I think a note should be made about Niman in Canon is that during the prequel era (as far as I know) it was the basics of lightsaber forms. While Shii-cho was the first form invented and the most "basic form" Niman during the prequel era was what every jedi was trained in first because it gave the basics of every other form. So technically it was considered a good enough form by yoda and the council to be every younglings first form. This also means that it is likely that every jedi that died at geonosis and just used niman died not because of niman but because they did not continue their lightsaber training beyond the basics. Also niman is the basis behind multi-weapon fighting and the use of force powers with the blade is actually part of the niman training regiment, remember that technically jedi martial arts are just that. Ultimately Niman is considered a perfectly valid and passable lightsaber form against 90% of what a Jedi would face, but it just so happens that those that took their training beyond niman and into other forms were more suited to survive geonosis while those that did not train beyond their initial niman training didn't. No surprise there really, those that have multiple lightsaber trees do better in combat then those that do not.

11 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

How is using the force to hurl stuff any different than using the force to leap to and beat senseless a guy with your lightsaber? but are using your characters talents.

The difference is that in the cases I mentioned the Force is only enhancing the Jedi’s natural abilities. He’s not using it on his foe directly or in lieu of his lightsaber. That’s a very important distinction. Niman uses the Force directly on an opponent, either to pull him to the Jedi or to hurl something at him with Move in lieu of a lightsaber attack (more accurately to cover for a failed lightsaber attack). That’s the difference.

5 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Tramp you continually avoid my main point and nit-pick side issues. My main point still stands: using the Force is part of a fighting style - a lightsaber fighting style. You have yet to really get to why this is important or of any significance. We may disagree a lot about interpreting these things but we basically agree that using the Force is part of the Niman style. Why is that something you are hung up on? Why does they really matter? You seem to be driving at that it’s not really a lightsaber style.

Yes, and that’s the problem with it and what makes it weaker as a lightsaber style. It relies too much on the Force instead of the lightsaber. All of the other lightsaber forms rely on the use of the lightsaber alone. Any use of the Force is solely to improve the Jedi’s natural ability in the use of that weapon directly. It does not replace the use of the weapon with other Force powers.

3 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

I think a note should be made about Niman in Canon is that during the prequel era (as far as I know) it was the basics of lightsaber forms. While Shii-cho was the first form invented and the most "basic form" Niman during the prequel era was what every jedi was trained in first because it gave the basics of every other form. So technically it was considered a good enough form by yoda and the council to be every younglings first form. This also means that it is likely that every jedi that died at geonosis and just used niman died not because of niman but because they did not continue their lightsaber training beyond the basics. Also niman is the basis behind multi-weapon fighting and the use of force powers with the blade is actually part of the niman training regiment, remember that technically jedi martial arts are just that. Ultimately Niman is considered a perfectly valid and passable lightsaber form against 90% of what a Jedi would face, but it just so happens that those that took their training beyond niman and into other forms were more suited to survive geonosis while those that did not train beyond their initial niman training didn't. No surprise there really, those that have multiple lightsaber trees do better in combat then those that do not.

That wouldn’t be true though. Canonically, Younglings are trained in Shii-Cho first, given that it is the very foundation of all the other lightsaber forms. It wasn’t simply the first one invented. All of the other forms require proficiency in Shii-Cho first since that form gives the user the basic moves upon which the other forms build upon. In other words, anyone with ranks in the Lightsaber skill has training in Shii-Cho, though not necessarily complete mastery of its higher intricacies (which is what the Form spec represents).

55 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The difference is that in the cases I mentioned the Force is only enhancing the Jedi’s natural abilities. He’s not using it on his foe directly or in lieu of his lightsaber. That’s a very important distinction. Niman uses the Force directly on an opponent, either to pull him to the Jedi or to hurl something at him with Move in lieu of a lightsaber attack (more accurately to cover for a failed lightsaber attack). That’s the difference.

Yes, and that’s the problem with it and what makes it weaker as a lightsaber style. It relies too much on the Force instead of the lightsaber. All of the other lightsaber forms rely on the use of the lightsaber alone. Any use of the Force is solely to improve the Jedi’s natural ability in the use of that weapon directly. It does not replace the use of the weapon with other Force powers.

