2 hours ago, Rogues Rule said:Why Sage and not Seer? 2x Rapid reaction synergizes nicely with 2x Quick strike talents of Ataru, Dodge, 2x Grit, 2x Toughend and so on.
For Sage I mainly see knowledge and social talents. (?)
If I recall correctly, sage is a cheaper path to the 2 force ratings, but I it's been a while since I checked, and either would work.
16 hours ago, tunewalker said:Actually standard means " a level of quality or attainment." or "a required or agreed level of quality or attainment." "an idea or thing used as a measure, norm, or model in comparative evaluations" it is the thing by which others are judged. If you do not have Niman you do not have the "basic compentency" with saber combat, you need to show beyond niman skill in ALL areas to be considered to have basic compentency. If you were a makashi user and did not have at least as good a deflection skill as Niman you were not considered up to the standards of saber combat. So most had training in Niman simply to shore up their weaknesses with the form they did choose. because it was the standard. It was the measuring stick, it was basic competency level that also means that anyone just using niman never had BEYOND the basic competency level which was my whole point and that says more about the users than the form.
to quote:
Quotestand·ard/ ˈstandərd /noun
synonyms: quality , level , grade , degree , worth , caliber , merit , excellence "the standard of work is very good"
synonyms: normal , usual , typical , stock , common , ordinary , customary , conventional , habitual , accustomed , expected , wonted , everyday , regular , routine , day-to-day , daily , established , settled, set , fixed , traditional , quotidian , prevailing "the standard rate of income tax"
Standard has multiple definitions. When used as an adjective to describe something as a "standard" whatever, it's whatever is normal or average for that whatever.
14 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:So your argument is not about this game and it’s mechanics but non-canon lore and perception? Is that why you are shying away from Elias’ challenge?
And on that account you didn’t address anything I said about it when you first brought it up.
And to bring it back to the original conversation- I don’t think it’s the end-all-be-all but I do think it has a lot to offer compared to the other forms in this game. You don’t. The original point was to make suggestions to the OP about what’s a good combination. They all have something to offer depending on what you’re looking for. Elias and I both think Niman is good in combination but others are free to suggest otherwise. Mechanically they all seemed designed to give Jedi PCs a way of being good with a lightsaber but also at other things in part by letting them use different characteristics in wielding a lightsaber.
What suggestions would you make to the OP about good combinations?
I agree with Elias that Ataru is very well balanced with the best offensive power and also offers Reflect and Improved Parry and some defensive stuff. It pairs well with a number of trees but I think particularly well with Seer as it offers more Force Rating (feeding general force ability and saber swarm) and more Dodge. But again the question in picking further specs is what do you want to be good at. Ataru already makes you great at attack so I’d prefer to round it out with force ability and mode defense (Dodge also helps Improved Parry).
Canon lore, not non-canon lore. Niman is average , and " moderate " in everything. It doesn't excel at any one thing. The other forms each excel at a given purpose. Soresu is the ultimate Defensive style, Shien is the best at blaster deflection, and counterattacks, Araru is the best at offense, Makashi is the best for one on one dueling. Shii-Cho is the foundation for all of them, and excellent for fighting multiple opponents.
Now, as to recommendations, it depends upon what you want your character to excel at.
For creating the "ultimate shield" I'd take Soresu Defender , Armorer , and Jedi Knight . These can be in any order so long as Armorer comes before Knight because of Knight's prerequisite of FR 2.
6 hours ago, Rogues Rule said:Would this not be a Makashi Duelist? I did not look at all the specs in detail, but when you cannot be disarmed but on the other hand easily disarm everyone else... what else do you need?
Yes, it would. Makashi is explicitly designed to be the best for single combat between lightsaber duelists.
22 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:
Yes, it would. Makashi is explicitly designed to be the best for single combat between lightsaber duelists.
Magnetic weapon tether, modded
Get it back as an incidental
And sum djem explicitly requires GM approval so it may not work against nemeses or other PCs
1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:to quote:
Standard has multiple definitions. When used as an adjective to describe something as a "standard" whatever, it's whatever is normal or average for that whatever.
Canon lore, not non-canon lore. Niman is average , and " moderate " in everything. It doesn't excel at any one thing. The other forms each excel at a given purpose. Soresu is the ultimate Defensive style, Shien is the best at blaster deflection, and counterattacks, Araru is the best at offense, Makashi is the best for one on one dueling. Shii-Cho is the foundation for all of them, and excellent for fighting multiple opponents.
Now, as to recommendations, it depends upon what you want your character to excel at.
For creating the "ultimate shield" I'd take Soresu Defender , Armorer , and Jedi Knight . These can be in any order so long as Armorer comes before Knight because of Knight's prerequisite of FR 2.
