I should have worded it better.

I've seen mention of certain career/spec combos being better than others, I'm curious which ones.

3 hours ago, bblaney001 said:

I should have worded it better.

I've seen mention of certain career/spec combos being better than others, I'm curious which ones.

I think we still need more information. Do you want a character who's good at fighting up close? Fighting at range? Healing? Buffing? Social encounters? Piloting? There's just too much ground to cover unless you can narrow down what you're trying to do.

To give you examples of how to optimize for specific goals/objective functions

If you're trying to make a generic movie jedi then either jedi:padawan/knight (in rise of the separatists) or consular:niman-disciple/knight.

If you're trying to make the ultimate badass (in terms of damage output as opposed to an critical hit insta kill build) with a lightsaber, then seeker:ataru-striker/sage with knight as the third spec.

If you're trying to make a jedi character who is good not best at "everything" (i.e. shooting for the knee of the pareto frontier) then I'd recommend warrior:steel hand adept/knight/niman disciple... starting with steel hand adept qualifies you for the unmatched ferocity signature ability, which once per session lets you match the damage output of ataru striker unarmed parry makes parrying 1 strain cheaper and can be used if you have one hand free, it also gets you a rank of parry and precision strike (which lets you defeat enemies without killing them) and helps with movement. After the third spec you'd have 4 force ratings, 3 dedications which is a pareto optimal combination of dedications and force rating talents (3 of each from the 3 specs), the niman-disciple's draw-closer talent boosts your chances of hitting with subsequent hits of unmatched ferocity (but it doesn't make non engaged characters legal targets of unmatched ferocity), ebb/flow helps with strain cost. Niman-disciple also provides 2 ranks of defensive training which decreases the odds of getting hit, couple that with the full defense upgrade of the sense force power and one instance of dodge from steel hand adept, someone trying to melee (includes brawl and lightsaber) attack you is facing 2 red 1 purple and 2 black before you count armor, for armor I'd recomend reinforced clothing with zero upgrades and the armor inserts fro cyphers and masks fully modded, and wear concealing robes on top of that. The fully modded armor inserts means 2 soak, and 2 defense, with superior armor customization that's 3 soak from armor, assuming brawn 3 that's 6 soak, and incoming melee attacks with all the previous caveats would face 2 red, 1 purple, and 4 black, which is very good defensive capabilities in a stealth package.

If you want a force sensitive but otherwise stereotypical smuggler, then sentinel:racer/sage is a good way to start (I'd recommend the pantoran species for that build).

If you want a force wizard and don't care about lightsabers, then consular:sage/seer/ascetic

If you want a force wizard and you do care about lightsabers then consular:sage/niman-disciple/ascetic (take those specs in any order) or consular:sage/knight/ascetic (sage or ascetic is first), and in either of those you could replace sage or ascetic with seer

And there is an almost limitless set of goals that you could be shooting for as well as varying constraints.

To me it feels like the Padawan and knight are designed to represent these titles during the rise of the separatist, when Jedi knew they would fight more than Jedi of the past. So they have more combat talents on the trees to help prepare them for the war that is going on. During the 1000 years of peace time I imagine the trees foe these 2 roles would be different.

So I think these are 2 very strong trees to start a character with, but their talent focus is combat. If you pick the original tress you are more likely to end up career skills and talents. So there is no best tree, it should all depend on your characters background. If you are in a time after order 66 then you probably shouldnt be able to have these.

Based upon all of @EliasWindrider ‘s suggestions, he’s really fond of Niman Disciple as a spec. I won’t touch it with a ten meter pole. Canonically, Niman is the weakest lightsaber form in terms of combat effectiveness. All of the Niman users at the Battle of Geonosis were killed. Give me Soresu, Ataru, or Shien any day.

23 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Based upon all of @EliasWindrider ‘s suggestions, he’s really fond of Niman Disciple as a spec. I won’t touch it with a ten meter pole. Canonically, Niman is the weakest lightsaber form in terms of combat effectiveness. All of the Niman users at the Battle of Geonosis were killed. Give me Soresu, Ataru, or Shien any day.

These are if then statements, if you choose x as your objective functions then a way to optimize FOR THAT OBJECTIVE FUNCTION is y.