That wouldn’t be true though. Canonically, Younglings are trained in Shii-Cho first, given that it is the very foundation of all the other lightsaber forms. It wasn’t simply the first one invented. All of the other forms require proficiency in Shii-Cho first since that form gives the user the basic moves upon which the other forms build upon. In other words, anyone with ranks in the Lightsaber skill has training in Shii-Cho, though not necessarily complete mastery of its higher intricacies (which is what the Form spec represents).

You are just repeating yourself. Why does that matter? How is it actually weaker? You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a style is.

So maybe this can move this somewhere: can one practice Niman without using a lightsaber? Need Lightsaber be a spec skill? Is it still Niman without all the Talents that require a lightsaber to use?

1 hour ago, Daeglan said:

you did your math wrong. 4 ranks of parry reduces 6 damage. so not a minimum of 3 damage.

I typed that fast was in a hurry 18 strain and at least 6 damage.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That wouldn’t be true though. Canonically, Younglings are trained in Shii-Cho first, given that it is the very foundation of all the other lightsaber forms. It wasn’t simply the first one invented. All of the other forms require proficiency in Shii-Cho first since that form gives the user the basic moves upon which the other forms build upon. In other words, anyone with ranks in the Lightsaber skill has training in Shii-Cho, though not necessarily complete mastery of its higher intricacies (which is what the Form spec represents). 

Yes but after shii-cho during the prequel era the next thing taught was Niman because they did not expect a bunch of teenagers who had never even sampled the other forms to know which one they wanted to continue their training

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Form_VI/Legends

Over time, it became the standard in lightsaber training, and by the start of the Clone Wars, was one of the most common forms in the Jedi Order.[17]

after Shii-cho Niman is the standard. Shii-cho is taught to teach the basic movements, Niman is taught to teach the 'forms' and is the go to first fully trained lightsaber form for the jedi during the clone wars according to the wookie.

1 hour ago, Jedi Ronin said:

You are just repeating yourself. Why does that matter? How is it actually weaker? You seem to have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a style is.

So maybe this can move this somewhere: can one practice Niman without using a lightsaber? Need Lightsaber be a spec skill? Is it still Niman without all the Talents that require a lightsaber to use?

It matters because of its extensive use of the Force instead of the lightsaber. If someone is making a claim to be a superior swordsman, I expect his actual skill with the sword to be what makes him a successful combatant, not other tricks or “magic” in lieu of his skill with a blade. If he has to rely on magic or other means to defeat his opponent, that tells me that he’s not that good of an actual swordsman . This is backed up in canon. Niman was designed the way it was for those Jedi who did not focus on swordsmanship. Thus Niman users were not actually that skilled with the lightsaber itself, but instead relied on the use of Force powers to cover for their deficiencies in skill with the blade. That is why it is important. To quote the article @tunewalker linked to:

Quote

Form VI , also known as Niman , the Way of the Rancor , the Moderation Form , and the diplomat's form , was the sixth form of the seven forms of lightsaber combat . This fighting style was a hybrid martial art created by effectively combining elements of the preceding lightsaber forms into a single, generalized form. Niman balanced out between the various specializations of the other forms, covering many of the basic moves, but focusing on overall moderation. This resulted in a fighting style that lacked a significant advantage, but also lacking any serious drawbacks, and thereby not leaving adherents as exposed as some of the more aggressive or specialized forms. Overall, Niman had a fairly relaxed focus on bladework, designed as a simple, easily mastered fighting form for Jedi who preferred to devote most of their time to study and diplomacy. Despite this, it could be absolutely deadly in the hands of a skilled practitioner, as demonstrated by such notables as Exar Kun .

To compensate for the relaxed focus on bladework and lack of significant specialization, Niman training regimens encouraged the inclusion of Force -based attacks in combat, such as telekinetic pulls and shoves used in sync with lightsaber strikes.