Yes, it would. Makashi is explicitly designed to be the best for single combat between lightsaber duelists.
Some of the fluff in the FFG books supports your outlook though I don’t think it pushes the idea that it’s average or subpar but designed for the option of somewhat different purposes being able to defend against violence with violence but also resolve it peacefully. But it is described as “focused on survival and defense instead of attack”. And it rivals Soresu.
But the mechanics I think introduce something different. It’s not average as you define it mechanically. As Elias points out it challenges Soresu for defense. It has some very strong talents.
Also by your description of the lore (you still haven’t cited it’s actual canon source for any or all the claims you’ve made, not that it matters) and the mechanics it does in fact excel at something over other styles: It’s balance. If you want to claim that in lore another style is better suited given a particular specific scenario sure, ok, but that’s not how things actually function (and may not be how things function mechanically in this game). A warrior often doesn’t get to choose but must confront challenges as they come. The lore you describe and the mechanics of this specific game will give the Niman Disciple an edge compare other styles in an array of common scenarios.
Will another style be better in a given situation? By lore, yes. But are you also claiming that it’s likely in a given scenario that Niman will always be the worst? That’s something very different and at odds with your claim it’s “average”. If you want to stick with Niman as average then that mathematically means it is in fact superior in some given situations.
So by lore and certainly mechanically in this system Niman will excel (while not also being the absolute best) at confronting an array of challenges.
I think you make a good recommendation for a good defensive character.
9 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:Some of the fluff in the FFG books supports your outlook though I don’t think it pushes the idea that it’s average or subpar but designed for the option of somewhat different purposes being able to defend against violence with violence but also resolve it peacefully. But it is described as “focused on survival and defense instead of attack”. And it rivals Soresu.
But the mechanics I think introduce something different. It’s not average as you define it mechanically. As Elias points out it challenges Soresu for defense. It has some very strong talents.
Also by your description of the lore (you still haven’t cited it’s actual canon source for any or all the claims you’ve made, not that it matters) and the mechanics it does in fact excel at something over other styles: It’s balance. If you want to claim that in lore another style is better suited given a particular specific scenario sure, ok, but that’s not how things actually function (and may not be how things function mechanically in this game). A warrior often doesn’t get to choose but must confront challenges as they come. The lore you describe and the mechanics of this specific game will give the Niman Disciple an edge compare other styles in an array of common scenarios.
Will another style be better in a given situation? By lore, yes. But are you also claiming that it’s likely in a given scenario that Niman will always be the worst? That’s something very different and at odds with your claim it’s “average”. If you want to stick with Niman as average then that mathematically means it is in fact superior in some given situations.
So by lore and certainly mechanically in this system Niman will excel (while not also being the absolute best) at confronting an array of challenges.
I think you make a good recommendation for a good defensive character.
No. It won't excel. It may be, at best, " adequate ". But it will never excel at anything. As I said, it's mediocre at best. That's why everyone who used that style in AotC died . So, it is not superior at anything. Every other form is superior to Niman in its given focus . Niman lacks any focus at all. Shii-Choo excels at mass melees, Makashi excels at one on one dueling, Soresu excels at defense, Ataru excels at offense, Shien excels at blaster deflection and counterattacks. Niman is, at best, adequate at each of these, but excels at none of them. As such, relies on Telekinesis to try to make up for its overall deficiencies in all of these areas.
I consider Soresu to be one of the best, if not the best, lightsaber forms because of its excellent defense. With strong defense, you can outlast a n equally strong offense, either forcing your foe to retreat, or tire out so you can deliver the final blow. With Ataru, while it's the best offense you can get, you burn through energy very quickly, so it behooves you to defeat your opponent as quickly as possible. Put a Soresu master against an Ataru master, and, likely the Soresu master will win, because the Ataru Master won't have the endurance. As we used to say in the Army, it takes a battalion of attackers to break through a company of well dug in defenders. In other words, it takes ten times the number of attackers as there are Defenders to successfully breech a defense in a straight up fight.
15 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:No. It won't excel. It may be, at best, " adequate ". But it will never excel at anything. As I said, it's mediocre at best. That's why everyone who used that style in AotC died . So, it is not superior at anything. Every other form is superior to Niman in its given focus . Niman lacks any focus at all. Shii-Choo excels at mass melees, Makashi excels at one on one dueling, Soresu excels at defense, Ataru excels at offense, Shien excels at blaster deflection and counterattacks. Niman is, at best, adequate at each of these, but excels at none of them. As such, relies on Telekinesis to try to make up for its overall deficiencies in all of these areas.