Given the objective function of a force wizard who also cares about lightsabers and a constraint of 3 specs (the upper end of most campaigns), niman is the only lightsaber form spec that fits because it's the only one with a force rating talent, the next best option in knight but the force assault talent tips the balance in favor of niman disciple FOR THAT OBJECTIVE FUNCTION.

Given the objective function of a generic jedi in 2 specs, the two best options are padawn/knight and niman-disciple/knight. Padawan is the fastest (least xp) route to knight (with has fr2 as a prerequisite) and niman disciple grants more lightsaber badassery than padawan. Also as noted above it's the only lightsaber form that has a force rating talent, so all the others are eliminated by the 2 spec requirement. Also niman was the most common lightsaber form at the time so it fits.

Given objective objective function of good at as much as possible in 3 specs. So 3 dedications and 3 force rating talents are part of that, again it's the only lightsaber form spec that grants a force rating talent, so there aren't a lot of options, and it's better than sentry and the other lightsaber lite specs (e.g sentry, armorer, padawan, padawan survivor) also the lightsaber capability comes from all 3 specs and the synergy between them... in that combo niman disciple is there to get you the greatest chance of additional hits from unmatched ferocity (thanks to draw closer which lets you roll force die and spend fp to add successes) and knight is there to patch the deficiencies of niman-disciple. Niman disciple is also the best self defense spec by the numbers.... 2 ranks of defensive training adding dice is more beneficial than upgrading dice and it doesn't cost strain or maneuvers to activate. So again given the objective function it is OBJECTIVELY a good combo.

You seemed to be accusing me of being biased in favor of niman-disciple but OBJECTIVELY it is a good way to optimize FOR THOSE OBJECTIVE FUNCTIONS. Your proclamation of not being willing to touch it with a 10 foot pole for any reason/objective function shows that you are the biased one.

But do you care to put your money where your mouth is by an exhibition match duel between our 2000 xp characters for the jedi star campaign? To make this "fair" (so Elias doesn't squash Korath with move) force talents but not force powers are on the table (i will forgo using force assault)

I disagree. If I want a "lightsaber badass" I'd take any lightsaber spec other than Niman. Niman is not what I would consider "lightsaber badass". Niman was not the "most common" lightsaber form. It was the one that non-combat focused Jedi Consulars tended to use, and was a "little bit" of all of the other forms mashed together. The combat focused Jedi, AKA your true "lightsaber badasses", trained in mastering Shi-Cho, Soresu, Makeshi, Ataru, or Shien, not Niman. Niman is for those Jedi who focus more on diplomacy. That's why it's knolw as the "diplomat's form".

31 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. If I want a "lightsaber badass" I'd take any lightsaber spec other than Niman. Niman is not what I would consider "lightsaber badass". Niman was not the "most common" lightsaber form. It was the one that non-combat focused Jedi Consulars tended to use, and was a "little bit" of all of the other forms mashed together. The combat focused Jedi, AKA your true "lightsaber badasses", trained in mastering Shi-Cho, Soresu, Makeshi, Ataru, or Shien, not Niman. Niman is for those Jedi who focus more on diplomacy. That's why it's knolw as the "diplomat's form".

What the heck's that got anything to do with the game mechanics?

6 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

What the heck's that got anything to do with the game mechanics?

Everything.

51 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. If I want a "lightsaber badass" I'd take any lightsaber spec other than Niman. Niman is not what I would consider "lightsaber badass". Niman was not the "most common" lightsaber form. It was the one that non-combat focused Jedi Consulars tended to use, and was a "little bit" of all of the other forms mashed together. The combat focused Jedi, AKA your true "lightsaber badasses", trained in mastering Shi-Cho, Soresu, Makeshi, Ataru, or Shien, not Niman. Niman is for those Jedi who focus more on diplomacy. That's why it's knolw as the "diplomat's form".

That doesn't really play out in the mechanics though. Niman is a really solid combat lightsaber form in this game. If you want to import all sorts of legends canon material and setting supposition into your analysis that's fine but most others do not so expect to be disregarded in this. And as Elias patiently laid out, mechanically he's correct.

