Just now, Jedi Ronin said:

I didn’t miss that but you haven’t explained how it’s a crutch. According to the text it results in a “extremely effective” style. Yes it’s part of the style. On purpose. Because it works well. How do you define crutch? And with that “crutch” it’s extremely effective which is the whole point of a style- bringing all your tools to bear.

It’s a crutch because the user is relying on Force powers instead of his lightsaber in order to make up for its lack rigorous lightsaber trading. None of the other forms rely on Force powers in order to be effective. Niman requires the use of Force powers in order to match even the minimum effectiveness of any of the other forms. The other forms can match or exceed Niman in effectiveness without the use of Force powers. As such the use of Force powers in Niman is a crutch since they’re used specifically to make up for Niman’s inherent deficiencies with the lightsaber.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Based upon the original source material, it is exactly as I mean it. Niman was extremely common, and thus what the average Jedi might take as a form, but it wasn’t the minimum required learning for all Jedi. It wasn’t a form all Jedi absolutely had to learn in order to progress to other forms like Shii-Cho is. It was simply extremely common among Jedi because it was easy to learn, which allowed them to focus more on other studies.

I agree KoF didn’t mean that it was the basis of learning but that was in widespread practice but instead of your connotation that it’s “lightsaber use for dummies” it’s described as effective and the culmination of the others forms but without some of their strengths but also without the weaknesses (in other words it’s an effective style).

57 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

niman gets you a lot for a little investment, and most diplomats don't go beyond that, but those who actually devote themselves to niman can be absolutely deadly

@Tramp Graphics you haven't addressed the wookieepedia I quoted including the knights of the old republic quote that said it had no weaknesses. Exar Kunn also used niman and was absolute badass with a lightsaber.

By the way I'm still waiting for your soresu build, man up or shut up. If you decline you concede.

15 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It’s a crutch because the user is relying on Force powers instead of his lightsaber in order to make up for its lack rigorous lightsaber trading. None of the other forms rely on Force powers in order to be effective. Niman requires the use of Force powers in order to match even the minimum effectiveness of any of the other forms. The other forms can match or exceed Niman in effectiveness without the use of Force powers. As such the use of Force powers in Niman is a crutch since they’re used specifically to make up for Niman’s inherent deficiencies with the lightsaber.

That’s not what a crutch is. This isn’t how styles work. Throwing punches in Jui-jitsu isn’t a crutch it’s a thing you need to know how to do. If shooting someone is part of your style it’s not a crutch. If it works. As far as styles are concerned if it works that’s what matters.

And telekinesis along with everything else doesn’t give it minimum effectiveness but rather extremely effective.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Defensively, Niman is adequate, but with only three ranks each in Parry and Reflect, and no Improved or Supreme versions of those two, I wouldn’t call it “on par”. Makashi has the most ranks in Parry with five ranks, though it lacks both Improved Parry and Supreme Parry, and Soresu has the second most ranks in Parry with four. Soresu also has both Improved Parry and Supreme Parry, making it the best overall for parrying. While Soresu also only has three ranks in Reflect, it also has Improved Reflect. Shien as well has three ranks in Reflect, but also has both Improved Reflect and Supreme Reflect, thus it is the absolute best at Reflect. Niman doesn’t come close.

Ataru has one talent that helps with Strain recovery, but it only helps at the end of the encounter , not during the fight itself. As such, it doesn’t help him better survive the fight as it occurs. By contrast, with Supreme Parry, a Soresu Defender won’t lose much Strain to begin with, and it includes multiple ranks in Grit, which Ataru completely lacks any ranks in, and thus will likely have a higher Strain Threshold than the Ataru Striker. As such, he can afford to take more Strain than an Ataru Striker with the same Willpower. Add to that Soresu has more ranks in Parry than Ataru, the Soresu Defender is far more likely to outlast the Ataru Striker all else being equal.

