Gimli's Ability: After you attack, you may place 1 card from the test on top of your deck".

Now, this happen before or after the "Step 4—Counterattack"?

Since the counterattack is a step in the attacking action, I would say after , and then he can choose to put on top of the deck one card of his attack test and the ones to deny the counterattack. But I would like some confirmations.

I'd say it happens just after you resolve attack test, so before Counterattack. It seems more logical to me, but I don't see any clear responses to that in Rules Compendium.

I didn't spend a ton of time with the rulebook at Adepticon and won't be getting my own copy until next month probably, so I'm sorry that I can't tell you what the rules say, exactly?

But flavorfully I feel like his ability should be designed to help him tank some damage, so allowing you to put a success back from the actual swinging of the axe to help you handle the counter attack seems like it should be the case to me. I know we played it that way, though it's not like the demo guy knew the rules very well (I ended up looking some things up out of curiosity when he was just going to assume one way or another to keep it easier 😂 No shade there, I get that that's good demo work, I just wanted to know how it was supposed to work 😜 ).

I think this happen before counterattack. The ability say: After you attack, no after your attack action.

I'm pretty sure the sequence goes:

• You declare an Attack action
• You flip cards for the attack, use Strike abilities, etc.
• You assign the hits to the enemy, discard the revealed skill cards, and use Gimli's ability to return one of those cards to the top of your deck
• Then the App asks "can enemy attack?"
• Therefore, you will know which card is on top of your deck for the Negate test that would occur
  • Note: You can choose to not test for Negate, in order to keep that card on top of your deck. For example, maybe you plan on interacting with your 2nd action and would rather just take damage (or maybe use other prepared Guard cards) so that you can keep a Success Icon on top of your deck for your 2nd action.

33 minutes ago, Faranim said:

Note: You can choose to not test for Negate, in order to keep that card on top of your deck. For example, maybe you plan on interacting with your 2nd action and would rather just take damage (or maybe use other prepared Guard cards) so that you can keep a Success Icon on top of your deck for your 2nd action.

I’m going to have to disagree with you there.

When an enemy attacks a hero, that hero tests to negate damage and fear (12.8 and 22.1).

When performing tests, The hero reveals a number of cards from their skill deck equal to the value of their stat that is being tested . (100.1)

So you must draw cards and you must draw as many as the stat you are using to test by.

The Learn to Play guide says that testing to Negate is optional.

Learn to Play Guide, Page 12, Negating Damage and Fear (emphasis mine):

Quote

A hero may be granted a chance to negate damage or fear before they suffer it. When this occurs, the hero is presented with a stat to test (e.g., “Each hero in darkness suffers 2 fear;  negates.”). Before suffering the damage or fear, the hero may test the indicated stat , and each success (  ) icon produced during that test prevents one damage or fear.

I submitted this question via the support link and received this reply:

Quote

When an effect would happen after an attack, all the steps of that attack must fully resolve before that effect can resolve. So, both Gimli's ability and the Captain card Lead the Charge would happen after Step 4, the enemy counterattack.

I'm getting this question a lot, so I will be including it in the first FAQ we post.

Excellent and as I thought step 4 is done before triggering the skill. This makes the gimpli's ability a bit pointless but that's okay.

It's still very useful if you attack and plan on attacking or interacting again, whether it's your own turn or a bonus action granted by things like Lead the Charge.

This is weird. So with Gimli's ability, it seems that after your attack test, you put the cards from your attack test aside, then draw to negate the counterattack. And after that, you decide if you want to put one card from your attack test on top of your deck.
What happens if you have to reshuffle during the negate test? Do you have to shuffle back the cards from the attack test and forfeit the use of the ability?

17 hours ago, galehar said:

This is weird. So with Gimli's ability, it seems that after your attack test, you put the cards from your attack test aside, then draw to negate the counterattack. And after that, you decide if you want to put one card from your attack test on top of your deck.
What happens if you have to reshuffle during the negate test? Do you have to shuffle back the cards from the attack test and forfeit the use of the ability? 

The ability say " you may place 1 card from the test on top of your deck", don't say attack test or negate test, so you can choose 1 card coming from both tests, but just one

The ability says:

”after you attack, you may plase 1 card from the test on the top of your deck”

i read it is one card...

1 hour ago, Hannibal_pjv said:

The ability says:

”after you attack, you may plase 1 card from the test on the top of your deck”

i read it is one card.  .. 

yes, but you can choose it both from those of the attack test and from those of the elude test if there has been a counter-attack.

At what point are the cards then discarded? And when do you reshuffle your deck? And which cards do you reshuffle?