1 hour ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I disagree. If I want a "lightsaber badass" I'd take any lightsaber spec other than Niman. Niman is not what I would consider "lightsaber badass". Niman was not the "most common" lightsaber form. It was the one that non-combat focused Jedi Consulars tended to use, and was a "little bit" of all of the other forms mashed together. The combat focused Jedi, AKA your true "lightsaber badasses", trained in mastering Shi-Cho, Soresu, Makeshi, Ataru, or Shien, not Niman. Niman is for those Jedi who focus more on diplomacy. That's why it's knolw as the "diplomat's form".

To expand a bit, if you want to insist on the movies as a precise template for this game and also insist on things not stated in the Attack of the Clones like Consular being an actual thing in the Jedi order (this is not stated in canon anywhere as far as I know) and that most of those Jedi who responded to Geonosis were "Consulars" you're still left with the assumption that many of them had enough training in Niman to be considered having had taken the Niman Specialization. There's no reason to assume this. They may have just as easily bought up a rank or 2 in Lightsaber to count for "I'm trained in Lightsaber use". You'd also have to assume that not only were most of these Jedi "Consulars" but that all/most started in Niman instead of other Specializations. That's a lot of poorly based assumptions.

In other words, you simply cannot consider Jedi getting killed/defeated on Geonosis as some grand display of the Niman style that acts as judge/jury/executioner on the use and effectiveness of the style.

24 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

To expand a bit, if you want to insist on the movies as a precise template for this game and also insist on things not stated in the Attack of the Clones like Consular being an actual thing in the Jedi order (this is not stated in canon anywhere as far as I know) and that most of those Jedi who responded to Geonosis were "Consulars" you're still left with the assumption that many of them had enough training in Niman to be considered having had taken the Niman Specialization. There's no reason to assume this. They may have just as easily bought up a rank or 2 in Lightsaber to count for "I'm trained in Lightsaber use". You'd also have to assume that not only were most of these Jedi "Consulars" but that all/most started in Niman instead of other Specializations. That's a lot of poorly based assumptions.

In other words, you simply cannot consider Jedi getting killed/defeated on Geonosis as some grand display of the Niman style that acts as judge/jury/executioner on the use and effectiveness of the style.

Canonically, everyone at Geonosis who specialized in Niman was killed in that battle. This is because, as a pure lightsaber form it is weak compared to the other forms. It takes a little from each but doesn’t excel at anything. That’s canon. From a game mechanics standpoint, the only benefit that Niman has over any other form is the additional Force Rating. Soresu is far better at defense, Makeshi is far better at single combat, Ataru is far better at offense, Shien is far better at blaster deflection and counterattack, Shi-Cho is better at dealing with multiple opponents, etc. Niman doesn’t excel at any of these. As such, as a pure lightsaber form it is not as good as any of the others. It’s a compromise form that is mediocre at everything designed for those who focus more of Force use than lightsaber combat. And as such, relies on heavy use of the Force to cover for its shortcomings in actual use of the lightsaber itself.

3 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Canonically, everyone at Geonosis who specialized in Niman was killed in that battle. This is because, as a pure lightsaber form it is weak compared to the other forms. It takes a little from each but doesn’t excel at anything. That’s canon. From a game mechanics standpoint, the only benefit that Niman has over any other form is the additional Force Rating. Soresu is far better at defense, Makeshi is far better at single combat, Ataru is far better at offense, Shien is far better at blaster deflection and counterattack, Shi-Cho is better at dealing with multiple opponents, etc. Niman doesn’t excel at any of these. As such, as a pure lightsaber form it is not as good as any of the others. It’s a compromise form that is mediocre at everything designed for those who focus more of Force use than lightsaber combat. And as such, relies on heavy use of the Force to cover for its shortcomings in actual use of the lightsaber itself.

Canon? No. The novelization? Is that what you're pinning this on?

Regardless, you ignored my main point. Who says that even the "Consular" Jedi there had in depth training in any lightsaber style? Yet you hold it up as definitive that Niman is weak.

Ok, then you get into actual mechanics!

As you highlight, each style has strengths and trade-offs compared to the others.

Shi-cho doesn't get you any Reflect (so we can perhaps assume all the Jedi who died on Geonosis as only being trained in Shi-cho). Makashi doesn't have any Parry. So considering these lightsaber combatant choices superior assumes a lot about the kinds of opponents you're going to be fighting. And if your GM mixes it up then, if we're speaking strictly within-style here, you're going to be forgoing the biggest defensive option Jedi have as a result of your style choice. Some might call that a weakness and that it might play into the ranking of what's weakest.

