4 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Those “benefits” rely too much on Force powers, such as telekinesis, rather than the lightsaber itself. That is why I say it is the weakest lightsaber form, both canonically and mechanically. Take away a Niman user’s use of the Force and he’s done for. None of the other lightsaber specs rely So heavily on Force powers.

Really? Using a lightsaber requires the Force to do it well (Sabine doesn’t and she does ok against someone who also doesn’t). All Jedi use the Force when using a lightsaber, both mechanically and narratively.

Also every lightsaber style talent (Soresu Technique, Shien Technique etc) are Force Talents. So is Reflect. Are those crutches?

If you want to claim that a Technique or talent that doesn’t directly apply to a Lightsaber check is a crutch that’s limiting the understanding of what a style is. Bringing a tool to bear against a foe is very much part of a style’s approach and considering other tools than just one is not a crutch but indicates a style that takes a more expansive approach.

Styles do include things not directly related to a Lightsaber check or defense against one. Confidence (Soresu), Conditioned and Street Smarts (Shien) for example. Styles trains things outside strictly Lightsaber use.

14 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Those “benefits” rely too much on Force powers, such as telekinesis, rather than the lightsaber itself. That is why I say it is the weakest lightsaber form, both canonically and mechanically. Take away a Niman user’s use of the Force and he’s done for. None of the other lightsaber specs rely So heavily on Force powers.

Statistically a niman disciple with all niman disciple talents no powers and only starting skills will more often than not beat a soresu defender with no powers all talents and only starting skills even without using draw closer. Niman disciple either has strictly better one on one defense than soresu defender or equivalent defense with better action and strain economy in a one on one duel.

So you ready for that challenge? build a RAW human guardian soresu defender including 10 xp from morality, then add all soresu defender talents for free. No force powers. I'll do the same with niman disciple and we'll run 10 combats starting at short range and see who wins the most. And I won't use draw closer for these hypothetical combats. Concealing robes and unmodified basic lightsabers as the only gear. Of course if you decline you concede that niman disciple without using telekinesis is a better duelist than soresu defender.

I'm figuring on either using all starting xp to put willpower to 5, and using the dedication to get it to 6, or to put a 3 in brawn, 4 in willpower, and spend 10 of the remaining 20 xp to get a second rank in lightsaber and a and using dedication to get it up to 5.

Yo realize of course that the niman disciple will be doing this with 1 hand tied back by not benefiting from the 3 strongest talents in the tree (force rating, draw closer, and force assault)

16 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

And how do you take away telekinesis?

And it’s not a crutch. It’s part of the style. Using the Force while fighting is not some crutch mechanically or narratively. The other lightsaber form specs have talents that call on the Force as well, explicitly called out Force talents and each one has one that lets you use your Force Rating. Is that a crutch for them? Niman’s increases chance to hit and damage as part of using a lightsaber. Narratively that means that the user is using the Force to push/pull/manipulate the opponent off balance or whatever but it’s actually integrated into a lightsaber attack.

And if you want to claim that “oops, I missed on my lightsaber atttack, I guess I’ll throw that Bantha at you for a Maneuver this turn too “ is a crutch because you didn’t exclusively use a lightsaber then go ahead but it’s pretty pedantic.

That's exactly my point. No other lightsaber form uses active Force powers that way. They only use the Force to enhance their natural abilities with the blade itself. That is why I say it's a crutch. The Niman user isn't relying on his blade. He's relying on other Force powers that really have nothing to do with the use of the lightsaber itself.

16 hours ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Really? Using a lightsaber requires the Force to do it well (Sabine doesn’t and she does ok against someone who also doesn’t). All Jedi use the Force when using a lightsaber, both mechanically and narratively.

Also every lightsaber style talent (Soresu Technique, Shien Technique etc) are Force Talents. So is Reflect. Are those crutches?

If you want to claim that a Technique or talent that doesn’t directly apply to a Lightsaber check is a crutch that’s limiting the understanding of what a style is. Bringing a tool to bear against a foe is very much part of a style’s approach and considering other tools than just one is not a crutch but indicates a style that takes a more expansive approach.

