1 hour ago, Estarriol said:

I bet it’s not the auto-win you seem to think it is.

That's the takeaway you got from the discussion here?

If it turns out to be a difficult list to perform with, then what is the problem? Then you simply find a way to take Jake out, get half points on Han, split your fire so you get at least one shot on Han while he spends all his shields on Inertial Dampeners etc.

If a pilot had an ability that read "after setup, you must flip a coin - on a heads, you win the game, on a tails, you lose.", it would be miserable and ruin every event it showed up to.

But it would virtually never win an event with a top cut.

40 minutes ago, kris40k said:

According to GSP he also diced a guy when a blocked Jake took 0 damage from 3 Phantom shots and then won on points 25-0 where he should have* lost.

*variance happens

I mean, if all his games were like that, sure. But I just don't see a lot of 200-0 wins this edition, and certainly not from a list that people are arguing has the weaknesses that it is "low firepower."

4 hours ago, kris40k said:

Sense finally has value?

I think sense is a much better card with the release of republic, but Han still doesn't really care.

I just want to state for the record that my opinion about Kanan Inertial Fat Han in X-Wing the miniatures game does not at all reflect my opinions about Han Solo the beloved Star Wars Character, Hero, and Cool Guy.

4 hours ago, Tlfj200 said:

Maybe the solution is to boil this into quick pictures.

The problem of every turn: Opponent staring at Han, thinking of where he could go, and Han staring back:

Sooo...which one is Han?

Or the millenium falcon.

1 minute ago, Phelan Boots said:

Sooo...which one is Han?

🐈

1 minute ago, Boom Owl said:

🐈

Really, cause I thought that would be my face trying to figure out where Stone Cold Samuel Jackson Han is going to end up. Ambiguous memes could be the new rorshak tests of our generation.

27 minutes ago, AlexW said:

I think sense is a much better card with the release of republic, but Han still doesn't really care.

Eh, with half decent situational awareness skills you should have been able to set a dial to be within barrel roll range to block a large base whatever he likely dialed in, with Sense sealing the deal, leaving him only 4 places (stop, stop + boost) to be besides blocked.

Since hes going to be burning his Force regen on Kanan's anti-stress, hes not going to have Force to mod shots or Luke after the first time he burns the 2nd token, but he still has his Han re-roll.

If he's blocked, you're down one shot, but he can't Boost or Evade, so no Falcon title, if he Luke Gunners to get a shot, then no mods other than his Han re-roll if near-bye obstacles (likely).

If he hard stops, he has to burn Force to dump stress, and then if he Boosts, no Evade, no title, no mods 'cept Han reroll.

I mean, Sense and Informant are faction agnostic, Seismics, faction specific you have Cassian Andor, Snoke, Death Troopers, Seventh Sister Crew, just off the top of my head there are plenty of things that can just screw the list. The meta can adjust.

24 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

That's the takeaway you got from the discussion here?

Well, you’re either moaning that it’s OP or an NPE, it’s hard to tell which. I just struggle to see where you’re coming from. Pretty much everyone ever played a Falcon with EU in 1.0. All Falcons can boost in 2.0. Kanan could still help a falcon do crazy things in 1.0. Kanan can still do it in 2.0. R2 crew has been a thing on Han since Heaver’s second Worlds victory. Being able to shoot in any direction just turns it into a 1.0 turret at the expense of having a Force point for mods. ID is literally the only new thing here and it’s not that hard to manage. Unless your opponent is Jack Moony or Nathan Eide it really isn’t that scary.

4 juking phantoms is a much more powerful list that has a better game against all comers. Pretty much everything with VTG and a native primary arc. Heck, T-65 Luke’s infinite force. There’s always something to complain about, but until I see nine of them in a top cut I really don’t think we need to worry.

41 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

Well, you’re either moaning that it’s OP or an NPE, it’s hard to tell which. I just struggle to see where you’re coming from. Pretty much everyone ever played a Falcon with EU in 1.0. All Falcons can boost in 2.0. Kanan could still help a falcon do crazy things in 1.0. Kanan can still do it in 2.0. R2 crew has been a thing on Han since Heaver’s second Worlds victory. Being able to shoot in any direction just turns it into a 1.0 turret at the expense of having a Force point for mods. ID is literally the only new thing here and it’s not that hard to manage. Unless your opponent is Jack Moony or Nathan Eide it really isn’t that scary.