Ataru is better at single combat than Makashi in my opinion - it's one of the most combat effective specializations in the game of any of the 3 lines. Saber Swarm and Hawkbat Swoop are amazing.

Soresu is best at defense, but it's worse on offense than Niman. And Niman is still solid on defense.

Dedication and Force Rating in the same tree? That's also powerful unless your vision of "focused on lightsaber combat" means you're going to ignore your Force Rating.

Having a "balanced" style doesn't mean it's weak or even weakest. Throwing force points into generating success is potent (on top of moving the target closer). Having a mix of offensive and defensive capability does make for a strong combatant.

It's not the style you'd prefer to pick because it's the weakest in your estimation but that's not because of a strictly mechanical analysis - it's because of all the trade-offs involved you find it has the worse trade-offs for what you want very narrowly defined. Which is fine, it's how we all make decisions. But someone else can look at it and see it as being a powerful lightsaber style that offers more than the others (as either just a lightsaber style or a solid lightsaber style that sets up being great at other things too)

1 hour ago, Jedi Ronin said:

Canon? No. The novelization? Is that what you're pinning this on?

Regardless, you ignored my main point. Who says that even the "Consular" Jedi there had in depth training in any lightsaber style? Yet you hold it up as definitive that Niman is weak.

Ok, then you get into actual mechanics!

As you highlight, each style has strengths and trade-offs compared to the others.

Shi-cho doesn't get you any Reflect (so we can perhaps assume all the Jedi who died on Geonosis as only being trained in Shi-cho). Makashi doesn't have any Parry. So considering these lightsaber combatant choices superior assumes a lot about the kinds of opponents you're going to be fighting. And if your GM mixes it up then, if we're speaking strictly within-style here, you're going to be forgoing the biggest defensive option Jedi have as a result of your style choice. Some might call that a weakness and that it might play into the ranking of what's weakest.

Ataru is better at single combat than Makashi in my opinion - it's one of the most combat effective specializations in the game of any of the 3 lines. Saber Swarm and Hawkbat Swoop are amazing.

Soresu is best at defense, but it's worse on offense than Niman. And Niman is still solid on defense.

Dedication and Force Rating in the same tree? That's also powerful unless your vision of "focused on lightsaber combat" means you're going to ignore your Force Rating.

Having a "balanced" style doesn't mean it's weak or even weakest. Throwing force points into generating success is potent (on top of moving the target closer). Having a mix of offensive and defensive capability does make for a strong combatant.

It's not the style you'd prefer to pick because it's the weakest in your estimation but that's not because of a strictly mechanical analysis - it's because of all the trade-offs involved you find it has the worse trade-offs for what you want very narrowly defined. Which is fine, it's how we all make decisions. But someone else can look at it and see it as being a powerful lightsaber style that offers more than the others (as either just a lightsaber style or a solid lightsaber style that sets up being great at other things too)

First, Makashi does too have Parry. In fact, with five ranks , it has more ranks of Parry than any other single lightsaber spec. Soresu and Shii-Cho come close with four ranks each, followed by Ataru and Niman with three, and Shien with the fewest with only two. What Makashi lacks is ranks in Reflect , which is wholly appropriate given its focus on one on one dueling.

Niman is “OK” at a lot of different things but doesn’t excel at anything. There is a difference between being “OK”, and actually being good at something. Niman was designed for Jedi who focus more on diplomacy and Force use at the expense of skill with a lightsaber. If a Jedi wants to be really good at the lightsaber he would seek to master Shii-Cho and Soresu, and Makashi, and Ataru, and Shien/Djem-So. This is what your greatest Battle Masters did. Niman is for those Jedi who only need to know a little about the different aspects of lightsaber combat, just enough to get by while they focus on the Force or on diplomacy. This is why Niman has so many Force use talents (particularly telekinetic talents) as opposed to simply Force talents. It relies on telekinesis and other Force powers rather than pure skill in the lightsaber. If a Soresu master really wants more offensive capability and higher Force Rating, he can delve into Padawan and Knight, or Sentry. If he simply wants more offense, combining Soresu with Ataru makes for great synergy.

