The only times to retire a whole party/campaign is when the whole party wants to start something different and fresh or when the PCs actually "run out of meaningful" stories to tell because they already "did everything" and every further story with the old party would feel like that last cringey season of a show after you already had the most awesome finale possible.

There are games where the mechanics can break at some point along those journeys, but I have to encounter a system where the GM is unable to engage the PCs by providing problems you can't beat with a skill check/spell/power and still tell great stories as long as everyone is up for it.

I think you can't call out a rough area of XP to be done. There are way too many concepts needing very different amounts of XP to even reach their own goals. Some of them can find themselves struggling after reaching their first goal to keep them going after roughly 300 XP, while others are miles away from even seeing the finish line when reaching 1000 XP.

All of the games I played in so far were "considered done" due to other things than reaching any amount of XP and some of them went on for years. (Although I must admit we never managed to get to "max level" in DnD although that was because we didn't like the system itself too much )

6 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I enjoy making new characters as much as anyone. By the same token, I really enjoy playing characters for a long time and really fleshing out their stories through role-play. I've been playing my signature character on and off for over 20 years, dating back to WEG D6 2nd Ed Revised and Expanded, and still never completed his story arc. Given the choice, I don't ever intend to stop playing him.

I understand what you are saying but I also imagine the power level isn't bothering you either. Also you said that you have played other characters too since this character was created right? My thing is that if the power level is bothering you then you have to unhook progression from your story at some point.

I think my player with the most XP just hit 640. I still have no trouble challenging the group. He went down from one very good hit from a Stormtrooper minion group. Granted he's a Doctor/Gunslinger and definitely a glass cannon.

I am planning to slow earned XP a bit now that they're hitting three specs, or two and a Signature Ability, or two and some Force powers. But I agree with many that these characters really just recently hit their stride. There's still much more to explore both narratively and build-wise.

On the other hand, you could also play a very satisfying campaign within 300-500 earned XP. The game scales any way you want.

12 hours ago, Archlyte said:

I understand what you are saying but I also imagine the power level isn't bothering you either. Also you said that you have played other characters too since this character was created right? My thing is that if the power level is bothering you then you have to unhook progression from your story at some point.

"Power level" has never been an issue with me. I typically play skill-based advancement systems, not level based. So you don't have that "power creep" you get with D&D and its ilk. The same here. You don't really have that "power creep". Yes, your characters do get better as they advance, but they don't suddenly get much more "healthy" or able to absorb much more damage. So a minion group of Storm troopers is still a threat for a 2000XP Jedi Master as it is for a 100 starting XP smuggler.

2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

"Power level" has never been an issue with me. I typically play skill-based advancement systems, not level based. So you don't have that "power creep" you get with D&D and its ilk. The same here. You don't really have that "power creep". Yes, your characters do get better as they advance, but they don't suddenly get much more "healthy" or able to absorb much more damage. So a minion group of Storm troopers is still a threat for a 2000XP Jedi Master as it is for a 100 starting XP smuggler.

That is not how FFG Star Wars scales. It does it scale up less than other systems but it does still scale up a lot. It does in fact get more and more difficult to challenge PCs the more XP they get. The 1200XP Jedi in my group is probably going to go first and hit you with a Linked 3 Lightsaber attack while the 100 XP Smuggler is actually threatened by a squad of stormtroopers.

12 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

That is not how FFG Star Wars scales. It does it scale up less than other systems but it does still scale up a lot. It does in fact get more and more difficult to challenge PCs the more XP they get. The 1200XP Jedi in my group is probably going to go first and hit you with a Linked 3 Lightsaber attack while the 100 XP Smuggler is actually threatened by a squad of stormtroopers.

You can't buy more Initiative slot with XP, but GM can always send 2 squads if 1 dies instantly.

4 hours ago, Rimsen said:

You can't buy more Initiative slot with XP, but GM can always send 2 squads if 1 dies instantly.

Just kill 2 squads per turn, problem solved. ☝️

4 hours ago, Rimsen said:

You can't buy more Initiative slot with XP, but GM can always send 2 squads if 1 dies instantly.

Of course. But in high XP groups a single PC slot can kill or at least severely diminish a single squad and the PCs will get most of the early slots. So you can also load up on squads in the encounter to account for this but already this is an indication that the encounter is scaling way up for a higher XP group (as it should).

The point is it does get more difficult to challenge PCs the more XP they get. The number of Stormtrooper squads (and ST's in a squad) to overwhelm the group is drastically different if the group is Starting PCs vs 1200XP PCs. There are ways to challenge high XP characters but the notion that "a minion group of Storm troopers is still a threat for a 2000XP Jedi Master as it is for a 100 starting XP smuggler" is simply not true.