Wrong. You’re using the wrong definition for “standard”, and thus misinterpreting what the article says. And, as I also said, your interpretation is not backed up by the original source material from which that article is based. The original source materials, including Jedi Path, explicitly state that all Jedi studied Shii-Cho as younglings but then each went on to study any one of the other five forms based upon their preferences or natural inclinations. Niman was never required learning. Only Shii-Cho was required of all Jedi younglings. And that was because Shii-Cho was the foundation upon which all other lightsaber forms were built. They had to know it in order to even be capable of learning any of the others. Niman is not required in order to learn Soresu. It is not required in order to learn Ataru. It is not required in order to learn Shien. It is not required in order to learn Makashi. A Jedi didn’t need to know it in order to even grasp the other forms. So, no, it was not “the” standard which every Jedi had to know. It was simply standard (normal) for many Jedi to learn it because of its ease.

Linked the original source you are wrong. check my edit in the post you are quoting above. You are also using the wrong source for the quote I am refering to and the one refering to it as "the standard" during the clone wars. It was not Jedi Path but, Jedi vs Sith the essential guide to the force and is a direct quote from a class that Cin Drallig (the jedi battle master and instructor at the time of the clone wars) is teaching. Specifically teaching younglings (going over forms before starting Form VI training)

Edit: also by the fact that you think I am saying you are required to know niman to learn the other forms is also showing a lack of understanding what I am saying. Please go back to my last 2 or 3 posts and re-read them I am not stating that you need to learn Niman to learn the other forms I am saying that everyone was held to Niman's standards of quality IE you need to be able to block blaster bolts AT LEAST as well as a niman practitioner, you need to duel 1 vs 1 AT LEAST as well as a niman user does.... so on and so forth. I am not using standard wrong you are not understanding what I am saying, if you did we probably would not be arguing. Also according to Cin Drallig and the source that I linked younglings were first taught Form I and then taught the basics of all VI forms, one by one wrapping up with VI and taking the basics you learned of the other V and using them in moderation with VI.


Edit 2: "greetings Padawans I am Cin Drallig, your instructor in lightsaber discipline. I have no doubt that you all believe you know something of the seven forms of lightsaber combat. All of you spent your first year studying Form 1 and most of you have spent a year or two studying each additional form through Form V." Pg 130 Star Wars Jedi vs Sith: the essential guide to the force. At the end of the lecture "and now let's meditate before we begin basic exercises for Form VI"

39 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

@Tramp Graphics you haven't addressed the wookieepedia I quoted including the knights of the old republic quote that said it had no weaknesses. Exar Kunn also used niman and was absolute badass with a lightsaber.

By the way I'm still waiting for your soresu build, man up or shut up. If you decline you concede.

No I don’t, I’m just not playing your games. There’s a difference.

The passage you linked to does not say that Niman lacks any weaknesses. All it says on the matter is that the form lack serious drawbacks. In fact, that same article reiterated that the Jedi who used Niman at Geonosis died specifically because of the form’s weaknesses. To quote:

Quote

During the various wars against the Sith , Niman was prized by some for its general versatility on the battlefield, though heavily criticized by others for being insufficiently demanding. [12] Over time, it became the standard in lightsaber training, and by the start of the Clone Wars , was one of the most common forms in the Jedi Order. [17] However, Niman demonstrated itself to be inadequate for the open battlefields of the Clone Wars, proven when all the Form VI adherents involved in the First Battle of Geonosis died in combat. [ 3]

So don’t try and tell me that Niman has no weaknesses. It certainly does. While it’s weaknesses may not otherwise be very serious , they do exist. Combine that with the fact that it’s Not exceptionally good at anything either compounds that, and is why so many died at Geonosis. Had the form required more rigorous training in the lightsaber, if it actually was exceptional at anything, they might have survived.

38 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

That’s not what a crutch is. This isn’t how styles work. Throwing punches in Jui-jitsu isn’t a crutch it’s a thing you need to know how to do.

And telekinesis along with everything else doesn’t give it minimum effectiveness but rather extremely effective.

That’s exactly what a crutch is. It’s something relied on excessively in order to compensate for some other deficiency. It’s a support. The use of Force powers in Niman is a support specifically used in order to cover for the deficiencies the form has in blade work. By definition , that’s a crutch.

18 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Linked the original source you are wrong. check my edit.

Edit: also by the fact that you think I am saying you are required to know niman to learn the other forms is also showing a lack of understanding what I am saying. Please go back to my last 2 or 3 posts and re-read them I am not stating that you need to learn Niman to learn the other forms I am saying that everyone was held to Niman's standards of quality. I am not using standard wrong you are not understanding what I am saying, if you did we probably would not be arguing. Also according to Cin Drallig and the source that I linked younglings were first taught Form I and then taught the basics of all VI forms, one by one wrapping up with VI and taking the basics you learned of the other V and using them in moderation with VI.