I consider Soresu to be one of the best, if not the best, lightsaber forms because of its excellent defense. With strong defense, you can outlast a n equally strong offense, either forcing your foe to retreat, or tire out so you can deliver the final blow. With Ataru, while it's the best offense you can get, you burn through energy very quickly, so it behooves you to defeat your opponent as quickly as possible. Put a Soresu master against an Ataru master, and, likely the Soresu master will win, because the Ataru Master won't have the endurance. As we used to say in the Army, it takes a battalion of attackers to break through a company of well dug in defenders. In other words, it takes ten times the number of attackers as there are Defenders to successfully breech a defense in a straight up fight.
I think you’re missing my point, not that you have to agree with it but I don’t think you see it because you didn’t actual address it. Though maybe you did clarify something for me: you think that given any scenario Niman will always be the worst at dealing with it compared to other styles?
And as a separate issue you think the mechanics back that up?
Edited by Jedi Ronin11 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:I think you’re missing my point, not that you have to agree with it but I don’t think you see it because you didn’t actual address it. Though maybe you did clarify something for me: you think that given any scenario Niman will always be the worst at dealing with it compares to other styles?
And as a separate issue you think the mechanics back that up?
The worst? No. But not excel at either. Ataru sucks at defense. Soresu is not very strong at offense. Each of the five main styles has their weaknesses, but they each excel at what they were designed to accomplish. However, Niman isn't very good at either offense or defense. It's only adequate . And, as AotC shows, "adequate" often isn't .
IF I want to shore up the weaknesses in a given form I know, I would then learn its complimentary style. For example, to strengthen the lack of offense in Soresu, learn Ataru as well, and vice versa.
Edited by Tramp Graphics3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:The worst? No. But not excel at. Ataru sucks at defense. Soresu is not very strong at offense. Each of the five main styles has their weaknesses, but they each excel at what they were designed to accomplish. However, Niman isn't very good at either offense or defense. It's only adequate . And, as AotC shows, "adequate" often isn't .
It seems to me you have in a round about way described excelling at balance.
Excelling at what it’s designed to accomplish also means as far as I can tell for lightsaber styles that it’s horrible at dealing with some common scenarios (and I think the mechanics back this up). So Niman may in your description “only” be adequate generally but that means it is in fact superior in those scenarios where other styles are by design weak and inadequate. AotC would have also meant a bigger blood bath if they’d mainly been Makashi practitioners. And given your description: probably the same for Ataru (this offense would not have overcome endless opponents and they’d be exhausted) and even Soresu would have meant more survived but it could not have brought victory (even Kenobi commented on this).
Also I think the Geonosis fight is a lousy basis to make generalizations. Even if you presume they were mostly Niman practitioners you also have to assume they had in depth training in Niman and many (half?) of them were still apprentices.
11 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:It seems to me you have in a round about way described excelling at balance.
Excelling at what it’s designed to accomplish also means as far as I can tell for lightsaber styles that it’s horrible at dealing with some common scenarios (and I think the mechanics back this up). So Niman may in your description “only” be adequate generally but that means it is in fact superior in those scenarios where other styles are by design weak and inadequate. AotC would have also meant a bigger blood bath if they’d mainly been Makashi practitioners. And given your description: probably the same for Ataru (this offense would not have overcome endless opponents and they’d be exhausted) and even Soresu would have meant more survived but it could not have brought victory (even Kenobi commented on this).
Also I think the Geonosis fight is a lousy basis to make generalizations. Even if you presume they were mostly Niman practitioners you also have to assume they had in depth training in Niman and many (half?) of them were still apprentices.
Not balance, mediocrity . There's a difference. The idea that they had "in depth" training in Niman isn't saying much. Canonically, Niman was very easy to learn, with a very relaxed focus on the lightsaber. It didn't require the intense, dedicated training and practice the other lightsaber forms require. This is why, in game mechanics, it grants a Force Rating and the others don't. The other forms focus strictly on the lightsaber to the exclusion of training in the Force. Niman, with its more relaxed training requirements was designed for those Jedi who focus more on diplomacy or the use of the Force instead of the lightsaber. In other words, for them, its a " backup " if all else fails, to be used as a last resort. Niman users don't typically expect to be fighting with their lightsabers. It's not their strong suit. Niman's overall deficiencies in actual lightsaber training is why it relies so heavily on telekinesis. As such, overall , Niman users are not as good with the blade as those who focus more on lightsaber training, which is required in order to master the other forms. There are exceptions to this, of course, such as Exar Kun from Legends . He was a Niman master who was absolutely devastating with a lightsaber. But this was not because of Niman. Rather, in spite of it. He made up for its deficiencies through simply superior skill and focus with the blade beyond what's necessary for the form.