Styles do include things not directly related to a Lightsaber check or defense against one. Confidence (Soresu), Conditioned and Street Smarts (Shien) for example. Styles trains things outside strictly Lightsaber use.

Yes, it is a "Crutch", very much so. Niman relies heavily on telekinesis. A number of its Force talents, such as Draw Closer , rely on a limited application of the Move Force power as part of the talent. That's not the case with any other lightsaber form. The other forms may use the Force to enhance the user's natural ability to strike or defend with the blade itself, but don't usually revolve around using active Force powers, such as telekinesis as part of an attack, such as pushing or pulling an opponent, and the like with the Force. About the only other lightsaber form which even has a single Force talent which uses any form of telekinesis is Throw Lightsaber , from Ataru Striker , Sentry , and Jedi Knight , and that's only for the purpose of retrieving the lightsaber after throwing it. Actually making the attack doesn't require telekinesis. It just requires being accurate . As such, any use of the Force is only to increase the user's natural accuracy when making the throw. No other lightsaber form relies on the use of telekinesis in its attacks. They all rely on the user's actual skill with a blade. Niman relies heavily on Telekinesis and other Force powers in lieu of skill with a blade. That's what makes it a crutch.

15 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

Statistically a niman disciple with all niman disciple talents no powers and only starting skills will more often than not beat a soresu defender with no powers all talents and only starting skills even without using draw closer. Niman disciple either has strictly better one on one defense than soresu defender or equivalent defense with better action and strain economy in a one on one duel.

So you ready for that challenge? build a RAW human guardian soresu defender including 10 xp from morality, then add all soresu defender talents for free. No force powers. I'll do the same with niman disciple and we'll run 10 combats starting at short range and see who wins the most. And I won't use draw closer for these hypothetical combats. Concealing robes and unmodified basic lightsabers as the only gear. Of course if you decline you concede that niman disciple without using telekinesis is a better duelist than soresu defender.

I'm figuring on either using all starting xp to put willpower to 5, and using the dedication to get it to 6, or to put a 3 in brawn, 4 in willpower, and spend 10 of the remaining 20 xp to get a second rank in lightsaber and a and using dedication to get it up to 5.

Yo realize of course that the niman disciple will be doing this with 1 hand tied back by not benefiting from the 3 strongest talents in the tree (force rating, draw closer, and force assault)

Niman's talents utilize limited versions of a number of Force powers as part of those talents. So it doesn't really matter if the user has the full version of said power or not. A Niman Disciple using Draw Closer doesn't necessarily need to have the full version of Move to use the Draw Closer talent. The same with Force Assault talent. That's my point. So it doesn't matter if you make a character with all of the form's talents but no actual Force powers. The Niman user is still using and relying on a limited form of those powers as part of specific talents. Soresu and the other Lightsaber forms don't do that.

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That's exactly my point. No other lightsaber form uses active Force powers that way. They only use the Force to enhance their natural abilities with the blade itself. That is why I say it's a crutch. The Niman user isn't relying on his blade. He's relying on other Force powers that really have nothing to do with the use of the lightsaber itself.

Yes, it is a "Crutch", very much so. Niman relies heavily on telekinesis. A number of its Force talents, such as Draw Closer , rely on a limited application of the Move Force power as part of the talent. That's not the case with any other lightsaber form. The other forms may use the Force to enhance the user's natural ability to strike or defend with the blade itself, but don't usually revolve around using active Force powers, such as telekinesis as part of an attack, such as pushing or pulling an opponent, and the like with the Force. About the only other lightsaber form which even has a single Force talent which uses any form of telekinesis is Throw Lightsaber , from Ataru Striker , Sentry , and Jedi Knight , and that's only for the purpose of retrieving the lightsaber after throwing it. Actually making the attack doesn't require telekinesis. It just requires being accurate . As such, any use of the Force is only to increase the user's natural accuracy when making the throw. No other lightsaber form relies on the use of telekinesis in its attacks. They all rely on the user's actual skill with a blade. Niman relies heavily on Telekinesis and other Force powers in lieu of skill with a blade. That's what makes it a crutch.

