...................This thread is one of many reasons I have a hard time taking these forums seriously. One week Sloane Swarms are the boogyman. Next week it is Resistance A-Wings. The week after that is is Yions. The weeks after that are Quad Phantoms. And now.....Fat Han?! I feel these forums have an uncanny way of blowing things way out of proportion sometimes.

Just now, AgentoftheEmpire said:

...................This thread is one of many reasons I have a hard time taking these forums seriously. One week Sloane Swarms are the boogyman. Next week it is Resistance A-Wings. The week after that is is Yions. The weeks after that are Quad Phantoms. And now.....Fat Han?! I feel these forums have an uncanny way of blowing things way out of proportion sometimes.

Ok.

4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Ok.

Just now, Boom Owl said:

Sorry, I cannot add any more reactions today.

But know that I would have.

2 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Sorry, I cannot add any more reactions today.

But know that I would have.

Added one for you.

5 minutes ago, Boom Owl said:

Um...

4 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Sorry, I cannot add any more reactions today.

But know that I would have.

^

1 minute ago, Micanthropyre said:

Added one for you.

/cheer

Maybe the solution is to boil this into quick pictures.

The problem of every turn: Opponent staring at Han, thinking of where he could go, and Han staring back:

Maybe I'm late to the party, but it looks like the 3 bank with a BR right and forward blocks the 4 Forward which cuts off half the movement options since he has to execute that before he can boost past. Then he either bumps and neither of you get shot, or he stops and you have arc on him, even if he boosts left or right.

In any case, since we are talking about 144pts of ship (as prev mentioned 2-4 ships worth), there should be multiple arcs here that can be put on him even if he bumps you. If he sheds the stress from stopping, he's -1 Force for defense and his R2 will be a wash for the shield damage from the dampeners. If you can force him to rotate his arc for a shot he'll be down the other Force token unless he doesn't Boost/Evade/etc.

We are also missing context of obstacles. He'll probably bring debris since he can shed the stress from it and still get actions, but yours can block off his escape lanes and prevent actions.

I think its a very nice build, and if flown by a good player who doesn't make mistakes it can do well, as it has posted results proves, but I don't think its an issue.

Did everyone forget how to play against SNR Vader and set up killboxes with multiple ships? This is a large base so its easier to block and less lane to play around with, but he does have the advantage of hitting a stop button and being able to effectively ignore debris.

3 minutes ago, Tlfj200 said:

Maybe the solution is to boil this into quick pictures.

The problem of every turn: Opponent staring at Han, thinking of where he could go, and Han staring back:

Sense finally has value?

1 minute ago, kris40k said:

Sense finally has value?

Meh?..?

This problem wasn't unforeseen but the Kanan ruling made it... terrifying.

I mean, there is some truth to the boogeyman of the week thing, all of those things can be extremely frustrating to play against. He missed triple upsilon which got emergency nerfed for NPE. That doesn't mean that any individual instance of that complaining is wrong.

However its ridiculous to think that discussing these things is "blowing it out of proportion" because uh, thats what forums are for.

17 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Did everyone forget how to play against SNR Vader and set up killboxes with multiple ships? This is a large base so its easier to block and less lane to play around with, but he does have the advantage of hitting a stop button and being able to effectively ignore debris.

No one forgot.

38 minutes ago, kris40k said:

Maybe I'm late to the party, but it looks like the 3 bank with a BR right and forward blocks the 4 Forward which cuts off half the movement options since he has to execute that before he can boost past. Then he either bumps and neither of you get shot, or he stops and you have arc on him, even if he boosts left or right.

In any case, since we are talking about 144pts of ship (as prev mentioned 2-4 ships worth), there should be multiple arcs here that can be put on him even if he bumps you. If he sheds the stress from stopping, he's -1 Force for defense and his R2 will be a wash for the shield damage from the dampeners. If you can force him to rotate his arc for a shot he'll be down the other Force token unless he doesn't Boost/Evade/etc.

We are also missing context of obstacles. He'll probably bring debris since he can shed the stress from it and still get actions, but yours can block off his escape lanes and prevent actions.

I think its a very nice build, and if flown by a good player who doesn't make mistakes it can do well, as it has posted results proves, but I don't think its an issue.

Did everyone forget how to play against SNR Vader and set up killboxes with multiple ships? This is a large base so its easier to block and less lane to play around with, but he does have the advantage of hitting a stop button and being able to effectively ignore debris.

I would very much encourage anyone that has this opinion to a) play against it, or b) at least listen to Tyler's discussion on Mynock about it if you haven't. Tyler was flying four phantoms, which has a lot of the counters people are proposing. Tyler does a good job of explaining the issues even though he won, and he's playing a list that's also arguable "broken" in ways most 2nd edition lists aren't (which he explains). For now, I'll just say that for those that are using blocking as a tactic, there are times that Han is just fine being blocked and its actually to his advantage.

I think infinitite white stop Han is on the same level of garbage as quad Phantoms, and I hope it's taken care of sooner rather than later.