If they had been Shien masters or Soresu masters, both of which are excellent at defense, and the former is the best for blaster deflection, much more of them would have survived until the clones arrived. Shien practitioners would have had all of the droids' blaster bolts ricocheting back at the droids, and you'd have a junkyard full of them.
The problem with Niman, is that no, it would not be far superior to any of the other forms. And some forms, like Shien don't really have weaknesses. Shien takes the defensive ability of Soresu and adds counteroffensive ability, thus shoring up Soresu's weaknesses on offense. That's why it was designed. It may not be quite as good at defense as Soresu, but it's far better than any other form at defense than Soresu, and adds counteroffensive capability.
2 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:
I find it funny that you basically link the exact same standard definitions that I linked you without understanding my argument at all. So I am going to walk things back a bit and give more examples as to what I am talking about. Niman is the standard of lightsaber training. To me this means that to be considered Adequate on ALL uses of the lightsaber you have to be AT LEAST as good as a niman user in all of these areas. It is the "standard" or the "basic level of competency required" in all scenarios. So let's pick a form and a few scenarios. Let's say Soresu, when testing someone that has trained in JUST soresu that person would pass single dueling test, they would pass defense against multiple opponents with flying colors far beyond the standard, but it would fail hard at assaulting multiple opponents in a timely manner, it may even fail at timely defeat of a single opponent while a Niman user would succeed at all of these scenarios, because niman has "no weakness, but no strength" and as the standard would be considered good enough to pass every scenario. So to pass the other tests the Soresu user would HAVE TO learn other forms or niman to compensate for his weaknesses. Which means at the battle of geonosis the only people trained in only a single lightsaber form were Niman users while everyone else had at least 2 maybe even 3 other forms to draw from, this is part of the reason it is the diplomats form because it is the only one that is required to pass the basic level of competency in all scenarios as well as the only one capable of passing all scenarios without other forms to shore up it's weaknesses because it has no weaknesses. It is even possible and likely that everyone is trained in Niman as it is the only one of the forms that has any basis for training in multiple weapon wielding that is later expanded in Jar'kai which could be another one of the tests required for "basic compentency" or in other words required to be up to the jedi's Standards.
Just another example a makashi user is trying to pass his lightsaber training, passes with flying colors against single opponents but fails hard when he reaches multiple blaster weilders. To compensate he learns Soresu, now passes against multiple basters with flying colors, but fails when he reaches dispatch multiple opponents quickly, trains in ataru now passes at this, but fails at "dispatch blaster opponent from afar" so now trains in Form V Shien to pass this test. Since Form 1 is the basics and taught to everyone he has now mastered the first5 forms. Niman is a MMA (mixed martial arts) that draws upon the first 5 forms, by training in all 5 of them he has basically trained in Niman. Now of course he is way better than niman because he took his training in all of the forms to a much higher degree and stress then a typical niman user. It did not require the intense and dedicated training BECAUSE it was good enough in every area to pass every scenario while ALL of the other forms required the user to over come their glaring weakness to survive and meet the standards of practice that was Niman. Niman is the bar for all scenarios... you must be at least this good to pass.
2 minutes ago, tunewalker said:I find it funny that you basically link the exact same standard definitions that I linked you without understanding my argument at all. So I am going to walk things back a bit and give more examples as to what I am talking about. Niman is the standard of lightsaber training. To me this means that to be considered Adequate on ALL uses of the lightsaber you have to be AT LEAST as good as a niman user in all of these areas. It is the "standard" or the "basic level of competency required" in all scenarios. So let's pick a form and a few scenarios. Let's say Soresu, when testing someone that has trained in JUST soresu that person would pass single dueling test, they would pass defense against multiple opponents with flying colors far beyond the standard, but it would fail hard at assaulting multiple opponents in a timely manner, it may even fail at timely defeat of a single opponent while a Niman user would succeed at all of these scenarios, because niman has "no weakness, but no strength" and as the standard would be considered good enough to pass every scenario. So to pass the other tests the Soresu user would HAVE TO learn other forms or niman to compensate for his weaknesses. Which means at the battle of geonosis the only people trained in only a single lightsaber form were Niman users while everyone else had at least 2 maybe even 3 other forms to draw from, this is part of the reason it is the diplomats form because it is the only one that is required to pass the basic level of competency in all scenarios as well as the only one capable of passing all scenarios without other forms to shore up it's weaknesses because it has no weaknesses. It is even possible and likely that everyone is trained in Niman as it is the only one of the forms that has any basis for training in multiple weapon wielding that is later expanded in Jar'kai which could be another one of the tests required for "basic compentency" or in other words required to be up to the jedi's Standards.