Niman's talents utilize limited versions of a number of Force powers as part of those talents. So it doesn't really matter if the user has the full version of said power or not. A Niman Disciple using Draw Closer doesn't necessarily need to have the full version of Move to use the Draw Closer talent. The same with Force Assault talent. That's my point. So it doesn't matter if you make a character with all of the form's talents but no actual Force powers. The Niman user is still using and relying on a limited form of those pow ers as part of specific talents. Soresu and the other Lightsaber forms don't do that.

Niman doesn't need force assault or draw closer to beat soresu more often than not. Time to man up or shut up. Best out of 10 to average out randomness. Human with Starting xp (including 10 from morality) only plus all talents for free, no force powers, and niman won't use draw closer or force assault. Concealing robes and basic lightsabers as the only gear starting at short range.

If you decline you concede.

2 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Niman doesn't need force assault or draw closer to beat soresu more often than not. Time to man up or shut up. Best out of 10 to average out randomness. Human with Starting xp (including 10 from morality) only plus all talents for free, no force powers, and niman won't use draw closer or force assault. Concealing robes and basic lightsabers as the only gear starting at short range.

If you decline you concede.

I don't concede anything.

8 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I don't concede anything.

Then I expect to see your build for the challenge in the next few hours

I'll tell you mine now, 2 in all attributes except a 6 in willpower, a spec rank in lightsaber and a human rank in vigilance. 2 ranks in discipline, a rank in negotiation, and the other skills won't matter. So strain threshold of 16 and wound threshold of 14, soak 2. 2 defense from 2 ranks of defensive training

Vigilance for initiative match 1 : 1eP+5eA 3 successes, 3 advantage

5 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Then I expect to see your build for the challenge in the next few hours

I'll tell you mine now, 2 in all attributes except a 6 in willpower, a spec rank in lightsaber and a human rank in vigilance. 2 ranks in discipline, a rank in negotiation, and the other skills won't matter. So strain threshold of 16 and wound threshold of 14, soak 2. 2 defense from 2 ranks of defensive training

Vigilance for initiative match 1 : 1eP+5eA 3 successes, 3 advantage

Not likely. The library computers will be shutting down soon, and I'm not about to try that on my phone. Besides, Draw Closer and Force Assault aren't the only Force talents which are "crutches" of the Niman Disciple . They're just the two most egregious. As you yourself said, Niman is for "Force wizards". It's not for dedicated lightsaber duelists.

6 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Not likely. The library computers will be shutting down soon, and I'm not about to try that on my phone. Besides, Draw Closer and Force Assault aren't the only Force talents which are "crutches" of the Niman Disciple . They're just the two most egregious. As you yourself said, Niman is for "Force wizards". It's not for dedicated lightsaber duelists.

Fine you can post tomorrow, what else in niman disciple do you object to as unfair for dueling because it uses the force in a different way than other forms. Both makashi and shii-cho have center of being and defensive training, I know of the top of my head that makashi has sum djem, so I'm at a loss for what you would object to. Every non warrior form has a substitute attribute for lightsaber checks.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That's exactly my point. No other lightsaber form uses active Force powers that way. They only use the Force to enhance their natural abilities with the blade itself. That is why I say it's a crutch. The Niman user isn't relying on his blade. He's relying on other Force powers that really have nothing to do with the use of the lightsaber itself.