A Wiki article is not an original source. Jedi Path is an original source, the Essential Guides are original sources, the movies are original sources, the Visual Guides are original sources. A Wiki article, including Wookieepedia, is a quick reference , which can have varying degrees of accuracy, depending upon the site in question, nothing more. It is not an original source. The original sources state that only Shii-Cho was required learning of all Jedi students. Niman was never required learning.

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No I don’t, I’m just not playing your games. There’s a difference. The passage you linked to does not say that Niman lacks any weaknesses. All it says on the matter is that the form lack serious drawbacks. In fact, that same article reiterated that the Jedi who used Niman at Geonosis died specifically because of the form’s weaknesses. To quote:

So don’t try and tell me that Niman has no weaknesses. It certainly does. While it’s weak may not otherwise be very serious, they do exist. Combine that with the fact that it’s Not exceptionally good at anything either compounds that, and is why so many died at Geonosis. Had the form required more rigorous training in the lightsaber, if it actually was exceptional at anything, they might have survived.

That’s exactly what a crutch is. It’s something relied on excessively in order to compensate for some other deficiency. It’s a support. The use of Force powers in Niman is a support specifically used in order to cover for the deficiencies the form has in blade work. By definition , that’s a crutch.

A Wiki article is not an original source. Jedi Path is an original source, the Essential Guides are original sources, the movies are original sources, the Visual Guides are original sources. A Wiki article, including Wookieepedia, is a quick reference , which can have varying degrees of accuracy, depending upon the site in question, nothing more. It is not an original source. The original sources state that only Shii-Cho was required learning of all Jedi students. Niman was never required learning. 

Check the edit sir, I am DIRECTLY QUOTING the Essential guides.... and referencing the page I have the book PDF open right now. It takes me a bit to respond because I can not simply copy paste. And again you are miss understanding the way I am using "standard". please go back and re-read my last 2 or 3 posts.

13 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Check the edit sir, I am DIRECTLY QUOTING the Essential guides.... and referencing the page I have the book PDF open right now. It takes me a bit to respond because I can not simply copy paste.

Going over the different forms in sequence is not the same thing as having to study one specific form before learning another. The only form that absolutely required proficiency in order to learn any of the others is Shii-Cho . As the passage you quoted states, he went over the basics of each form one at a time, starting with Form I, which provides the fundamentals of all other forms, going through Makashi, Soresu, Ataru, Shien/Djem-So, and culminating in Form Niman. It does not say the students went into in-depth study, nor that he would be giving in-depth instruction. It’s nothing more than a brief introduction of each form in turn. The students were not required to become proficient in Niman before moving on to their preferred form. They were simply taught a basic overview of each form in turn to give them a small taste of what each is like. That’s something completely different from what you claimed. So, no, I was not wrong.

11 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No I don’t, I’m just not playing your games. There’s a difference.

The passage you linked to does not say that Niman lacks any weaknesses. All it says on the matter is that the form lack serious drawbacks. In fact, that same article reiterated that the Jedi who used Niman at Geonosis died specifically because of the form’s weaknesses. To quote:

So don’t try and tell me that Niman has no weaknesses. It certainly does. While it’s weaknesses may not otherwise be very serious , they do exist. Combine that with the fact that it’s Not exceptionally good at anything either compounds that, and is why so many died at Geonosis.

Man up or shut up Mike. Niman-disciple beats soresu in a duel in this system more often than not even not using telekinesis. If you disagree prove it with the duel. If you decline you conceed.

As for niman having no weaknesses ague with Kavar from KotOR 2 I think.

For superior balance, use the Niman form. This form has no specific strengths, but no weaknesses either. KAVAR

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Going over the different forms in sequence is not the same thing as having to study one specific form before learning another. The only form absolutely required to know in order to learn any of the others is Shii-Cho. As the passage you quoted states, he went over the basics of each form one at a time, starting with Form I, which provides the fundamentals of all other forms, going through Makashi, Soresu, Ataru, Shien/Djem-So, and culminating in Form Niman. It does not say the students went into in-depth study, nor that he would be giving in-depth instruction. It’s nothing more than a brief introduction of each form in turn. The students were not required to become proficient in Niman before moving on to their preferred form. They were simply taught a basic overview of each form in turn to give them a small taste of what each is like. That’s something completely different from what you claimed. So, no, I was not wrong.