Just another example a makashi user is trying to pass his lightsaber training, passes with flying colors against single opponents but fails hard when he reaches multiple blaster weilders. To compensate he learns Soresu, now passes against multiple basters with flying colors, but fails when he reaches dispatch multiple opponents quickly, trains in ataru now passes at this, but fails at "dispatch blaster opponent from afar" so now trains in Form V Shien to pass this test. Since Form 1 is the basics and taught to everyone he has now mastered the first5 forms. Niman is a MMA (mixed martial arts) that draws upon the first 5 forms, by training in all 5 of them he has basically trained in Niman. Now of course he is way better than niman because he took his training in all of the forms to a much higher degree and stress then a typical niman user. It did not require the intense and dedicated training BECAUSE it was good enough in every area to pass every scenario while ALL of the other forms required the user to over come their glaring weakness to survive and meet the standards of practice that was Niman. Niman is the bar for all scenarios... you must be at least this good to pass.
But that’s not what the article states, nor what the original sources that the article is based on say. Niman wasn’t “the” standard upon which a Jedi’s trying in the lightsaber was based upon. It was simply standard (average and normal) for many of them to learn because of how easy it was to learn. That’s a huge difference. Jedi who focus on the lightsaber tend to gravitate towards mastery of the other five forms instead, not in addition to Niman.
They all learned at least the fundamentals of Shii-Cho, but then each Jedi went on to focus on their preferred lightsaber form. They didn’t learn Noam after Shii-Cho then their preferred form. They went directly from Shii-Cho to whatever form they chose to master. And each form has its own minimum requirements for proficiency or mastery. It wasn’t based upon a student’s proficiency in Niman.
25 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:Not balance, mediocrity . There's a difference. The idea that they had "in depth" training in Niman isn't saying much. Canonically, Niman was very easy to learn, with a very relaxed focus on the lightsaber. It didn't require the intense, dedicated training and practice the other lightsaber forms require. This is why, in game mechanics, it grants a Force Rating and the others don't. The other forms focus strictly on the lightsaber to the exclusion of training in the Force. Niman, with its more relaxed training requirements was designed for those Jedi who focus more on diplomacy or the use of the Force instead of the lightsaber. In other words, for them, its a " backup " if all else fails, to be used as a last resort. Niman users don't typically expect to be fighting with their lightsabers. It's not their strong suit. Niman's overall deficiencies in actual lightsaber training is why it relies so heavily on telekinesis. As such, overall , Niman users are not as good with the blade as those who focus more on lightsaber training, which is required in order to master the other forms. There are exceptions to this, of course, such as Exar Kun from Legends . He was a Niman master who was absolutely devastating with a lightsaber. But this was not because of Niman. Rather, in spite of it. He made up for its deficiencies through simply superior skill and focus with the blade beyond what's necessary for the form.
If they had been Shien masters or Soresu masters, both of which are excellent at defense, and the former is the best for blaster deflection, much more of them would have survived until the clones arrived. Shien practitioners would have had all of the droids' blaster bolts ricocheting back at the droids, and you'd have a junkyard full of them.
The problem with Niman, is that no, it would not be far superior to any of the other forms. And some forms, like Shien don't really have weaknesses. Shien takes the defensive ability of Soresu and adds counteroffensive ability, thus shoring up Soresu's weaknesses on offense. That's why it was designed. It may not be quite as good at defense as Soresu, but it's far better than any other form at defense than Soresu, and adds counteroffensive capability.
So you agree then that Niman is better depending on the circumstances than other styles.
You’ve also ignored the mechanical aspects. Niman mechanically is not mediocre. I think Elias has shown that (and your response to him as well).
It’s defense is on par with the best. Gets a decent boost to lightsaber work (chance to hit and damage) with Draw Closer.
And it’s telekinesis fallback is not mechanically as you describe it in lore (weak and maybe barely adequate) in this system at least. Those options can be very potent as the fallback is using a powerful force power.
Anyway at this point with all this back and forth I’m sure the OP and anyone else can make their own conclusions about Niman.
1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:No. It won't excel. It may be, at best, " adequate ". But it will never excel at anything. As I said, it's mediocre at best. That's why everyone who used that style in AotC died . So, it is not superior at anything. Every other form is superior to Niman in its given focus . Niman lacks any focus at all. Shii-Choo excels at mass melees, Makashi excels at one on one dueling, Soresu excels at defense, Ataru excels at offense, Shien excels at blaster deflection and counterattacks. Niman is, at best, adequate at each of these, but excels at none of them. As such, relies on Telekinesis to try to make up for its overall deficiencies in all of these areas.