Yes, it is a "Crutch", very much so. Niman relies heavily on telekinesis. A number of its Force talents, such as Draw Closer , rely on a limited application of the Move Force power as part of the talent. That's not the case with any other lightsaber form. The other forms may use the Force to enhance the user's natural ability to strike or defend with the blade itself, but don't usually revolve around using active Force powers, such as telekinesis as part of an attack, such as pushing or pulling an opponent, and the like with the Force. About the only other lightsaber form which even has a single Force talent which uses any form of telekinesis is Throw Lightsaber , from Ataru Striker , Sentry , and Jedi Knight , and that's only for the purpose of retrieving the lightsaber after throwing it. Actually making the attack doesn't require telekinesis. It just requires being accurate . As such, any use of the Force is only to increase the user's natural accuracy when making the throw. No other lightsaber form relies on the use of telekinesis in its attacks. They all rely on the user's actual skill with a blade. Niman relies heavily on Telekinesis and other Force powers in lieu of skill with a blade. That's what makes it a crutch.

Niman's talents utilize limited versions of a number of Force powers as part of those talents. So it doesn't really matter if the user has the full version of said power or not. A Niman Disciple using Draw Closer doesn't necessarily need to have the full version of Move to use the Draw Closer talent. The same with Force Assault talent. That's my point. So it doesn't matter if you make a character with all of the form's talents but no actual Force powers. The Niman user is still using and relying on a limited form of those powers as part of specific talents. Soresu and the other Lightsaber forms don't do that.

So? A Jedi incorporates force use into a fighting style? That’s not a crutch or weakness or drawback. It’s like saying Shi-cho users are posers because they can reroll Melee checks. Like I said above: styles are about bringing various tools to bear to defeat opponents. Niman uses the Force as part of that package. And sometimes that means it’s somewhat though not wholly independent of blade work (not that it really matters). We were having a lightsaber duel and he used the Force to push aside my parry! No fair! He has to do that another way! This isn’t like a sanctioned Karate tournament for youth with a long list of illegal moves when scoring points. It’s a combat style to win deadly fights. And Draw Closer is a Lightsaber check - it’s inherently part of the blade work. It’s lake saying Makashi Feints are a crutch. Or Hawkbat Swoop - no leaping in a lightsaber fight! That’s the Force man!

15 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Fine you can post tomorrow, what else in niman disciple do you object to as unfair for dueling because it uses the force in a different way than other forms.

It’s not a matter of “fair”. It’s a matter of it being a crutch. Without those “Force heavy” talents, you basically strip half of the form, weakening it significantly. Niman simply does not primarily rely on just the Lightsaber. It heavily relies on active Force use. That’s not opinion, it’s fact. Also, I just checked the full Force Assault talent. without the actual Move Force power, you couldn’t even use that talent.

2 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

So? A Jedi incorporates force use into a fighting style? That’s not a crutch or weakness or drawback. It’s like saying Shi-cho users are posers because they can reroll Melee checks. Like I said above: styles are about bringing various tools to bear to defeat opponents. Niman uses the Force as part of that package. And sometimes that means it’s somewhat though not wholly independent of blade work (not that it really matters). And Draw Closer is a Lightsaber check - it’s inherently part of the blade work. It’s lake saying Makashi Feints are a crutch. Or Hawkbat Swoop - no leaping in a lightsaber fight! That’s the Force man!

No, it isn’t. It’s using telekinesis to pull a target to you in order to allow you to strike. The Force is not enhancing your natural ability with the blade itself.

A Makashi duelist’s Feint isn’t even a use of the Force at all; it’s not a Force talent. It’s using the blade itself to misdirect your opponent in order to create an opening. The only actual Force talents Makashi has are the actual technique, Sum Djem, Makashi Finish, and Makashi Flourish, and all of them simply enhance the duelist’s use of his lightsaber. Sum Djem enhances his ability to disarm his foe, Finish enhances his ability to Crit his for, and Flourish enhances his ability to exhaust his foe. All three rely completely on his skill with a lightsaber enhanced by the Force. The Force is not used in lieu of the lightsaber.

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It’s not a matter of “fair”. It’s a matter of it being a crutch. Without those “Force heavy” talents, you basically strip half of the form, weakening it significantly. Niman simply does not primarily rely on just the Lightsaber. It heavily relies on active Force use. That’s not opinion, it’s fact. Also, I just checked the full Force Assault talent. without the actual Move Force power, you couldn’t even use that talent.