Obviously I meant that Makashi lacked Reflect.

And you didn’t really address my point but just reaffirmed it.

My point is that Niman isn’t so much “balanced” as it is mediocre. It isn’t very good at anything. That’s not balance. That’s half-hearted . It’s not committing or mastering the weapon. It’s dabbling . And this is coming from a player who plays a “Jack of all trades” Jedi. Basically a Niman user knows just enough about the various aspects of lightsaber combat to get himself into trouble.

Aa for Makashi lacking Reflect; as I already said, Makashi is focused on one on one lightsaber duels , not blaster deflection, which is where Shien shines. However, a Makashi Duelist is absolutely deadly in a one on one duel against another lightsaber wielder.

In think it’s balanced (which is its own advantage over some other styles).

You think it’s half hearted.

Like I said: you don’t value it’s trade offs and others do. It’s not mechanically inferior. It’s trade offs aren’t worth it for you if the goal is a lightsaber focused character. It is for others who evaluate/value those trade offs differently.

Which is why Elias included it. And why it’s potentially of value for the original question.

8 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

In think it’s balanced (which is its own advantage over some other styles).

You think it’s half hearted.

Like I said: you don’t value it’s trade offs and others do. It’s not mechanically inferior. It’s trade offs aren’t worth it for you if the goal is a lightsaber focused character. It is for others who evaluate/value those trade offs differently.

Which is why Elias included it. And why it’s potentially of value for the original question.

Elias chooses Niman for everything as if it’s the end-all-be-all of lightsaber form specs because it grants an increase in Force Rating. That’s my problem with his claims in his post.

I should clarify. I think Niman can be a good choice if your focus is lightsaber combat. It has its own trade-offs like all styles do. I don’t think it’s mechanically inferior. It may be inferior depending on the trade offs you’re looking for, and if Force Rating isn’t appealing for what it does for you as a saber practitioner then it may be inferior for what you want in particular (though it can do some good things within the spec).

It is described as less combat focused as other styles in the description I don’t agree that the mechanics necessarily back that up.

10 minutes ago, Jedi Ronin said:

I should clarify. I think Niman can be a good choice if your focus is lightsaber combat. It has its own trade-offs like all styles do. I don’t think it’s mechanically inferior. It may be inferior depending on the trade offs you’re looking for, and if Force Rating isn’t appealing for what it does for you as a saber practitioner then it may be inferior for what you want in particular (though it can do some good things within the spec).

It is described as less combat focused as other styles in the description I don’t agree that the mechanics necessarily back that up.

And that’s fine. I do believe that the mechanics do back up the description, given how a lot of the talents involve the (watered down) use of Force powers, such as Move, in order to “support” the lightsaber, rather than actually making the user better with the lightsaber itself.

However, there’s a difference between saying that the style has its benefits and trade-offs, and claiming that it’s the greatest lightsaber spec there is, and should always be taken if you want to create the “perfect Jedi”, which is what Elias claims, and has done so many times in the past.

Niman is mechanically the best lightsaber form at self defense against melee attacks in a one at one duel.

Soresu is mechanically the best at self defense against melee attacks from multiple opponents.

Why. Niman has 2 ranks of defensive training and adding dice is better than upgrading dice (soresu's 2 ranks of defensive stance), I'll get to despairs in a minute. Defensive stance also costs a maneuver and 2 strain if you want to use both ranks of defensive stance.

So soresu starts with worse defense, down a maneuver, and out 2 strain compared to niman

Soresu has 4 ranks of parry vs niman's 3 so that roughly evens out the defense difference, but soresu is still down 2 strain and a maneuver

But soresu has supreme parry which lets you pay 1 strain instead of 3 if you don't attack... so strain cost is 3 per round each assuming 1 successful incoming attack, but soresu has to pay 2 upfront and only 1 is conditional on a successful incoming attack whereas the niman disciple pays 0 strain if there is a successful attack. So niman is ahead on strain and gets to make an attack each round while soresu doesn't. On the plus side the action not spent on attacking makes up for the lost maneuver

But soresu gets improved parry which is only going to trigger when niman scores an attack and a despair is rolled, thanks to soresu's 2 ranks of defensive stance there is a conditional probability of about 1/6 that soresu will get to use improved parry.