You aren't listening. Read this next sentence very carefully. I am NOT saying they needed to learn one specific form before learning the others...... did you get that.. now re-read everything else with that sentence in mind, reframe that sentence in your mind and every time you think I am saying that repeat it to yourself again till you understand what I am actually saying. Also quoting one more time from the essential guide "Form VI, also called Niman, this form is the current standard in lightsaber training" page 132 Essential guide. You are held to Niman as the standard of quality with each scenario, not you are required to know niman to pass these things, but because niman has no weaknesses it is considered adequate for all scenarios. Other forms have weaknesses so you have to be up to Niman's standards in those forms weak areas to be considered "up to snuff".

21 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

59 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

That’s not what a crutch is. This isn’t how styles work. Throwing punches in Jui-jitsu isn’t a crutch it’s a thing you need to know how to do.

And telekinesis along with everything else doesn’t give it minimum effectiveness but rather extremely effective.

That’s  exactly what a crutch is. It’s something relied on excessively  in order to compensate for some other deficiency. It’s a sup  port. The use of Force powers in Niman is a support speci  fically used in order to cover for the deficiencies the for

I think you are selectively applying your definition of crutch. Makashi excessively uses Parry (weakening it against blasters). Soresu excessively applies defensive tactics (weakening it’s offense). Juyo excessively uses passion. Ataru excessively uses acrobatics , etc.

A style - in the real world or not - including an element or techniques or approaches to make it more effective is what they do. It’s practical and rational and how systems develop. It’s not a crutch unless you see improvement as bad.

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I think you are selectively applying your definition of crutch. Makashi excessively uses Parry (weakening it against blasters). Soresu excessively applies defensive tactics (weakening it’s offense). Juyo excessively uses passion. Ataru excessively uses acrobatics , etc.

A style - in the real world or not - including an element or techniques or approaches to make it more effective is what they do. It’s practical and rational and how systems develop. It’s not a crutch unless you see improvement as bad.

I am going to add to this and remind everyone that martial arts styles often times have a lot of muscle memory. The other forms do not teach you to implement your powers into your blade work, because of this practitioners of the other forms must train themselves to do this despite the other forms typical training regiment lacking this training. Thus a Niman user will do this technique more naturally as apart of their martial arts. This is Similar in respect that Ataru will use the form users body more throwing out more punches and kicks as it has a regiment for using not just the saber but the whole body. These are muscle memory things.

Just now, EliasWindrider said:

Man up or shut up Mike. Niman-disciple beats soresu in a duel in this system more often than not even not using telekinesis. If you disagree prove it with the duel. If you decline you conceed.

As for niman having no weaknesses ague with Kavar from KotOR 2 I think.

For superior balance, use the Niman form. This form has no specific strengths, but no weaknesses either. KAVAR

One character’s view not supported by the rest of the lore. Niman certainly does have weaknesses. This was proven at Geonosis.

1 minute ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I think you are selectively applying your definition of crutch. Makashi excessively uses Parry (weakening it against blasters). Soresu excessively applies defensive tactics (weakening it’s offense). Juyo excessively uses passion. Ataru excessively uses acrobatics , etc.

A style - in the real world or not - including an element or techniques or approaches to make it more effective is what they do. It’s practical and rational and how systems develop. It’s not a crutch unless you see improvement as bad.

Parrying is done with the lightsaber . It’s part and parcel of dueling and Melee in general. The use of Force powers is not. The original sources, including Jedi Path and Visual Guides state that the use of Force powers is done specifically to cover for the deficiencies in lightsaber technique inherent in Niman. That’s a crutch, not a fundamental part of melee combat.

23 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

One character’s view not supported by the rest of the lore. Niman certainly does have weaknesses. This was proven at Geonosis.

Lightsaber slackers die because they slack at the lightsaber regardless of which form they use. Just because most lightsaber slackers choose niman because they can get a lot of bang for little investment and stop then does not mean that someone who dedicates themself to the niman form, for example exar kunn, is going to be bad with a lightsaber. And again man up or shut up duel or conceed.