During the various wars against the Sith , Niman was prized by some for its general versatility on the battlefield, though heavily criticized by others for being insufficiently demanding. [12] Over time, it became the standard in lightsaber training, and by the start of the Clone Wars , was one of the most common forms in the Jedi Order. [17] However, Niman demonstrated itself to be inadequate for the open battlefields of the Clone Wars, proven when all the Form VI adherents involved in the First Battle of Geonosis died in combat. [3]

Niman did not focus on blade work, and as such relies heavily on telekinetic tricks to compensate . That tells me that it’s a weak form overall. It’s bland, unfocused , and overly generic . It is inadequate for the battlefield where a more focused and dedicated swordsman would prevail by his skill with the blade alone.

28 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

Yes but after shii-cho during the prequel era the next thing taught was Niman because they did not expect a bunch of teenagers who had never even sampled the other forms to know which one they wanted to continue their training

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Form_VI/Legends

Over time, it became the standard in lightsaber training, and by the start of the Clone Wars, was one of the most common forms in the Jedi Order.[17]

after Shii-cho Niman is the standard. Shii-cho is taught to teach the basic movements, Niman is taught to teach the 'forms' and is the go to first fully trained lightsaber form for the jedi during the clone wars according to the wookie.

Not entirely true. Niman was only more common among Jedi who focused more on diplomacy and use of the Force. Just because it was common does not inherently make it the second most common lightsaber form; not does that article state that Niman was the “second most” common form. It simply states that it was one of the most common forms. That’s not the same thing as claiming it’s the second most common form.

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It matters because of its extensive use of the Force instead of the lightsaber. If someone is making a claim to be a superior swordsman, I expect his actual skill with the sword to be what makes him a successful combatant, not other tricks or “magic” in lieu of his skill with a blade. If he has to rely on magic or other means to defeat his opponent, that tells me that he’s not that good of an actual swordsman . This is backed up in canon. Niman was designed the way it was for those Jedi who did not focus on swordsmanship. Thus Niman users were not actually that skilled with the lightsaber itself, but instead relied on the use of Force powers to cover for their deficiencies in skill with the blade. That is why it is important. To quote the article @tunewalker linked to:

Niman did not focus on blade work, and as such relies heavily on telekinetic tricks to compensate . That tells me that it’s a weak form overall. It’s bland, unfocused , and overly generic . It is inadequate for the battlefield where a more focused and dedicated swordsman would prevail by his skill with the blade alone.

Not entirely true. Niman was only more common among Jedi who focused more on diplomacy and use of the Force. Just because it was common does not inherently make it the second most common lightsaber form; not does that article state that Niman was the “second most” common form. It simply states that it was one of the most common forms. That’s not the same thing as claiming it’s the second most common form.

It also claims that it was the "Standard" in lightsaber training. As in, all lightsaber training was based on training in Niman. which is what my claim is saying. As in the reason it was the "diplomats form" is because it was the form that was taught for a practitioner to have "basic competency in lightsaber combat" and diplomat jedi only ever got basic competency and never pushed that competency beyond the most basic they could get. While everyone else NOT pure diplomats in the jedi order would naturally push beyond "basic competency" and would thus have more then just Niman. In other words Niman was considered the diplomats form because it was the one that needed the least amount of practice to have proficiency in 90% of scenarios which is a good selling point for the form. the fact that most of the practictioners died during geonosis says more about how those practitioners were using Niman then it says about the form itself, the form was also used as the gateway into multi-lightsaber combat and saber staff combat which all of the temple guard used as well as it being used by Maul (yes maul also trained Form VII, but the staff usage training starts with Niman).

Edit: notable practitioners include Cin Draligg (jedi battlemaster during Clone wars, not at geonosis) Exar Kun (considered one of the greatest saber duelists of all time and one of the most powerful sith of all time), Darth Revan, and highly suggested Kao Cen Darach, all people who were considered some of the best lightsaber duelists of their time all Niman.