No, it isn’t. It’s using telekinesis to pull a target to you in order to allow you to strike. The Force is not enhancing your natural ability with the blade itself.

A Makashi duelist’s Feint isn’t even a use of the Force at all; it’s not a Force talent. It’s using the blade itself to misdirect your opponent in order to create an opening. The only actual Force talents Makashi has are the actual technique, Sum Djem, Makashi Finish, and Makashi Flourish, and all of them simply enhance the duelist’s use of his lightsaber. Sum Djem enhances his ability to disarm his foe, Finish enhances his ability to Crit his for, and Flourish enhances his ability to exhaust his foe. All three rely completely on his skill with a lightsaber enhanced by the Force. The Force is not used in lieu of the lightsaber.

So? Why does that distinction matter (not that I agree with it: if it’s in lieu then it’s not a Lightsaber check )? What’s the point?

A Sho-cho practitioner (or anyone else) can’t use Brawl to kick someone because it’s not using a lightsaber?

Makashi can’t feint without using a lightsaber? They can’t feint with a body motion, kick or punch? That’s all up to the narrative.

5 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It’s not a matter of “fair”. It’s a matter of it being a crutch. Without those “Force heavy” talents, you basically strip half of the form, weakening it significantly. Niman simply does not primarily rely on just the Lightsaber. It heavily relies on active Force use. That’s not opinion, it’s fact. Also, I just checked the full Force Assault talent. without the actual Move Force power, you couldn’t even use that talent.

No, it isn’t. It’s using telekinesis to pull a target to you in order to allow you to strike. The Force is not enhancing your natural ability with the blade itself.

A Makashi duelist’s Feint isn’t even a use of the Force at all; it’s not a Force talent. It’s using the blade itself to misdirect your opponent in order to create an opening. The only actual Force talents Makashi has are the actual technique, Sum Djem, Makashi Finish, and Makashi Flourish, and all of them simply enhance the duelist’s use of his lightsaber. Sum Djem enhances his ability to disarm his foe, Finish enhances his ability to Crit his for, and Flourish enhances his ability to exhaust his foe. All three rely completely on his skill with a lightsaber enhanced by the Force. The Force is not used in lieu of the lightsaber.

So you’re backing away from the challenge and the argument because now Niman isn’t really a lightsaber style?

16 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

It’s not a matter of “fair”. It’s a matter of it being a crutch. Without those “Force heavy” talents, you basically strip half of the form, weakening it significantly. Niman simply does not primarily rely on just the Lightsaber. It heavily relies on active Force use. That’s not opinion, it’s fact. Also, I just checked the full Force Assault talent. without the actual Move Force power, you couldn’t even use that talent.

Niman without forcepowers and without draw closer (i.e. without it's telekinetic crutches) is still statistically better in a straight up one on one duel than soresu. And you're not telling me anything that I don't know about niman mechanics. I am deliberately removing niman's "telekinetic crutches" your words so you won't have any excuses after niman beats soresu more often than not.

6 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Niman without forcepowers and without draw closer (i.e. without it's telekinetic crutches) is still statistically better in a straight up one on one duel than soresu. And you're not telling me anything that I don't know about niman mechanics. I am deliberately removing niman's "telekinetic crutches" your words so you won't have any excuses after niman beats soresu more often than not.

Is this not implying that soresu is weak? I am asking as I was planning on taking it on my character as it is mostly int focused

28 minutes ago, Oldmike1 said:

Is this not implying that soresu is weak? I am asking as I was planning on taking it on my character as it is mostly int focused

Soresu is largely obsoleted by the knight class, except that soresu technique talent let's you use int for lightsaber attacks.

Soresu is the unmatched king of the hill when it comes to tanking melee attacks from multiple opponents, but it achieves that through supreme parry which if you forgo attacking let's you parry for 1 strain instead of 3... but you generally don't beat the other guy without attacking him. Soresu attempts to get around that by improved parry talent which if the attacker scores a despair or 3 threat you get to deal base damage to them, when the difficulty to hit you is 2 purple the threat option of triggering improved parry only useful against mooks (rolling 3 or less positive dice). In an attempt to make improved parry effective against non mook opponents soresu has 2 ranks of defensive stance but to use them you have to spend a maneuver and 2 strain ahead of time... soresu is good at certain things but dueling isn't one of them. If you had to duel as a soresu defender your better off ignoring that you have defensive stance and supreme parry, use the sense defense full upgrade to upgrade dice and having uber armor to get you 4 defense.