Let's imagine a scenario where Gimli first attacks and draws 4 cards. He is then counter attacked and draws another 4 cards to negate damage. Now, what if Gimli takes too much damage and needs to do a last stand? Meaning he could potentially draw another 4 cards, making it quite likely that his deck would be empty before he gets all 12 cards on the table. So how would reshuffling and selecting the card to place on top of the deck be handled in this case?

Or would he put the chosen card on top of his deck after the counter attack but before the last stand test? Which would give very good odds of always having at least one success for the last stand test.

17 hours ago, Shooock said:

The ability say " you may place 1 card from the test on top of your deck", don't say attack test or negate test, so you can choose 1 card coming from both tests, but just one

When it says “the test” I feel it’s clear that it refers to the test from the attack. But it’s poorly worded, for sure.

Yeesh, is all I can say. Not very intuitive.

I've always played it that it's done immediately after the attack test, since it states "the test". As pointed out, it doesn't make sense to do another test (negate test) first and then use the ability, due to the shuffling/discarding issue. Obviously I'd like my successes shuffled into my deck if given the option (and if I was going into a last stand for sure), but does that mean I could select a weakness card to make the negate test or last stand have better odds? It's completely ridiculous that way.

As for Lead the charge, it makes sense to do it after the counterattack, because there's no deck issue and it seems to fit the intention of the card. But Gimli's ability was designed to be immediately after in my opinion.

1 hour ago, *player3640663 said:

I've always played it that it's done immediately after the attack test, since it states "the test". As pointed out, it doesn't make sense to do another test (negate test) first and then use the ability, due to the shuffling/discarding issue. Obviously I'd like my successes shuffled into my deck if given the option (and if I was going into a last stand for sure), but does that mean I could select a weakness card to make the negate test or last stand have better odds? It's completely ridiculous that way.

As for Lead the charge, it makes sense to do it after the counterattack, because there's no deck issue and it seems to fit the intention of the card. But Gimli's ability was designed to be immediately after in my opinion.

The problem is that you cannot apply "having sense" in a rulebook, the rules must be applied as written otherwise 10,000 exceptions arise.

1 hour ago, *player3640663 said:

I've always played it that it's done immediately after the attack test, since it states "the test". As pointed out, it doesn't make sense to do another test (negate test) first and then use the ability, due to the shuffling/discarding issue. Obviously I'd like my successes shuffled into my deck if given the option (and if I was going into a last stand for sure), but does that mean I could select a weakness card to make the negate test or last stand have better odds? It's completely ridiculous that way.

That's a really good point. In a situation, where you know that you would likely be knocked out during the counter attack, it would then be better to choose a weakness card to improve the odds of surviving the negate and last stand tests. You are right, that does seem quite ridiculous.

7 hours ago, AstroChicken said:

That's a really good point. In a situation, where you know that you would likely be knocked out during the counter attack, it would then be better to choose a weakness card to improve the odds of surviving the negate and last stand tests. You are right, that does seem quite ridiculous.

Thank you! But I think the questions remain to be stated:

1) If the wording "after the attack" resolves after step 4 (counterattack), when does the last stand fit into all of this?

2) How can you place "one card from the test" if you already had to shuffle` (and if you set it aside, doesn't that mess with the odds in weird ways, thereby breaking up the seamless card mechanics -- eg. I could set aside a weakness to improve the negate test odds)?

3) which test is "the test" (attack or negate)?

Edit: I submitted these to admin. Hopefully there'll be an answer, because I really like using Gimli.

Thank you for submitting the questions listed above. I am very curious to know the answers. For now, it's the only unanswered question I have.

I wonder how they did it in the playtest?

Thank Manwë that it's my game and I get to play it however it makes sense to me! ::board game police work for Sauron::

6 hours ago, HirumaShigure said:

Thank Manwë that it's my game and I get to play it however it makes sense to me! ::board game police work for Sauron::

I mean, that's a fair point. I've been playing it my way as well (putting a card from the attack test back on top immediately). If this was a minor rule I wouldn't think too hard about it, but this is a character ability and it has a pretty significant effect. This game was designed quite well and if possible I'd like to follow the designer's wish for this ability, or at the least know what that wish was.

On 4/25/2019 at 10:27 PM, *player3640663 said:

I've always played it that it's done immediately after the attack test, since it states "the test". As pointed out, it doesn't make sense to do another test (negate test) first and then use the ability, due to the shuffling/discarding issue. Obviously I'd like my successes shuffled into my deck if given the option (and if I was going into a last stand for sure), but does that mean I could select a weakness card to make the negate test or last stand have better odds? It's completely ridiculous that way.

As for Lead the charge, it makes sense to do it after the counterattack, because there's no deck issue and it seems to fit the intention of the card. But Gimli's ability was designed to be immediately after in my opinion.

I agree with you on this one. I did read above that they will FAQ it but it just seems/feels wrong. Bad ruling IMHO. Bad.