20 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

One character’s view not supported by the rest of the lore. Niman certainly does have weaknesses. This was proven at Geonosis.

Parrying is done with the lightsaber . It’s part and parcel of dueling and Melee in general. The use of Force powers is not. The original sources, including Jedi Path and Visual Guides state that the use of Force powers is done specifically to cover for the deficiencies in lightsaber technique inherent in Niman. That’s a crutch, not a fundamental part of melee combat.

To be accurate it was not Niman's weakness at Geonosis it was the weakness of it's practitioners at Geonosis. It was favored by those that wanted to spend as little time with lightsaber training as possible and still get by with passable skill. Everyone else there did not get by with simple "passable skills" also we do not see any makashi duelists at Geonosis save for Dooku, so let's go over the STRENGTHS of the forms we DO see at Geonosis survive.

Form 1 (strong against multiple opponents.... they are fighting multiple blaster wielding opponents... should be good). Form III Strongest defense (they specifically have to hold out till clones arrive... should be good) Form IV (highly acrobatic and great at taking out many opponents quickly... so just like Form 1 should be great against multiple blaster wielders.) Form V (based on form III .... should be good just like form III)... it was not that Form VI was weak against multiple blaster wielding opponents it was the fact that it was not amazing against multiple blaster wielding opponents which it needed to be to survive. Form VII does not count as users were required to get a pass from the council to even learn it and usually required knowledge of all VI of the other forms to get said pass also only user I know of at geonsosis is master of the council mace windu

On 5/12/2019 at 5:29 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

One character’s view not supported by the rest of the lore. Niman certainly does have weaknesses. This was proven at Geonosis.

Parrying is done with the lightsaber . It’s part and parcel of dueling and Melee in general. The use of Force powers is not. The original sources, including Jedi Path and Visual Guides state that the use of Force powers is done specifically to cover for the deficiencies in lightsaber technique inherent in Niman. That’s a crutch, not a fundamental part of melee combat.

You are being selective. You ignored all the other examples and picked the one you thought you could argue the best.

Parrying is done with the lightsaber but the excessive focus on that particular use makes it weak against blasters. So I guess it’s not a crutch but a sprained ankle requiring a crutch to remedy.

You have yet to explain why it matters at all that it’s blade work or “the force” matters at all. It doesn’t in fighting styles at all. From the Niman perspective all the other styles are leaving a good option on the table. Yes they added it to deal with a deficiency but the point is that it does deal with it producing a “extremely effective” result. It’s not a crutch but a bionic leg. That will drop the Senate on you if needed.

And all styles narratively and in the lore use the force to make it work. Sometimes to manipulate their own body, their own blade, s ense incoming attacks, etc. Niman manipulates others with the force but you are applying a distinction there that’s not important to a styles purpose. In jui-jutsu if you end up winning a fight because you’ve kicked them in the groin that’s good for you even if you didn’t use grappling (“blade work”).

Tramp has chickened out/conceeded so does anyone else want to build a starting xp only soresu defender no force powers plus all talents for free to do a demonstration bout?

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

Tramp has chickened out/conceeded so does anyone else want to build a starting xp only soresu defender no force powers plus all talents for free to do a demonstration bout?

I’m game. Sounds fun. DM me to discuss the details. I should be able to respond once a day this week.

6 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I didn’t miss that but you haven’t explained how it’s a crutch. According to the text it results in a “extremely effective” style. Yes it’s part of the style. On purpose. Because it works well. How do you define crutch? And with that “crutch” it’s extremely effective which is the whole point of a style- bringing all your tools to bear.

By his logic using sense defense and offense would be a crutch. As would Enhance and so on. But apparently Hawkbat swoop and saber swarm arent a crutch even though they use the force...

The more I analyze this thinking about character options the more I realize that Elias is right (I assumed he was but now I'm seeing it specifically).

I still think it will be fun to play it out but here's my own limited analysis (only using in style Talents):

Defensive Stance (Soresu): 16.2% chance to be missed (e.g., melee opponent missing)

Defensive Training (Niman): 19.4% chance to be missed

Same number of Reflect

Soresu has one more instance of Parry so it’s a bit better in damage reduction in style vs style

Soresu costs: action economy (Maneuver to get defense) and Strain, both every round

Niman costs: free (gets to Aim instead).

