Squadron Value if it has better command and control. So right now you have the ISD that can command 48 fighters at a time (if you go with the 12 per). And then if you are one of the players like me who thinks that a fighter base is a flight not full squadron then all of the above numbers are factored by four.

As for the hull, I have to say that I am not very up to date on the Venator, so going with what you said about size. It is about the size of the Interdicor (9 hull), with a small hanger (2 squadrons or 24 fighters according to Wookieepedia) and you think that a ship about the same size, but has a huge hanger (35 squadrons or 420 fighters) should have the same hull? My thought is that the larger hanger will give it a reduced hull as you can not reinforce the hanger area well due to needing to be able to move fighters around and such. So I would guess starting with the 9 hull a good starting point, but then reduce it by half or so to reflect the massive hanger, ending up with a hull of 5 or 6 at best.

Can't wait to see how they do Anakin's ventral hangar SPHA artillery rigging refit...

3 hours ago, The Jabbawookie said:

Can we agree that VSDs have some real problems...?

I would. Happily.

But every time I do, it feels like elite high-skilled players come out of the woodwork and somehow insist that this VSD is fine, and only needs to be flown with just the right list in just the right strategy. If that's the case, then speed 2 will work just fine with the Venator in just the right situation!

Snark aside, Locked Speed 2 really is untenable, full stop. Somehow this is not a universally accepted fact.

Quote

(Everybody Saying VEN shouldn't be influenced by the VSD)

I'm being a bit snarky here. There's a line of reasoning that the VSD is as gimped as it is and left that way because it's old. Here comes the VEN, a ship that is as old (if not older) than the VSD but somehow needs to be a better ship? It doesn't seem fair to me that an older ship comes better and more capable... especially as the VSD is hurting as much as it is.

Realistically I know the VEN is going to be hot stuff, certainly better than the Victory . I realize that. Wishing the VEN is speed 2 comes with the hope that it also comes with an upgrade to help other speed-2 locked ships (like the VSD). I feel like we've been patching the VSD with a few upgrade cards for a while, but hopefully one finally hits the mark and gives us something to make these starter ships actually relevant in the modern meta.

The real line of unacceptability is if the VEN exceeds the ISD classes in performance. Not only is this naked power creep, but it doesn't make sense to me that such an old ship exceeds the performance of its successor.

It would make sense to me that battery strength is translated into fighter strength, which is what I'd expect out of the Venator . You trade battery power for better flexibility out of aces and controlling fighters. The trick is to somehow make the VEN classes distinct against the ISD-I. I feel the VEN could out-perform the ISD-I in certain ways, mostly in fighter control, but certainly not battery.

I'm also thinking of how these VENs will also stack against the Resurgent , which in my mind is a combination of the ISD/VEN, with a dash of whatever the SSD is.

1 minute ago, Norsehound said:

It would make sense to me that battery strength is translated into fighter strength, which is what I'd expect out of the Venator . You trade battery power for better flexibility out of aces and controlling fighters. The trick is to somehow make the VEN classes distinct against the ISD-I. I feel the VEN could out-perform the ISD-I in certain ways, mostly in fighter control, but certainly not battery.

Agreed. (Double) Support Team, double Weapons Team, or fleet command are all solid ways to stand out.

1 hour ago, Norsehound said:

The real line of unacceptability is if the VEN exceeds the ISD classes in performance. Not only is this naked power creep, but it doesn't make sense to me that such an old ship exceeds the performance of its successor.  

I just think it should be equivalent to the ISD, so that it stands toe to toe in the game, but also doesn't exceed it. Equivalent doesn't always mean it needs to be exactly 1-1. That's fine that if it has a command variant and a combat variant... but the ONE scene we see it prominantly in the single movie it appears, a Venator preforms a solid broadside against a resurgence, then one fires a big-ol' laser out its ventral hanger and one shot a munnificent...

Its a line combat ship in the thing most people will straight up remember it from. Add the fact you get a prolonged overhead shot of one before we see the battle, its going to stand out.

I think we only need consider the VSD and the ISD when contemplating the Ven because we need to find as of yet unfilled design space. the Ven needs its own identity, it needs to be balanced so as to be worthwhile to take, while not being overbearing and relegating the VSD/ISD to the dustbin. That's why we mention the VSD.

I’m thinking a imperial venator would priced and perform like a weaker MC80Home-One - like how the MC80Lib is broadly similar to an ISD.

Take the cheapest MC80H’s dice and drop 1 or 2. Maybe have the Ven-I variant 3 red, 3 black and the Ven-II 3 red, 3 blue. Something like a VSD but with the dice in the Arcs swapped around. Probably Similar shields and hull to an VSD too.

I don’t know how to balance flyability; but atm I’’ thinking Speed 2, but with a support slot so you have to choose between engine techs to get speed 3 or fighter co-ord team.

With regards to squadron values; I’ve always took the squadron stat on the cards to reflect a ships ability to direct fighters, y’know the dudes on the flight controller artwork. Not strictly their hangar capacity (contrary to the expanded hangar bag card), so a natural 4-5? (Sure the Vens got a whole extra command tower for fighters, but the ISDs command tower is bigger by volume than the two combined and some of that’s gotta be for Fighter operations - just my own head canon. )

Maybe give one version a double weapons slot, and the other a double officer slot to reflect the two towers?

To prevent it stepping on the VSDs toes; By bumping it up to a Large Base; the venator won’t be able to take D-Caps so the VSD-2 will still retain single the largest long range attack in the game and preserve a niche; and price the venator more than either VSD variant; so the VSD-1 can retain its niche the imperial ‘budget’ battle-Carrier. The firepower between the two will be close; but very different arcs and thus a new play style for the Imps. The VSD still offers a similar punch in a smaller base at a cheaper cost but the venator can take different upgrades, is potentially faster and is better as a carrier. Compared to a ISD-I or II it’ll probably lose in a straight up 1v1 slugging match due to fewer dice and hull+Shields; potentially slower, very different Arcs and cheaper (Like the 90-100 mark? Perhaps?).

Oh, and make the firing arcs of similar shape to an Imperial Arquitens - so a nice big weak rear zone to hit and it’s kinda thematic with the two ships being designed with clone wars-era philosophy and, at a glance; matches the Venator’s silhouette.

Edit: (Apologies, I’m writing this on my phone with fat thumbs)

The problem is that by giving one dice/shield, the ship drifst closer to an ISD: But taking away one makes it much more similar to a Nebulon... The difference between ships is just too small in some cases in the game. Which is fine from a gameplay perspective, but forces you to make some compromises regarding the Lore.