Just now, tunewalker said:

It also claims that it was the "Standard" in lightsaber training. As in, all lightsaber training was based on training in Niman. which is what my claim is saying. As in the reason it was the "diplomats form" is because it was the form that was taught for a practitioner to have "basic competency in lightsaber combat" and diplomat jedi only ever got basic competency and never pushed that competency beyond the most basic they could get. While everyone else NOT pure diplomats in the jedi order would naturally push beyond "basic competency" and would thus have more then just Niman.

Not quite. What it means is that a lot of Jedi trained in it. It was not the foundation of the other forms. Just the opposite in fact. It drew from the other five forms. They don’t draw from it. What made Niman popular was that it was easy to learn because it wasn’t focused on intricate blade work. Thus a lot of Jedi who weren’t really interested in swordsmanship trained in it so that they could focus on other fields of interest . By contrast, those Jedi who dedicated themselves to the lightsaber always trained in one or more of the other five lightsaber forms instead . Niman was for the “diplomats” and the “Force wizards”, not the dedicated swordsmen. And there were just as many of those as the diplomats.

1 minute ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Not quite. What it means is that a lot of Jedi trained in it. It was not the foundation of the other forms. Just the opposite in fact. It drew from the other five forms. They don’t draw from it. What made Niman popular was that it was easy to learn because it wasn’t focused on intricate blade work. Thus a lot of Jedi who weren’t really interested in swordsmanship trained in it so that they could focus on other fields of interest . By contrast, those Jedi who dedicated themselves to the lightsaber always trained in one or more of the other five lightsaber forms instead . Niman was for the “diplomats” and the “Force wizards”, not the dedicated swordsmen. And there were just as many of those as the diplomats.

you are not listening, yes it drew from the others IN IT'S CREATION, but a forms creation is NOT the means by which it is taught to all future generations. The article literally states "OVER TIME, It BECAME the STANDARD in lightsaber training" meaning that while it's creation was based on the other 5 forms later on they taught the basics of the other 5 forms by first teaching niman as it inherently HAD parts of each of those forms. By learning Form VI a person could then learn which of the other 5 forms they leaned towards and thus start training in that form. It was the diplomat form both because the less intricacies of the blade work AND because simple competency with the form was all that was needed for a vast majority of problems a jedi would face and thus having competency with it was considered "basic lightsaber competency level" for those that follow harry potter, Niman was the "ordinary wizarding levels" of lightsaber combat during the clone wars while anything beyond it was considered the Nastily Exhausting Wizarding Test of lightsaber combat. One is basic competency while the other is true mastery.

27 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It matters because of its extensive use of the Force instead of the lightsaber. If someone is making a claim to be a superior swordsman, I expect his actual skill with the sword to be what makes him a successful combatant, not other tricks or “magic” in lieu of his skill with a blade. If he has to rely on magic or other means to defeat his opponent, that tells me that he’s not that good of an actual swordsman . This is backed up in canon. Niman was designed the way it was for those Jedi who did not focus on swordsmanship. Thus Niman users were not actually that skilled with the lightsaber itself, but instead relied on the use of Force powers to cover for their deficiencies in skill with the blade. That is why it is important. To quote the article @tunewalker linked to:

Niman did not focus on blade work, and as such relies heavily on telekinetic tricks to compensate . That tells me that it’s a weak form overall. It’s bland, unfocused , and overly generic . It is inadequate for the battlefield where a more focused and dedicated swordsman would prevail by his skill with the blade alone.

Not entirely true. Niman was only more common among Jedi who focused more on diplomacy and use of the Force. Just because it was common does not inherently make it the second most common lightsaber form; not does that article state that Niman was the “second most” common form. It simply states that it was one of the most common forms. That’s not the same thing as claiming it’s the second most common form.

Ok. So you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a style is. Narratively and mechanically and practically.

What it’s supposed to do and be and it’s purpose. Real styles and these fictional ones too are not bound by strictly sticking to techniques like you think.

Niman does focus on bladework. Focus doesn’t mean exclusive. And that’s demonstrated mechanically in this system and why you didn’t directly answer my questions. Because if you take blade work out of Niman you don’t really have anything left. Certainly not a functioning style or Specialization.