But... having vigilance (or presence) as your key stat (niman or makashi) would probably mean you get to go first, and both of those specs have defensive training talent (free black dice). Makashi is also the only spec that can't be disarmed

But if you want to kick butt with a lightsaber your first stop should be ataru.

2 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Soresu is largely obsoleted by the knight class, except that soresu technique talent let's you use int for lightsaber attacks.

Soresu is the unmatched king of the hill when it comes to tanking melee attacks from multiple opponents, but it achieves that through supreme parry which if you forgo attacking let's you parry for 1 strain instead of 3... but you generally don't beat the other guy without attacking him. Soresu attempts to get around that by improved parry talent which if the attacker scores a despair or 3 threat you get to deal base damage to them, when the difficulty to hit you is 2 purple the threat option of triggering improved parry only useful against mooks (rolling 3 or less positive dice). In an attempt to make improved parry effective against non mook opponents soresu has 2 ranks of defensive stance but to use them you have to spend a maneuver and 2 strain ahead of time... soresu is good at certain things but dueling isn't one of them. If you had to duel as a soresu defender your better off ignoring that you have defensive stance and supreme parry, use the sense defense full upgrade to upgrade dice and having uber armor to get you 4 defense.

But... having vigilance (or presence) as your key stat (niman or makashi) would probably mean you get to go first, and both of those specs have defensive training talent (free black dice). Makashi is also the only spec that can't be disarmed

It does use improved parry to get those attacks in. but it is gonna take longer as you need threats and despairs on your opponents attacks,

3 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

It does use improved parry to get those attacks in. but it is gonna take longer as you need threats and despairs on your opponents attacks,

And it has to be an attack that you parried, so they had to hit you first. Taken together it means you take more damage than you deal with improved parry

My observation running this game is that playing the “long game” of defense like Soresu does (and Shien) is not as fun or useful as other approaches. Fights don’t last that long. It also depends on party makeup. My group has a strong Mercenary Soldier and an Ataru Striker so threats don’t survive long. YMMV

2 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

My observation running this game is that playing the “long game” of defense like Soresu does (and Shien) is not as fun or useful as other approaches. Fights don’t past that long. It also depends on party makeup. My group has a strong Mercenary Soldier and an Ataru Striker so threats don’t survive long. YMMV

Supreme reflect and improved reflect is actually more useful in my opinion than supreme and improved parry. Largely because improved reflect works against anyone shooting at you rather than just the people standing next to you and melee attacking you.

10 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

And it has to be an attack that you parried, so they had to hit you first. Taken together it means you take more damage than you deal with improved parry

they have to hit you. but may not have actually done damage...with parry depending on how many ranks you have

42 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

So? Why does that distinction matter (not that I agree with it: if it’s in lieu then it’s not a Lightsaber check )? What’s the point?

A Sho-cho practitioner (or anyone else) can’t use Brawl to kick someone because it’s not using a lightsaber?

Makashi can’t feint without using a lightsaber? They can’t feint with a body motion, kick or punch? That’s all up to the narrative.

No, they’re not. In both examples you provide the combatant is using his native fighting techniques and skills, not Telekenesis or other Force powers. In fact, the Shii-Cho user is almost guaranteed to use just his lightsaber anyway. Pretty much all of his talents are lightsaber specific. It only has eight talents total which are not focused on the lightsaber and none of them are attack talents. Can he use Brawl? Sure, but he doesn’t really benefit from doing so instead of his lightsaber, and none of his talents rely on it.

39 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

So you’re backing away from the challenge and the argument because now Niman isn’t really a lightsaber style?