I consider Soresu to be one of the best, if not the best, lightsaber forms because of its excellent defense. With strong defense, you can outlast a n equally strong offense, either forcing your foe to retreat, or tire out so you can deliver the final blow. With Ataru, while it's the best offense you can get, you burn through energy very quickly, so it behooves you to defeat your opponent as quickly as possible. Put a Soresu master against an Ataru master, and, likely the Soresu master will win, because the Ataru Master won't have the endurance. As we used to say in the Army, it takes a battalion of attackers to break through a company of well dug in defenders. In other words, it takes ten times the number of attackers as there are Defenders to successfully breech a defense in a straight up fight.
Parry takes strain to use.
In game i've seen ataru strikers drop total baddass duelists with massive ranks in parry because the defender ran out of strain while the ataru striker had one or two left. The aturu striker can use the advantages from hawkbat swoop to recover strain.
But where's your soresu build Mike? Either man up or shut up. Because I'm fairly confident that in this game niman-disciple will take down soresu defender in a duel more often than not without using any of its telekinetic talents.
Quote
For superior balance, use the Niman form. This form has no specific strengths, but no weaknesses either. KAVARForm VI , also known as Niman , the Way of the Rancor , the Moderation Form , and the diplomat's form , was the sixth form of the seven forms of lightsaber combat . This fighting style was a hybrid martial art created by effectively combining elements of the preceding lightsaber forms into a single, generalized form. Niman balanced out between the various specializations of the other forms, covering many of the basic moves, but focusing on overall moderation. This resulted in a fighting style that lacked a significant advantage, but also lacking any serious drawbacks, and thereby not leaving adherents as exposed as some of the more aggressive or specialized forms. Overall, Niman had a fairly relaxed focus on bladework, designed as a simple, easily mastered fighting form for Jedi who preferred to devote most of their time to study and diplomacy. Despite this, it could be absolutely deadly in the hands of a skilled practitioner, as demonstrated by such notables as Exar Kun .
niman gets you a lot for a little investment, and most diplomats don't go beyond that, but those who actually devote themselves to niman can be absolutely deadly
Edited by EliasWindrider11 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:
This backs up what I was saying and repeats what tunewalker said (Niman has no weaknesses; I like that phrasing). It’s strength is that it can be more generally applicable depending on the situations you are encountering because it lacks a distinct weakness. I think this is also it’s appeal in the game: it makes for a better Jedi character on all sorts of levels.
Edited by Jedi Ronin52 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:But that’s not what the article states, nor what the original sources that the article is based on say. Niman wasn’t “the” standard upon which a Jedi’s trying in the lightsaber was based upon. It was simply standard (average and normal) for many of them to learn because of how easy it was to learn. That’s a huge diffe rence. Jedi who focus on the lightsaber tend to gravitate towards mastery of the other five forms instead, not in addition to Niman.
They all learned at least the fundamentals of Shii-Cho, but then each Jedi went on to focus on t heir preferred lightsaber form. Th ey didn’t learn Noam after Shii-Cho then their preferred form. They went directly from Shii-Cho to whatever form they chose to master. And each form has its own minimum requirements for proficiency or mastery. It wasn’t based upon a student’s proficiency in Niman.
"Over time, it became
the standard in lightsaber training
, and by the start of the Clone Wars, was one of the most common forms in the Jedi Order.[17]"
Actually the article DOES say that it was the standard upon which jedi trying to pass lightsaber combat was based on right there. Not in it's early foundations but later on it was. Sure not everyone trained in Niman but everyone had to be up to Niman's standard in every scenario as it was THE standard in lightsaber training, other forms have weaknesses it does not.
"This resulted in a fighting style that lacked a significant advantage,
but also lacking any serious drawbacks, and thereby not leaving adherents as exposed as some of the more aggressive or specialized forms."
It was the standard because it was considered to have no weaknesses to overcome regardless of scenario, while ALL of the other forms had a weakness that they MUST overcome to be considered up to THE standard of Niman. This means other forms HAD to work harder to get to Niman's standard in their weaknesses and thus anyone NOT using Niman would largely be better than Niman users because they both had something they were great in AND by requirements of the standards set by Niman they were required to shore up the other forms weaknesses and be up to par with niman users in that area. So a Makashi duelist during the clone wars was better at single combat than a Niman user AND they were still required to be just as good as the niman user in ALL other areas such as blast deflection which normally Makashi not only fails at but has literally no regiment what so ever for handling. So everyone NOT using Niman were either trained in multiple forms or were required to shore up the forms weakness to be considered up to snuff.
Edit: quote directly from Star Wars Jedi vs Sith the essential guide to the force page 132
"Form VI, also called Niman,
is the current standard in lightsaber training
." later in the question section Cin drallig states that while the form is not the most worthy of study it IS the most PRACTICAL for study. Which considering the recommendation for Niman was for giving a player a quick path to feeling "jedi like" and proficient in lightsaber is not a surprise at all.