Maybe Tramp Graphics was trying to say that Stormtrooper squads can still be part of interesting and challenging encounters for high XP characters and I'd agree but it's not at "as it is for a 100 starting XP smuggler" because it's more complicated and challenging to do so (and still keep it interesting).

10 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Of course. But in high XP groups a single PC slot can kill or at least severely diminish a single squad and the PCs will get most of the early slots. So you can also load up on squads in the encounter to account for this but already this is an indication that the encounter is scaling way up for a higher XP group (as it should).

The point is it does get more difficult to challenge PCs the more XP they get. The number of Stormtrooper squads (and ST's in a squad) to overwhelm the group is drastically different if the group is Starting PCs vs 1200XP PCs. There are ways to challenge high XP characters but the notion that "a minion group of Storm troopers is still a threat for a 2000XP Jedi Master as it is for a 100 starting XP smuggler" is simply not true.

Maybe Tramp Graphics was trying to say that Stormtrooper squads can still be part of interesting and challenging encounters for high XP characters and I'd agree but it's not at "as it is for a 100 starting XP smuggler" because it's more complicated and challenging to do so (and still keep it interesting).

I agree with you, it's definitely not the same, i should express myself clearer.

I mean I don't get why 1200 xp PC should be challenged with normal Stormtroopers... Narratively, after that much XP they should be worthy enough for more unique and dangerous enemies, (a group of Deathtroopers or Royal Guards won't fall from 1 shot) thus no point measuring them against a simple minion group. They should go through them like womprats, they are well above mere muscle guys like a starting PC (who are still better than average ppl).

What I stated however, that you shouldn't just pump up the number, because we all know, that 3 Stormtroopers with YYG still could punch on PCs who are not tanks or jedi, provided they can shoot. So as a GM orchestrate your scenes, so the PCs can't dispose them at once (like 2 groups coming from 2 sides, so 1 shot can only kill 1 group) even if they get initiative. It makes the narrative more interesting IMO as opposed to just adding more and more dice to the opponent.

6 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Of course. But in high XP groups a single PC slot can kill or at least severely diminish a single squad and the PCs will get most of the early slots. So you can also load up on squads in the encounter to account for this but already this is an indication that the encounter is scaling way up for a higher XP group (as it should).

The point is it does get more difficult to challenge PCs the more XP they get. The number of Stormtrooper squads (and ST's in a squad) to overwhelm the group is drastically different if the group is Starting PCs vs 1200XP PCs. There are ways to challenge high XP characters but the notion that "a minion group of Storm troopers is still a threat for a 2000XP Jedi Master as it is for a 100 starting XP smuggler" is simply not true.

Maybe Tramp Graphics was trying to say that Stormtrooper squads can still be part of interesting and challenging encounters for high XP characters and I'd agree but it's not at "as it is for a 100 starting XP smuggler" because it's more complicated and challenging to do so (and still keep it interesting).

Actually my point is that how much damage a given PC can take (how high his Wound Threshold is) doesn't change all that much between a starting character and a high XP character; potentially a few points here and there from a couple of ranks in Toughness if any of his/her specs have that talent, but that's about it. As such, a Storm trooper squad can (with the right initiative) still potentially seriously injure a high XP character. As such, a Storm trooper squad is still a threat to a High XP character.

On 4/25/2019 at 3:49 PM, Jedi Ronin said:

That is not how FFG Star Wars scales. It does it scale up less than other systems but it does still scale up a lot. It does in fact get more and more difficult to challenge PCs the more XP they get. The 1200XP Jedi in my group is probably going to go first and hit you with a Linked 3 Lightsaber attack while the 100 XP Smuggler is actually threatened by a squad of stormtroopers.

FFG Star Wars scales how you want it to scale, which makes it highly table-dependent. If you encourage breadth you can easily play well past that. My son's 1200XP Jedi has only 3 ranks (4 Cunning, he's a Sentinel) and no special talents for lightsaber. In the game, he scales like a just-Knighted Old Republic Jedi, nothing terribly flashy, but lots of independent capability (as he should be). Stormtroopers would still be a problem. If you have a table where players only focus on their specialties, then even 600XP can seem like overkill, but it's really up to the GM to set this up and manage it.

On 4/26/2019 at 1:59 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

Actually my point is that how much damage a given PC can take (how high his Wound Threshold is) doesn't change all that much between a starting character and a high XP character; potentially a few points here and there from a couple of ranks in Toughness if any of his/her specs have that talent, but that's about it. As such, a Storm trooper squad can (with the right initiative) still potentially seriously injure a high XP character. As such, a Storm trooper squad is still a threat to a High XP character.

Potential? Sure. Anything can happen when you’re rolling dice.