Soresu excels at spreading good defense to the party by giving them defense of making opponents attack the Soresu Defender.

Soresu excels at counter attack 15.3% chance to activate Improved with Despair

So if the question is style vs style directly Niman looks better unless you want to really count on that 15% counter attack chance.

If it’s what’s a style’s utility to the party or the character (whether they want to be a selfless tank/buffer or a "dueler") then it’s a different story and Soresu really shines (but so does Niman just in different ways).

26 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

The more I analyze this thinking about character options the more I realize that Elias is right (I assumed he was but now I'm seeing it specifically).

I still think it will be fun to play it out but here's my own limited analysis (only using in style Talents):

Defensive Stance (Soresu): 16.2% chance to be missed (e.g., melee opponent missing)

Defensive Training (Niman): 19.4% chance to be missed

Same number of Reflect

Soresu has one more instance of Parry so it’s a bit better in damage reduction in style vs style

Soresu costs: action economy (Maneuver to get defense) and Strain, both every round

Niman costs: free (gets to Aim instead).

Soresu excels at spreading good defense to the party by giving them defense of making opponents attack the Soresu Defender.

Soresu excels at counter attack 15.3% chance to activate Improved with Despair

So if the question is style vs style directly Niman looks better unless you want to really count on that 15% counter attack chance.

If it’s what’s a style’s utility to the party or the character (whether they want to be a selfless tank/buffer or a "dueler") then it’s a different story and Soresu really shines (but so does Niman just in different ways).

You need to adjust the odds of counter attack for soresu because 3 threat will also do it.

7 hours ago, Daeglan said:

You need to adjust the odds of counter attack for soresu because 3 threat will also do it.

When you're putting 2 red up against a yellow and 5 green... the chances of having 3 leftover threat lying around aren't very good.

7 hours ago, Daeglan said:

You need to adjust the odds of counter attack for soresu because 3 threat will also do it.

True, I did say my analysis was limited! The spread sheet I'm using (and didn't create) for the statistical analysis shows a 1.2% chance of 3 threat. I'm not sure how that interacts with the 15.3% chance of Despair so I just put out the Despair number. In any case I think this is probably in the ball park. Playing with it some more if one adds in things outside of Soresu like Sense (Despair: 21% 3Th: 3.8%) and Dodge (and/or more instances of Defensive Stance) (Despair: 25.7% 3Th: 7.3%) then you can get it higher. These 3 Threat assume 2Y2G instead of 1Y5G for the attacking pool, which is one reason why I didn't bother with the 3 threat portion - it's variable based on the attackers pool while Despair is basically constant.

It is a significant ability that gets better with more XP investment and it should be considered when comparing the trade-offs of what styles offer and what you'd like to play.

Although I do think it's fair to say that with claims that Soresu's defensive abilities are rivaled (or surpassed) by other styles like Niman that Improved Parry/Reflect don't play into it because they aren't defensive abilities but offensive ones. Improved is activated on the opponents turn reacting to their actions (that have to hit you if not necessarily doing damage) so it's activated during a defensive action (reducing damage) but is in itself an offensive option.

So after you guys do this challenge how about a "xp challenge" where you both start with "knight level play" human that has 120 XP and build any form vs any form..... Maybe I should make another thread for that I want to try Shien, but I KNOW that it probably won't do well no matter how much I love the idea of sentinels in this game. Still that said I love playing Artisan, but I find it funny how much I love it because of how much "not jedi" it is. Practical force users I always loved them.

3 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

So after you guys do this challenge how about a "xp challenge" where you both start with "knight level play" human that has 120 XP and build any form vs any form..... Maybe I should make another thread for that I want to try Shien, but I KNOW that it probably won't do well no matter how much I love the idea of sentinels in this game. Still that said I love playing Artisan, but I find it funny how much I love it because of how much "not jedi" it is. Practical force users I always loved them.

We used to have a "Build the Character" contests, each with their own theme (typically these contests had no XP or other constraints except for the theme like "Jedi" or "Bounty Hunters") and threads. It was just builds and not actually playing them off/against each other in a duel or anything like that but people would vote for their favorite build. Anyone could start that back up...

I've tried out Sentinel/Shien in several short-lived online games and I like it.