That’s not what I said. Don’t put words in my mouth. And I never took up Elias’ “challenge” to begin with.

Now, to further counter one of your previous examples, Haekbat Swoop doesn’t rely on telekinesis or other Force powers in lieu of a lightsaber attack. All it does is enhance the duelist’s ability to leap at his opponents from a greater distance so he can attack them directly. Saber Swarm, as well, simply makes it easier for the Jedi to attack multiple foes.

22 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Niman without forcepowers and without draw closer (i.e. without it's telekinetic crutches) is still statistically better in a straight up one on one duel than soresu. And you're not telling me anything that I don't know about niman mechanics. I am deliberately removing niman's "telekinetic crutches" your words so you won't have any excuses after niman beats soresu more often than not.

13 minutes ago, Oldmike1 said:

Is this not implying that soresu is weak? I am asking as I was planning on taking it on my character as it is mostly int focused

5 minutes ago, EliasWindrider said:

Soresu is largely obsoleted by the knight class, except that soresu technique talent let's you use int for lightsaber attacks.

Soresu is the unmatched king of the hill when it comes to tanking melee attacks from multiple opponents, but it achieves that through supreme parry which if you forgo attacking let's you parry for 1 strain instead of 3... but you generally don't beat the other guy without attacking him. Soresu attempts to get around that by improved parry talent which if the attacker scores a despair or 3 threat you get to deal base damage to them, when the difficulty to hit you is 2 purple the threat option of triggering improved parry only useful against mooks (rolling 3 or less positive dice). In an attempt to make improved parry effective against non mook opponents soresu has 2 ranks of defensive stance but to use them you have to spend a maneuver and 2 strain ahead of time... soresu is good at certain things but dueling isn't one of them. If you had to duel as a soresu defender your better off ignoring that you have defensive stance and supreme parry, use the sense defense full upgrade to upgrade dice and having uber armor to get you 4 defense.

But... having vigilance (or presence) as your key stat (niman or makashi) would probably mean you get to go first, and both of those specs have defensive training talent (free black dice). Makashi is also the only spec that can't be disarmed

1 minute ago, Daeglan said:

It does use improved parry to get those attacks in. but it is gonna take longer as you need threats and despairs on your opponents attacks,

Exactly. Soresu is a purely defensive style, designed to wear an opponent out. As you said, it’s the ultimate “tank”.

1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

It has to be an attack that you parried, so they had to hit you first.

From a game mechanics standpoint, yes. However, with enough ranks in Parry, you could reduce that damage down to zero, meaning that narratively, he didn’t hit at all. Obi-Wan was a master of Soresu, and not even General Grievous, with four lightsabers spinning at high speed could get through his defense, and Kenobi was able to literally disarm two of Grievous’ weapons (and hands) in the process.

3 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

My observation running this game is that playing the “long game” of defense like Soresu does (and Shien) is not as fun or useful as other approaches. Fights don’t past that long. It also depends on party makeup. My group has a strong Mercenary Soldier and an Ataru Striker so threats don’t survive long. YMMV

That’s your opinion, and one I don’t share, given that I play a Soresu Defender. I find it to be very fun and useful. But, as you said, your mileage may vary.

1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

Supreme reflect and improved reflect is actually more useful in my opinion than supreme and improved parry. Largely because improved reflect works against anyone shooting at you rather than just the people standing next to you and melee attacking you.

That’s only if the majority of opponents you expect to face are blaster users. And Soresu does grant Improved Reflect.

Just now, Tramp Graphics said:

No, they’re not. In both examples you provide the combatant is using his native fighting techniques and skills, not Telekenesis or other Force powers. In fact, the Shii-Cho user is almost guaranteed to use just his lightsaber anyway. Pretty much all of his talents are lightsaber specific. It only has eight talents total which are not focused on the lightsaber and none of them are attack talents. Can he use Brawl? Sure, but he doesn’t really benefit from doing so instead of his lightsaber, and none of his talents rely on it.

That’s not what I said. Don’t put words in my mouth. And I never took up Elias’ “challenge” to begin with.