If your point is simply that wound threshold doesn’t change a lot typically compared to blaster rifle damage then I agree.

But a high XP character’s wound threshold is only one - and the least significant - of the many factors involved in the scenario you described (whether that just stormtroopers being a serious threat generally or being a threat to a 2000xp Jedi Master) which mean that it’s highly likely that you will have to scale up encounters significantly (even with stormtroopers) to seriously threaten high xp characters (much less 2000xp Jedi masters). But maybe you don’t mean serious threat and just mean “threat” in the most literal sense (and assume the most favorable circumstances for the adversary) rather than the practical sense (what’s likely and typical).

19 hours ago, whafrog said:

FFG Star Wars scales how you want it to scale, which makes it highly table-dependent. If you encourage breadth you can easily play well past that. My son's 1200XP Jedi has only 3 ranks (4 Cunning, he's a Sentinel) and no special talents for lightsaber. In the game, he scales like a just-Knighted Old Republic Jedi, nothing terribly flashy, but lots of independent capability (as he should be). Stormtroopers would still be a problem. If you have a table where players only focus on their specialties, then even 600XP can seem like overkill, but it's really up to the GM to set this up and manage it.

I wouldn’t say it scales how I (or one) wants it to scale as much as it’s highly dependent on PC choices. So maybe we’re talking about the same thing we just use different terms.

The PCs in my group have breadth. The super soldier mercenary with Last One Standing that can annihilate most things with regular attacks (he doesn’t even use auto fire weapons) has gotten up to Presence 4 and is specializing in Leadership and mass combat.

One of the Jedi who pulled off a Linked 3 Lightsaber Attack last session against the Inquisitor (after succeeding in resisting a Harm attempt) started as Starfighter Ace (and has most of that spec) has also been the party face for most of the campaign and bought into a number of Force Powers as well.

These characters have focused on combat but not exclusively and neglected other things. They are quite good at other things.

There’s only one PC in the group that I’d say is still threatened by a stormtrooper squad and that’s the spy/doc/hacker Bothan who has totally ignored combat ability. But that’s not the scenario I was responding to or talking about. So if the point is really “you can make a 1200XP character that’s still threatened by a stormtrooper squad” then I agree but that character is very likely surrounded by characters who are not.

20 hours ago, whafrog said:

If you have a table where players only focus on their specialties, then even 600XP can seem like overkill, but it's really up to the GM to set this up and manage it.

Also, I’m curious what exactly you mean by this.

20 hours ago, whafrog said:

FFG Star Wars scales how you want it to scale, which makes it highly table-dependent. If you encourage breadth you can easily play well past that. My son's 1200XP Jedi has only 3 ranks (4 Cunning, he's a Sentinel) and no special talents for lightsaber. In the game, he scales like a just-Knighted Old Republic Jedi, nothing terribly flashy, but lots of independent capability (as he should be). Stormtroopers would still be a problem. If you have a table where players only focus on their specialties, then even 600XP can seem like overkill, but it's really up to the GM to set this up and manage it.

Another question: you don’t scale or change much “stormtroopers” encounters much compared to when they started out to now? What changes have you made and what’s the same?

57 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Potential? Sure. Anything can happen when you’re rolling dice.

If your point is simply that wound threshold doesn’t change a lot typically compared to blaster rifle damage then I agree.

But a high XP character’s wound threshold is only one - and the least significant - of the many factors involved in the scenario you described (whether that just stormtroopers being a serious threat generally or being a threat to a 2000xp Jedi Master) which mean that it’s highly likely that you will have to scale up encounters significantly (even with stormtroopers) to seriously threaten high xp characters (much less 2000xp Jedi masters). But maybe you don’t mean serious threat and just mean “threat” in the most literal sense (and assume the most favorable circumstances for the adversary) rather than the practical sense (what’s likely and typical).

I’m talking about a threat in general. In a level based system, like D&D, where a PC’s health goes up along with everything else, there comes a point where what could threaten them at lower levels doesn’t stand any chance of threatening them at higher levels. By contrast, in skill based systems, such as that used in Cyberpunk, a street punk with a pistol can still kill a master Solo who has a 10 in Combat Sense, and maxed out handgun skill, potentially with a single shot (Cyberpunk is a very deadly game). This system is more like Cyberpunk in this regard.

22 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I’m talking about a threat in general. In a level based system, like D&D, where a PC’s health goes up along with everything else, there comes a point where what could threaten them at lower levels doesn’t stand any chance of threatening them at higher levels. By contrast, in skill based systems, such as that used in Cyberpunk, a street punk with a pistol can still kill a master Solo who has a 10 in Combat Sense, and maxed out handgun skill, potentially with a single shot (Cyberpunk is a very deadly game). This system is more like Cyberpunk in this regard.