Woah, woah, woah. Inertial Dampeners is definitely a relatively new development here. But everything you just mentioned about "not being a new thing" are SPECIFICALLY things that Second Edition was supposed to get rid of. Right?

Boosting large bases? Well, my Decimator is sad, but Han gets to keep on squeaking out of arcs.

R2-D2 crew? We've seen R2 Astromech and R2-D2 Astromech have high costs for regen (weapons disabled token) along with charges that limit the amount of times they can get shields back.

Being able to shoot any direction? Come on. Literally EVERY ship in the game moved to the mobile arc mechanic (now called "turret" in 2.0) specifically because the 360 degree area of firing was oppressive. Moreso now because Luke is limited to a single faction.

Yes, this version of Han is virtually unchanged from previous versions in First Edition. But that's what makes them so out of place. Look, I was with you, Estarriol. When I first heard about it I thought, "Gosh, can these people ever stop whining about whatever wins a big tournament?!" But I did some research and some introspection, and I'm not pleased with what I see. As I said before, it acts like it's from a completely different game.

I added a part that I think is worth pointing out:

Quote

The most important question when talking about an NPE is then to figure out whether or not one player has any agency left, whether they can still cause forced errors or not, whether the one player with the NPE-list has moved into linear strategy or not. And this is a tricky question that requires a lot of effort to demonstrate to players who have not experienced such a game. Players who can't or won't think and play and test through the options that are left. In the end, those who experience something as NPE have to demonstrate why the others, too, should feel miserable when playing against that NPE list. That is not a statisfying task in any way or form, and "success" results in more people feeling miserable.

That is the reason why I'm personally disliking these discussions - they feel like a lose-lose situation to me. And yet I see the inert fat Han as large enough NPE to say so.

1 hour ago, Estarriol said:

Well, you’re either moaning that it’s OP or an NPE, it’s hard to tell which. I just struggle to see where you’re coming from. Pretty much everyone ever played a Falcon with EU in 1.0. All Falcons can boost in 2.0. Kanan could still help a falcon do crazy things in 1.0. Kanan can still do it in 2.0. R2 crew has been a thing on Han since Heaver’s second Worlds victory. Being able to shoot in any direction just turns it into a 1.0 turret at the expense of having a Force point for mods.

You're right, it IS almost exactly like 1E YT-1300. Incidentally, that's exactly why I want it fixed immediately. Fat turrets were one of the things I hated most about 1E, and why I was on the verge of quitting before 2E was announced.

12 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

You're right, it IS almost exactly like 1E YT-1300. Incidentally, that's exactly why I want it fixed immediately. Fat turrets were one of the things I hated most about 1E, and why I was on the verge of quitting before 2E was announced.

It´s Luke gunner who makes it a 1st edition turret ship. Is he the problem rather than Kanan?

1 minute ago, Sixter said:

It´s Luke gunner who makes it a 1st edition turret ship. Is he the problem rather than Kanan?

Not really. Slightly nerfing the arc to butterfly doesn't really offset everything else.

Luke costs a million points. He’s fine. If you remove Kanan the whole thing just falls apart.

But in all honestly, Han in 1e was hardly running the meta at the end. Also, many characters kept their abilities. Fenn, Talonbane, Boba, Emon, Howlrunner, Turr, Wedge, this is nearly endless. Why hate on just the one?

There is literally no way that this Han is worse for the game than quad Phantom or 4/5 y-wings.

17 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

Also, many characters kept their abilities. Why hate on just the one?

Whoa there. Han didn't keep his ability, Han got a massively upgraded version of his ability. He went from rerolling attack dice to rerolling attack, defense, crit cards, obstacles, R2-D2 crew, bombs, and literally any other reason he would ever roll dice that I forgot to mention. Sure you have to be at R1 of an obstacles which I think didn't happen... once out of my last 3 games with him?