And Elias’ challenge gets at the heart of it. He’s discarded all the “non-blade” enhancements, even though they require a Lightsaber check. And still you complain. It’s really obvious you think it’s a superior style (but does not qualify as a blade style for some reason).

13 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

you are not listening, yes it drew from the others IN IT'S CREATION, but a forms creation is NOT the means by which it is taught to all future generations. The article literally states "OVER TIME, It BECAME the STANDARD in lightsaber training" meaning that while it's creation was based on the other 5 forms later on they taught the basics of the other 5 forms by first teaching niman as it inherently HAD parts of each of those forms. By learning Form VI a person could then learn which of the other 5 forms they leaned towards and thus start training in that form. It was the diplomat form both because the less intricacies of the blade work AND because simple competency with the form was all that was needed for a vast majority of problems a jedi would face and thus having competency with it was considered "basic lightsaber competency level" for those that follow harry potter, Niman was the "ordinary wizarding levels" of lightsaber combat during the clone wars while anything beyond it was considered the Nastily Exhausting Wizarding Test of lightsaber combat. One is basic competency while the other is true mastery.

But that’s not what was taught, nor how the forms were taught. Remember what “standard” means. It means average, normal, or common. A lot of Jedi didn’t focus on the lightsaber, as such Niman was a very common form, thus “standard” for a lot of Jedi, and something that could be expected for many Jedi to train in. That’s not the same thing as saying those who trained in the other forms trained in Niman first, or even second. This is not the case. Jedi would instead train in the fundamentals of Shii-Cho then move directly into whatever form they were best suited to or what their master chose to th each. Obi Wan learned Ataru because that is what Qui Gon taught him. He switched to Soresu upon becoming a Knight after witnessing Qui Gon get killed due to Ataru’s lack of defense and how easily the form tires the duelist. He didn’t study Niman at all canonically. He went from Shii-Cho to Ataru to Soresu, in that order, and became the master of Soresu.

13 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Ok. So you have a fundamental misunderstanding of what a style is. Narratively and mechanically and practically.

What it’s supposed to do and be and it’s purpose. Real styles and these fictional ones too are not bound by strictly sticking to techniques like you think.

Niman does focus on bladework. Focus doesn’t mean exclusive. And that’s demonstrated mechanically in this system and why you didn’t directly answer my questions. Because if you take blade work out of Niman you don’t really have anything left. Certainly not a functioning style or Specialization.

And Elias’ challenge gets at the heart of it. He’s discarded all the “non-blade” enhancements, even though they require a Lightsaber check. And still you complain. It’s really obvious you think it’s a superior style (but does not qualify as a blade style for some reason).

No. I find it a deficient lightsaber form in terms of actual lightsaber use; that relies too heavily on telekinetic tricks; a form that got all of the practitioners at the first Battle of Geonosis killed.

7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

But that’s not what was taught, nor how the forms were taught. Remember what “standard” means. It means average, normal, or common. A lot of Jedi didn’t focus on the lightsaber, as such Niman was a very common form, thus “standard” for a lot of Jedi, and something that could be expected for many Jedi to train in. That’s not the same thing as saying those who trained in the other forms trained in Niman first, or even second. This is not the case. Jedi would instead train in the fundamentals of Shi  i-Cho then move directly into whatever form they were best suited to or what their master chose to th each. Obi Wan learned Ataru because that is what Qui Gon taught him. He switched to Soresu upon becoming a Knight after witnessing Qui Gon get killed due to Ataru’s lack of defense and how easily the form tires the duelist. He didn’t study Niman at all canonically. He went from Shii-Cho to Ataru to Soresu, in that order, and became the master of Soresu.

No. I find it a deficient lightsaber form in terms of actual lightsaber use; that relies too heavily on telekinetic tricks; a form that got all of the practitioners at the first Battle of Geonosis killed.