Niman disciple + knight is pretty potent. And will wreck almost any other two spec combo (excepting ataru striker plus sage/seeker/hermit)
The Niman sidebar in F&D core backs up much of what Tramp says. It’s a form for those who want to focus on things other than combat it also says (departing from Tramp) that “it’s nonetheless extremely effective due to it’s integration with other Force techniques” (yes Tramp has mentioned it used telekinesis to compensate but that this made it inferior).
Interestingly the Niman section in Knights of Fate goes over all the stuff we’re talking about (and a bit more) including mentioning those Jedi who more or less take Tramp’s view.
10 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:So you agree then that Niman is better depending on the circumstances than other styles.
You’ve also ignored the mechanical aspects. Niman mechanically is not mediocre. I think Elias has shown that (and your response to him as well).
It’s defense is on par with the best. Gets a decent boost to lightsaber work (chance to hit and damage) with Draw Closer.
And it’s telekinesis fallback is not mechanically as you describe it in lore (weak and maybe barely adequate) in this system at least. Those options can be very potent as the fallback is using a powerful force power.
Anyway at this point with all this back and forth I’m sure the OP and anyone else can make their own conclusions about Niman.
Defensively, Niman is adequate, but with only three ranks each in Parry and Reflect, and no Improved or Supreme versions of those two, I wouldn’t call it “on par”. Makashi has the most ranks in Parry with five ranks, though it lacks both Improved Parry and Supreme Parry, and Soresu has the second most ranks in Parry with four. Soresu also has both Improved Parry and Supreme Parry, making it the best overall for parrying. While Soresu also only has three ranks in Reflect, it also has Improved Reflect. Shien as well has three ranks in Reflect, but also has both Improved Reflect and Supreme Reflect, thus it is the absolute best at Reflect. Niman doesn’t come close.
4 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:Parry takes strain to use.
In game i've seen ataru strikers drop total baddass duelists with massive ranks in parry because the defender ran out of strain while the ataru striker had one or two left. The aturu striker can use the advantages from hawkbat swoop to recover strain.
But where's your soresu build Mike? Either man up or shut up. Because I'm fairly confident that in this game niman-disciple will take down soresu defender in a duel more often than not without using any of its telekinetic talents.
Ataru has one talent that helps with Strain recovery, but it only helps at the end of the encounter , not during the fight itself. As such, it doesn’t help him better survive the fight as it occurs. By contrast, with Supreme Parry, a Soresu Defender won’t lose much Strain to begin with, and it includes multiple ranks in Grit, which Ataru completely lacks any ranks in, and thus will likely have a higher Strain Threshold than the Ataru Striker. As such, he can afford to take more Strain than an Ataru Striker with the same Willpower. Add to that Soresu has more ranks in Parry than Ataru, the Soresu Defender is far more likely to outlast the Ataru Striker all else being equal.
16 minutes ago, tunewalker said:"Over time, it became the standard in lightsaber training , and by the start of the Clone Wars, was one of the most common forms in the Jedi Order.[17]"
Actually the article DOES say that it was the standard upon which jedi trying to pass lightsaber combat was based on right there. Not in it's early foundations but later on it was. Sure not everyone trained in Niman but everyone had to be up to Niman's standard in every scenario as it was THE standard in lightsaber training, other forms have weaknesses it does not.
"This resulted in a fighting style that lacked a significant advantage, but also lacking any serious drawbacks, and thereby not leaving adherents as exposed as some of the more aggressive or specialized forms."
It was the standard because it was considered to have no weaknesses to overcome regardless of scenario, while ALL of the other forms had a weakness that they MUST overcome to be considered up to THE standard of Niman. This means other forms HAD to work harder to get to Niman's standard in their weaknesses and thus anyone NOT using Niman would largely be better than Niman users because they both had something they were great in AND by requirements of the standards set by Niman they were required to shore up the other forms weaknesses and be up to par with niman users in that area. So a Makashi duelist during the clone wars was better at single combat than a Niman user AND they were still required to be just as good as the niman user in ALL other areas. So everyone NOT using Niman were either trained in multiple forms or were required to shore up the forms weakness to be considered up to snuff.
Wrong. You’re using the wrong definition for “standard”, and thus misinterpreting what the article says. And, as I also said, your interpretation is not backed up by the original source material from which that article is based. The original source materials, including Jedi Path, explicitly state that all Jedi studied Shii-Cho as younglings but then each went on to study any one of the other five forms based upon their preferences or natural inclinations. Niman was never required learning. Only Shii-Cho was required of all Jedi younglings. And that was because Shii-Cho was the foundation upon which all other lightsaber forms were built. They had to know it in order to even be capable of learning any of the others. Niman is not required in order to learn Soresu. It is not required in order to learn Ataru. It is not required in order to learn Shien. It is not required in order to learn Makashi. A Jedi didn’t need to know it in order to even grasp the other forms. So, no, it was not “the” standard which every Jedi had to know. It was simply standard (normal) for many Jedi to learn it because of its ease.