17 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

There is literally no way that this Han is worse for the game than quad Phantom or 4/5 y-wings

They can all be bad for the game. No one is saying fix Fat Han but leave Phantoms alone

5 hours ago, Estarriol said:

Well, you’re either moaning that it’s OP or an NPE, it’s hard to tell which. I just struggle to see where you’re coming from. Pretty much everyone ever played a Falcon with EU in 1.0. All Falcons can boost in 2.0. Kanan could still help a falcon do crazy things in 1.0. Kanan can still do it in 2.0. R2 crew has been a thing on Han since Heaver’s second Worlds victory. Being able to shoot in any direction just turns it into a 1.0 turret at the expense of having a Force point for mods. ID is literally the only new thing here and it’s not that hard to manage. Unless your opponent is Jack Moony or Nathan Eide it really isn’t that scary.

4 juking phantoms is a much more powerful list that has a better game against all comers. Pretty much everything with VTG and a native primary arc. Heck, T-65 Luke’s infinite force. There’s always something to complain about, but until I see nine of them in a top cut I really don’t think we need to worry.

Ok.

10 hours ago, AgentoftheEmpire said:

....I feel these forums have an uncanny way of blowing things way out of proportion sometimes.

But, THaTS nO mOoN!!!!!!!!!

It's a ....

3 hours ago, Sixter said:

It´s Luke gunner who makes it a 1st edition turret ship. Is he the problem rather than Kanan?

Dampners.

10 hours ago, AlexW said:

I would very much encourage anyone that has this opinion to a) play against it, or b) at least listen to Tyler's discussion on Mynock about it if you haven't. Tyler was flying four phantoms, which has a lot of the counters people are proposing. Tyler does a good job of explaining the issues even though he won, and he's playing a list that's also arguable "broken" in ways most 2nd edition lists aren't (which he explains). For now, I'll just say that for those that are using blocking as a tactic, there are times that Han is just fine being blocked and its actually to his advantage.

This is what people aren’t getting. He doesn’t need actions. Jake can give him a focus. Luke can point any direction he wants. Han can reroll anything he wants. He can decide pretty much where he wants to move with full board knowledge, unless someone manages to outbid him.

It’s the movement one that bothers me the most. Han isn’t playing the same game as everyone else. He is pretty much playing with dials face up.

A lot of this build I am ok with, it’s the crew ID interaction that’s a bother

Had a good game with 5 Omega Squadron Experts FCS and Fanatical which tore Han up when I played it upstate last week. I spent one round locking him with 5 ships, took 3 damage on one, (which activated fanatical) dropped 5 damage on Han, who took another round of 3 damage the next round to be half pointed, and the rest of the time was trying Han dodging all my arcs while I just chose evade. I lost one tie sf the whole game and another was half pointed. Jake was a non factor cause he couldn't afford to be focus fired. I didn't know it was that good of a list at the time... I thought it was a terrible at first but when you read more about it, I guess it comes down to the match ups. One guy who I consider to be one of the best players I've ever seen (worlds level) tried it out at weeknight this week, he didn't seem too impressed and I trust his judgment.

Against aces, which are seeing a lot of play right now, I could see peeps not liking it though. Maybe Han needs to be the hammer though in the game, you know? Lots of swarms around and it's better than facing a bunch of boring ywing spam 😁

26 minutes ago, Bucknife said:

Dampners.

@Sixter ^ More specifically the combination of Kanan and the Illicit (which is in effect a charge based, using shields as charges, reactive white stop) is the core of the build that is causing the issue. The rest of the upgrades either refine it (R2-D2 converting the interaction from a non-recurring charge based to recurring charge based), or boost it's ease and efficiency (Engine Upgrade permitting a stressless boost, and Luke Gunner allowing the retention of a soft mod or a reactive arc rotate to counter arc dodging). Throw Han's ability in (which greatly reduces the likelihood of negative consequences from R2's ability, acts as a pseudo recurring lock and a counter to attacker's modding his green dice due to it's FAQ'd timing) with just the core, or core + R2 and you've got a ship you might kill in 75min. Toss on the others, and "might kill" turns into "might half point".

Blocking is iffy since you'll need as many red attacks as you can get and by blocking with even just 2 ships you'll likely have reduced your attacks on target by between 25% and 60%. You're also going to be being shot at by Han and whatever else is in the list, and against most lists that stand a fair chance at blocking him he will be shooting first and will at a minimum be soft modded for the attack.