Actually standard means " a level of quality or attainment." or "a required or agreed level of quality or attainment." "an idea or thing used as a measure, norm, or model in comparative evaluations" it is the thing by which others are judged. If you do not have Niman you do not have the "basic compentency" with saber combat, you need to show beyond niman skill in ALL areas to be considered to have basic compentency. If you were a makashi user and did not have at least as good a deflection skill as Niman you were not considered up to the standards of saber combat. So most had training in Niman simply to shore up their weaknesses with the form they did choose. because it was the standard. It was the measuring stick, it was basic competency level that also means that anyone just using niman never had BEYOND the basic competency level which was my whole point and that says more about the users than the form.

18 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No. I find it a deficient lightsaber form in terms of actual lightsaber use; that relies too heavily on telekinetic tricks; a form that got all of the practitioners at the first Battle of Geonosis killed.

I eagerly await your soresu build for the niman vs soresu challenge tomorrow. Man up or shut up Mike. There is a greater than 80% chance that the subpar vigilance check I already rolled means the niman build will go first for the first of the 10 matches.

7 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

I eagerly await your soresu build for the niman vs soresu challenge tomorrow. Man up or shut up Mike. There is a greater than 80% chance that the subpar vigilance check I already rolled means the niman build will go first for the first of the 10 matches.

doesn't Sum dJem just win you the fight if no TK is allowed and you have a high enough skill.

I will say the form I am disappointed by most in the game is Shien Expert. They call it Shien expert but it is actually the 2 halves of form v merged into a single tree. So we have both Djem So and Shien in one tree and I feel like it does not quite capture the essence of either that well. Though I will say, Disruptive Strike + Counter strike + falling avalanche does feel good but you really need to pick another tree that has + force rating to really make it shine and it means you probably are not committing your dice to anything....

33 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

doesn't Sum dJem just win you the fight if no TK is allowed and you have a high enough skill.

My build has 1 rank in lightsaber and the rules of the contest make it impossible to have more than 2 ranks. But combination of strain economy and defense plus niman disciple almost always getting to go first gives niman a significant edge anyway. Soresu just sucks for dueling, it's good for tanking against multiple melee opponents and ok at protecting allies (knight does that better) but niman, makashi, and shii cho are all better at one vs. One defense than the soresu spec. It's really hard for me to say whether niman or makashi is better at one vs. one defense, I'd guess makashi has a slight edge (1 fewer ranks of defensive training 2 more of parry)

5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

But that’s not what was taught, nor how the forms were taught. Remember what “standard” means. It means average, normal, or common. A lot of Jedi didn’t focus on the lightsaber, as such Niman was a very common form, thus “standard” for a lot of Jedi, and something that could be expected for many Jedi to train in. That’s not the same thing as saying those who trained in the other forms trained in Niman first, or even second. This is not the case. Jedi would instead train in the fundamentals of Shii-Cho then move directly into whatever form they were best suited to or what their master chose to th each. Obi Wan learned Ataru because that is what Qui Gon taught him. He switched to Soresu upon becoming a Knight after witnessing Qui Gon get killed due to Ataru’s lack of defense and how easily the form tires the duelist. He didn’t study Niman at all canonically. He went from Shii-Cho to Ataru to Soresu, in that order, and became the master of Soresu.

No. I find it a deficient lightsaber form in terms of actual lightsaber use; that relies too heavily on telekinetic tricks; a form that got all of the practitioners at the first Battle of Geonosis killed.

So your argument is not about this game and it’s mechanics but non-canon lore and perception? Is that why you are shying away from Elias’ challenge?

And on that account you didn’t address anything I said about it when you first brought it up.

And to bring it back to the original conversation- I don’t think it’s the end-all-be-all but I do think it has a lot to offer compared to the other forms in this game. You don’t. The original point was to make suggestions to the OP about what’s a good combination. They all have something to offer depending on what you’re looking for. Elias and I both think Niman is good in combination but others are free to suggest otherwise. Mechanically they all seemed designed to give Jedi PCs a way of being good with a lightsaber but also at other things in part by letting them use different characteristics in wielding a lightsaber.

What suggestions would you make to the OP about good combinations?