17 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:Niman disciple + knight is pretty potent. And will wreck almost any other two spec combo (excepting ataru striker plus sage/seeker/hermit)
I agree Ataru is probably the strongest overall and best at damage output but Makashi has a decent chance to best it in a duel. Makashi is likely to go first with a decent chance to disarm (and take possession as a Maneuver). Barring that Ataru is likely to survive the first hit but Makashi will not likely survive the counter saber swarm. This is dependent on circumstances though (not accounted for in most duels).
19 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:The Niman sidebar in F&D core backs up much of what Tramp says. It’s a form for those who want to focus on things other than combat it also says (departing from Tramp) that “it’s nonetheless extremely effective due to it’s integration with other Force techniques” (yes Tramp has mentioned it used telekinesis to compensate but that this made it inferior).
The key phrase there is, “ due to it’s integration with other Force techniques. ” Without that it loses a significant amount of its effectiveness, which is why I said it was a “crutch” upon which Niman users relied upon. The other lightsaber forms don’t rely on Force techniques to be extremely effective.
Edited by Tramp Graphics4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:Defensively, Niman is adequate, but with only three ranks each in Parry and Reflect, and no Improved or Supreme versions of those two, I wouldn’t call it “on par”. Makashi has the most ranks in Parry with five ranks, though it lacks both Improved Parry and Supreme Parry, and Soresu has the second most ranks in Parry with four. Soresu also has both Improved Parry and Supreme Parry, making it the best overall for parrying. While Soresu also only has three ranks in Reflect, it also has Improved Reflect. Shien as well has three ranks in Reflect, but also has both Improved Reflect and Supreme Reflect, thus it is the absolute best at Reflect. Niman doesn’t come close.
Ataru has one talent that helps with Strain recovery, but it only helps at the end of the encounter , not during the fight itself. As such, it doesn’t help him better survive the fight as it occurs. By contrast, with Supreme Parry, a Soresu Defender won’t lose much Strain to begin with, and it includes multiple ranks in Grit, which Ataru completely lacks any ranks in, and thus will likely have a higher Strain Threshold than the Ataru Striker. As such, he can afford to take more Strain than an Ataru Striker with the same Willpower. Add to that Soresu has more ranks in Parry than Ataru, the Soresu Defender is far more likely to outlast the Ataru Striker all else being equal.
Wrong. You’re using the wrong definition for “standard”, and thus misinterpreting what the article says. And, as I also said, your interpretation is not backed up by the original source material from which that article is based. The original source materials, including Jedi Path, explicitly state that all Jedi studied Shii-Cho as younglings but then each went on to study any one of the other five forms based upon their preferences or natural inclinations. Niman was never required learning. Only Shii-Cho was required of all Jedi younglings. And that was because Shii-Cho was the foundation upon which all other lightsaber forms were built. They had to know it in order to even be capable of learning any of the others. Niman is not required in order to learn Soresu. It is not required in order to learn Ataru. It is not required in order to learn Shien. It is not required in order to learn Makashi. A Jedi didn’t need to know it in order to even grasp the other forms. So, no, it was not “the” standard which every Jedi had to know. It was simply standard (normal) for many Jedi to learn it because of its ease.
I think this is contradicted in Knights of Fate. It’s describing Niman as a standard and not really in the way you mean it.
So you agree again then that Niman is better depending on the circumstances.
5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:The key phrase there is, “ due to it’s integration with other Force techniques. ” Without that it loses a significant amount of its effectiveness, which is why I said it was a “crutch” upon which Niman users relied upon. The other lightsaber forms don’t rely on Force techniques to be extremely effective.
I didn’t miss that but you haven’t explained how it’s a crutch. According to the text it results in a “extremely effective” style. Yes it’s part of the style. On purpose. Because it works well. How do you define crutch? And with that “crutch” it’s extremely effective which is the whole point of a style- bringing all your tools to bear.
2 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:I think this is contradicted in Knights of Fate. It’s describing Niman as a standard and not really in the way you mean it.
So you agree again then that Niman is better depending on the circumstances.
Based upon the original source material, it is exactly as I mean it. Niman was extremely common, and thus what the average Jedi might take as a form, but it wasn’t the minimum required learning for all Jedi. It wasn’t a form all Jedi absolutely had to learn in order to progress to other forms like Shii-Cho is. It was simply extremely common among Jedi because it was easy to learn, which allowed them to focus more on other studies.