I don’t know anything about cyberpunk system but I take your word for it. And if that’s your point that FFG is more like that in that particular way with wounds than most level based systems then I agree but this system does scale up significantly the more XP characters have and I think it gets significantly less deadly the more XP characters have against the same threats (though a lot less than level based systems).

12 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I don’t know anything about cyberpunk system but I take your word for it. And if that’s your point that FFG is more like that in that particular way with wounds than most level based systems then I agree but this system does scale up significantly the more XP characters have and I think it gets significantly less deadly the more XP characters have against the same threats (though a lot less than level based systems).

Well this system is a lot less deadly overall. By contrast, Cyberpunk is very deadly, where a single hit could be fatal, no matter how experienced the character. However, what both of these systems have in common is that it’s only the skill and talent of the character that really scales up, not his or her health, or how much damage he or she can take. So what makes higher XP characters more dangerous is their own offensive capabilities, not so much their ability to take damage.

10 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Well this system is a lot less deadly overall. By contrast, Cyberpunk is very deadly, where a single hit could be fatal, no matter how experienced the character. However, what both of these systems have in common is that it’s only the skill and talent of the character that really scales up, not his or her health, or how much damage he or she can take. So what makes higher XP characters more dangerous is their own offensive capabilities, not so much their ability to take damage.

Agreed. A strong offense is the best defense in this game. And XP gets a character a lot more offensive power in this game than defensive ability, offense is superior to defense.

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Agreed. A strong offense is the best defense in this game. And XP gets a character a lot more offensive power in this game than defensive ability, offense is superior to defense.

Depending upon how you spend that XP.

My character is sitting about 1k xp and I feel he has a long way to go. Only 3 specializations right now (armorer, soresu, Hermet) and all 3 are not even maxed. since you have to put xp between specializations and skills and maybe force powers 1k xp doesnt go to far. Just hit 4 force and now I need to put some xp in to some basic force powers that can benifit from it. I also would like to maybe learn more about flying starfighters since our group got a hold of some x-wings. I still need to finish my lightsaber specialization and my first specialization as well. I really feel like I can still put in another 500 xp into what I have now before I even try starfighter ace or something like that. My character is also a mandolorian so I'm going to try and build him to what a mandaloian would be or how a mandalorian/Jedi might be like or something close.

12 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Depending upon how you spend that XP.

That’s not been my experience.

This game puts defense behind offense right out of the gate. Things are easy to hit (and as you’ve been highlighting wound thresholds are by default fairly vulnerable to basic weaponry available to common enemies and at character creation) relative to characteristics and skills and and defensive talents and equipment doesn’t bridge that gap and keep up with offensive talents and equipment. There are some really cool and effective defensive builds but they are pretty singular (and still don’t eclipse the premium offensive options) while offensive options are widely available to many Specializations and there are more varied offensive options to good offense. How many threads have we seen where GMs are looking to fix auto fire? Or challenging PCs with high agility and a blaster rifle? Many. Threads on dealing with PCs that are too tough? Almost non existent as far as I’ve seen.

14 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Also, I’m curious what exactly you mean by this.

Which part? It seems self-explanatory, but then I'm inside my own thought process...

14 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Another question: you don’t scale or change much “stormtroopers” encounters much compared to when they started out to now? What changes have you made and what’s the same?

It's a solo campaign, so I have to be careful. Two rivals with heavy blasters is a big problem. It's the old "5 PCs took down my nemesis in one turn" problem, only in reverse. So I tend to minion-ize the opponents, using larger single groups instead of smaller multi-groups. It's all about attack frequency.

3 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

That’s not been my experience.

This game puts defense behind offense right out of the gate. Things are easy to hit (and as you’ve been highlighting wound thresholds are by default fairly vulnerable to basic weaponry available to common enemies and at character creation) relative to characteristics and skills and and defensive talents and equipment doesn’t bridge that gap and keep up with offensive talents and equipment. There are some really cool and effective defensive builds but they are pretty singular (and still don’t eclipse the premium offensive options) while offensive options are widely available to many Specializations and there are more varied offensive options to good offense. How many threads have we seen where GMs are looking to fix auto fire? Or challenging PCs with high agility and a blaster rifle? Many. Threads on dealing with PCs that are too tough? Almost non existent as far as I’ve seen.

That's not what I mean. Take two PCs with equal amounts of XP. The PC who spends most of his XP on combat skills and combat talents is going to be much more dangerous in combat than the PC who spends most, or all of his XP on more "cerebral" or "social" pursuits to the exclusion of combat skills and talents. As such, how a player spends his XP on his character will heavily determine how effective that PC is in a given role, or how deadly he is in combat.

My gaming group just broke 1500 XP, and they are still going strong.