I agree with Elias that Ataru is very well balanced with the best offensive power and also offers Reflect and Improved Parry and some defensive stuff. It pairs well with a number of trees but I think particularly well with Seer as it offers more Force Rating (feeding general force ability and saber swarm) and more Dodge. But again the question in picking further specs is what do you want to be good at. Ataru already makes you great at attack so I’d prefer to round it out with force ability and mode defense (Dodge also helps Improved Parry).

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

My build has 1 rank in lightsaber and the rules of the contest make it impossible to have more than 2 ranks. But combination of strain economy and def  ense plus niman disciple almost always getting to go first gives niman a significant edge anyway. Soresu just sucks for dueling, it's good for tanking against multiple melee opponents and ok at protecting allies (knight does that better) but niman, makashi, and shii cho are all better at one vs. One defense than the soresu spec. It's really hard for me to say whether niman or makashi is better at one vs. one defense, I'd guess makashi has a slight edge (1 fewer ranks of defensive training 2 more of parry)

I can assume where Shien falls in your opinion. Probably decent at fighting multiple blaster opponents but probably not great at anything in this game. (so what were the build rules. I am interested in seeing if I can't make a shien work in some way... I am assuming "knight level" play)

31 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

I can assume where Shien falls in your opinion. Probably decent at fighting multiple blaster opponents but probably not great at anything in this game. (so what were the build rules. I am interested in seeing if I can't make a shien work in some way... I am assuming "knight level" play)

Raw starting human character (120 xp counting 10 from morality) then add all the talents from 1 lightsaber form spec, no force powers. You get an unmodified basic lightsaber and concealing robes as your only gear. Sprecifically it was a niman vs. Soresu comparison. Also niman wouldn't use draw closer (throwing away the telekinetic crutch so Tramp wouldn't have an excuse when niman beat soresu for the majority of the 10 matches)

Btw expect ataru striker to come out on top

18 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Raw starting human character (120 xp counting 10 from morality) then add all the talents from 1 lightsaber form spec, no force powers. You get an unmodified basic lightsaber and concealing robes as your only gear. Sprecifically it was a niman vs. Soresu comparison. Also niman wouldn't use draw closer (throwing away the telekinetic crutch so Tramp wouldn't have an excuse when niman beat soresu for the majority of the 10 matches)

Btw expect ataru striker to come out on top

ew this seems.... very weird like.... what character would ever do this.... I think that may be my whole point it is not about form it is about practitioner. It is about efficiency. If you just focus all on the forms talents you miss out on other crucial skills, force powers and so, so much more.

Its possible to beat Ataru, you just have to strain them down. Which from experience is how my Ataru user usually ends the fight, on the floor surrounded by a massive pile of corpses.

37 minutes ago, tunewalker said:

ew this seems.... very weird like.... what character would ever do this.... I think that may be my whole point it is not about form it is about practitioner. It is about efficiency. If you just focus all on the forms talents you miss out on other crucial skills, force powers and so, so much more.

The point of the contest was to compare forms rather than anything else, so Tramp didn't have any excuses when niman beat soresu.

1 hour ago, EliasWindrider said:

The point of the contest was to compare forms rather than anything else, so Tramp didn't have any excuses when niman beat soresu.

I understand that it just, isn't actually practical in any way as most people do not fill out entire trees they just take what they need and unless your game is going long it may be a line and a few skills to rank 2 or so. I am interested in the "knight level play" start version of this here the only force powers allowed are enhance and sense.....

On 5/8/2019 at 6:34 PM, EliasWindrider said:

If you're trying to make the ultimate badass (in terms of damage output as opposed to an critical hit insta kill build) with a lightsaber, then seeker:ataru-striker/sage with knight as the third spec.

Why Sage and not Seer? 2x Rapid reaction synergizes nicely with 2x Quick strike talents of Ataru, Dodge, 2x Grit, 2x Toughend and so on.

For Sage I mainly see knowledge and social talents. (?)

On 5/11/2019 at 3:58 AM, EliasWindrider said:

Niman is mechanically the best lightsaber form at self defense against melee attacks in a one at one duel.

Would this not be a Makashi Duelist? I did not look at all the specs in detail, but when you cannot be disarmed but on the other hand easily disarm everyone else... what else do you need?