So soresu gets to dish out damage 1/6 as often as niman disciple, however the soresu defender is only dealing base damage and the niman disciple is dealing base plus successes plus white pips from 2 force dice.

Conclusion: niman has the best defense in a one on one duel. Soresu is king of the hill at defending against multiple attackers (niman is second best in that category) and can defend adjacent allies but anyone who picks up knight can defend allies better than a soresu defender.

Niman is also the best lightsaber form for succeeding on a lightsaber attack thanks to draw closers ability to add successes.

So the game mechanics make niman disciple much more of a lightsaber badass than soresu defender. But previously took that statement out of context... the previous context was comparing niman disciple to any lightsaber (not just form) spec that provided a force rating, so niman is in that context not being compared to any other form spec (because none of the other forms have the force rating talent) so was being compared to the likes of padawan, sentry, and armorer. Note knight has a prequisite of 2 force ratings, and infact taking a spec with a force rating talent so you could qualify for knight as your second spec was the reason for only considering lightsaber specs with a force rating. In the restricted case of legal first spec lightsaber specs with a force rating talent... niman disciple is the most badass hands down.

26 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And that’s fine. I do believe that the mechanics do back up the description, given how a lot of the talents involve the (watered down) use of Force powers, such as Move, in order to “support” the lightsaber, rather than actually making the user better with the lightsaber itself.

However, there’s a difference between saying that the style has its benefits and trade-offs, and claiming that it’s the greatest lightsaber spec there is, and should always be taken if you want to create the “perfect Jedi”, which is what Elias claims, and has done so many times in the past.

I've never claimed niman was the best lightsaber spec there is, ataru is hands down the best, I have claimed that niman was the second best lightsaber form spec and it provided a lot of other benefits, which means it good in combinations with other specs for "good at a lot of thing builds".

Having willpower as a primary stat also means you'll be good at force powers and resisting them and good at initiative because of vigilance. And going first can't mean that you're the only one who gets to attack in a duel.

The only other lightsaber form spec that competes with niman in terms of versatility is ataru striker, because agility is used for stealth, piloting, and shooting.

Niman relies too much on Force powered talents, such as Draw Closer, whereas none of the other specs do. Take away the use of telekinesis, and the Niman user is screwed. That’s my issue with your claiming it’s the best lightsaber spec. It’s not. And this is because it uses Force Powers as a crutch to make up for its lack of pure lightsaber training.

1 minute ago, EliasWindrider said:

I've never claimed niman was the best lightsaber spec there is, ataru is hands down the best, I have claimed that niman was the second best lightsaber form spec and it provided a lot of other benefits, which means it good in combinations with other specs for "good at a lot of thing builds".

Having willpower as a primary stat also means you'll be good at force powers and resisting them and good at initiative because of vigilance.

The only other lightsaber form spec that competes with niman in terms of versatility is ataru striker, because agility is used for stealth, piloting, and shooting.

Those “benefits” rely too much on Force powers, such as telekinesis, rather than the lightsaber itself. That is why I say it is the weakest lightsaber form, both canonically and mechanically. Take away a Niman user’s use of the Force and he’s done for. None of the other lightsaber specs rely So heavily on Force powers.

3 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Niman relies too much on Force powered talents, such as Draw Closer, whereas none of the other specs do. Take away the use of telekinesis, and the Niman user is screwed. That’s my issue with your claiming it’s the best lightsaber spec. It’s not. And this is because it uses Force Powers as a crutch to make up for its lack of pure lightsaber training.

And how do you take away telekinesis?

And it’s not a crutch. It’s part of the style. Using the Force while fighting is not some crutch mechanically or narratively. The other lightsaber form specs have talents that call on the Force as well, explicitly called out Force talents and each one has one that lets you use your Force Rating. Is that a crutch for them? Niman’s increases chance to hit and damage as part of using a lightsaber. Narratively that means that the user is using the Force to push/pull/manipulate the opponent off balance or whatever but it’s actually integrated into a lightsaber attack.

And if you want to claim that “oops, I missed on my lightsaber atttack, I guess I’ll throw that Bantha at you for a Maneuver this turn too “ is a crutch because you didn’t exclusively use a lightsaber then go ahead but it’s pretty pedantic.