Now, to further counter one of your previous examples, Haekbat Swoop doesn’t rely on telekinesis or other Force powers in lieu of a lightsaber attack. All it does is enhance the duelist’s ability to leap at his opponents from a greater distance so he can attack them directly. Saber Swarm, as well, simply makes it easier for the Jedi to attack multiple foes.

Exactly. Soresu is a purely defensive style, designed to wear an opponent out. As you said, it’s the ultimate “tank”.

From a game mechanics standpoint, yes. However, with enough ranks in Parry, you could reduce that damage down to zero, meaning that narratively, he didn’t hit at all. Obi-Wan was a master of Soresu, and not even General Grievous, with four lightsabers spinning at high speed could get through his defense, and Kenobi was able to literally disarm two of Grievous’ weapons (and hands) in the process.

That’s your opinion, and one I don’t share, given that I play a Soresu Defender. I find it to be very fun and useful. But, as you said, your mileage may vary.

That’s only if the majority of opponents you expect to face are blaster users. And Soresu does grant Improved Reflect.

How is using the force to hurl stuff any different than using the force to leap to and beat senseless a guy with your lightsaber? but are using your characters talents.

Base damage of an unmodified basic lightsaber is 6, there has to be at least 1 uncancelled success, soresu has 4 ranks of parry so you're taking a minimum of 3 damage each hit you take and about 1/6 of them you get to deal 6 back out, so you take at least 18 for every 6 you deal on average, that's with basic gear and no other specs.

Edit: correction... you took 18 STRAIN and at least 6 damage for every 6 damage you deal via Improved parry

4 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No, they’re not. In both examples you provide the combatant is using his native fighting techniques and skills, not Telekenesis or other Force powers. In fact, the Shii-Cho user is almost guaranteed to use just his lightsaber anyway. Pretty much all of his talents are lightsaber specific. It only has eight talents total which are not focused on the lightsaber and none of them are attack talents. Can he use Brawl? Sure, but he doesn’t really benefit from doing so instead of his lightsaber, and none of his talents rely on it.

That’s not what I said. Don’t put words in my mouth. And I never took up Elias’ “challenge” to begin with.

Now, to further counter one of your previous examples, Haekbat Swoop doesn’t rely on telekinesis or other Force powers in lieu of a lightsaber attack. All it does is enhance the duelist’s ability to leap at his opponents from a greater distance so he can attack them directly. Saber Swarm, as well, simply makes it easier for the Jedi to attack multiple foes.

Exactly. Soresu is a purely defensive style, designed to wear an opponent out. As you said, it’s the ultimate “tank”.

From a game mechanics standpoint, yes. However, with enough ranks in Parry, you could reduce that damage down to zero, meaning that narratively, he didn’t hit at all. Obi-Wan was a master of Soresu, and not even General Grievous, with four lightsabers spinning at high speed could get through his defense, and Kenobi was able to literally disarm two of Grievous’ weapons (and hands) in the process.

That’s your opinion, and one I don’t share, given that I play a Soresu Defender. I find it to be very fun and useful. But, as you said, your mileage may vary.

That’s only if the majority of opponents you expect to face are blaster users. And Soresu does grant Improved Reflect.

Tramp you continually avoid my main point and nit-pick side issues. My main point still stands: using the Force is part of a fighting style - a lightsaber fighting style. You have yet to really get to why this is important or of any significance. We may disagree a lot about interpreting these things but we basically agree that using the Force is part of the Niman style. Why is that something you are hung up on? Why does they really matter? You seem to be driving at that it’s not really a lightsaber style.

1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

Base damage of an unmodified basic lightsaber is 6, there has to be at least 1 uncancelled success, soresu has 4 ranks of parry so you're taking a minimum of 3 damage each hit you take and about 1/6 of them you get to deal 6 back out, so you take at least 18 for every 6 you deal on average, that's with basic gear and no other specs.

you did your math wrong. 4 ranks of parry reduces 6 damage. so not a minimum of 3 damage.