If they don't, and we have to deal with it, I think the best tactic will be to keep your ships largely together. You don't want to let Han go 1v1 on anything, because that will almost always be in Han's favor. So spreading arcs to ensure a shot is probably bad unless you're trying to get to a key damage threshold. It's better to try and set things where to get any shots Han has to receive a lot of shots. If you're in a position where you've restricted some of his possible moves and you have 3+ ships in the roght position, you can try a "set block" where one ship blocks the end point of the suspected maneuver, one ship blocks a bit further up, and one ship is a bit further up from that. This means you keep Han in front of your ships no matter what if you called the correct position. I wouldn't expect more than one or two opportunities to do this, because Han wants pursuers on his flank, where they can't block, and where they have to commit to either the stop or the dialed maneuver. If you're stuck in this position, that's probably where you think about splitting arcs for a turn, because you might at least do one damage instead of nothing. That's very much a "make the best of a bad situation" tactic, not something you set up as Plan A.

6 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

I think infinitite white stop Han is on the same level of garbage as quad Phantoms, and I hope it's taken care of sooner rather than later.

If they don't, and we have to deal with it, I think the best tactic will be to keep your ships largely together. You don't want to let Han go 1v1 on anything, because that will almost always be in Han's favor. So spreading arcs to ensure a shot is probably bad unless you're trying to get to a key damage threshold. It's better to try and set things where to get any shots Han has to receive a lot of shots. If you're in a position where you've restricted some of his possible moves and you have 3+ ships in the roght position, you can try a "set block" where one ship blocks the end point of the suspected maneuver, one ship blocks a bit further up, and one ship is a bit further up from that. This means you keep Han in front of your ships no matter what if you called the correct position. I wouldn't expect more than one or two opportunities to do this, because Han wants pursuers on his flank, where they can't block, and where they have to commit to either the stop or the dialed maneuver. If you're stuck in this position, that's probably where you think about splitting arcs for a turn, because you might at least do one damage instead of nothing. That's very much a "make the best of a bad situation" tactic, not something you set up as Plan A.

Out of likes, have some bacon 🥓 🥓 🥓

9 minutes ago, AlexW said:

I would very much encourage anyone that has this opinion to a) play against it, or b) at least listen to Tyler's discussion on Mynock about it if you haven't. Tyler was flying four phantoms, which has a lot of the counters people are proposing. Tyler does a good job of explaining the issues even though he won, and he's playing a list that's also arguable "broken" in ways most 2nd edition lists aren't (which he explains). For now, I'll just say that for those that are using blocking as a tactic, there are times that Han is just fine being blocked and its actually to his advantage.

No, you just have to want it badly enough.

The Gold Squadron guys make a good observation about Jack becoming fortunate not to get the 4x K-wings (barrage rockets plus bombs) matchup out of the other semi-final.

They also predict the meta will adjust to the Han/Kanan/ID combo.

Somehow Han and Jake have to score some points to win. The damage output of the list is very low, especially if Jake does not get to outmaneuver. Jake by himself is pretty vulnerable if caught so he has to be careful and only moves at I4. Han better not get behind on points because he will have to expose himself if the opponent can start playing defensively.

31 minutes ago, Sixter said:

The Gold Squadron guys make a good observation about Jack becoming fortunate not to get the 4x K-wings (barrage rockets plus bombs) matchup out of the other semi-final.

They also predict the meta will adjust to the Han/Kanan/ID combo.

Somehow Han and Jake have to score some points to win. The damage output of the list is very low, especially if Jake does not get to outmaneuver. Jake by himself is pretty vulnerable if caught so he has to be careful and only moves at I4. Han better not get behind on points because he will have to expose himself if the opponent can start playing defensively.

Didn't the guy win a bunch of his games 200-0?

2 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Didn't the guy win a bunch of his games 200-0?

yep

33 minutes ago, AlexW said:

Didn't the guy win a bunch of his games 200-0?

The meta will adjust...

7 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Who said anything about overpowered? Whether or not he's OP has nothing to do with whether or not he fits the game.

Something like 4x Phantoms or 4x Y-Wings may be potent and frustrating to play against, but at least they still feel like X-Wing. The opponent has to decide on the right maneuvers and try to predict where I'll be to some degree. The guessing game is still there.

Being able to move last and with perfect knowledge while still being able to choose vastly different endpoints--as well as making arcs irrelevant--just raises the question of "why bother?" Whether I can beat it or not, why would I want to play against a list that's ignoring all the important parts of the game? I'm a casual player; I don't care about points or number of wins. I'm playing the game to have fun, and if this sort of garbage is making a return, we may as well have stuck with 1E.

And yet we all have different definitions of fun. Playing against four/five y-wings doesn’t feel like playing a game about manoeuvring and out-guessing your opponent. It feels like knowing exactly what your opponent is going to do, because you KNOW exactly what he’s going to do. And it’s boring. And it’s cheap. And it makes me want to claw my eyes out. 4 phantoms is similar but less so. Flying against Jake? Now that is an exciting game! Trying to catch a Falcon which is amongst the most manoeuvrable ships in the game? That’s challenging me, and it’s pretty much he plot of the original trilogy from the point of view of the Empire. Also, if he’s moving last with perfect knowledge take a large bid and PS6. Sorted.

What you find fun, I might not. So please don’t just assume what you like is the correct version of the game, As I said earlier, I challenge all of you to fly this list and win an event. I bet it’s not the auto-win you seem to think it is.

1 hour ago, AlexW said:

Didn't the guy win a bunch of his games 200-0?

According to GSP he also diced a guy when a blocked Jake took 0 damage from 3 Phantom shots and then won on points 25-0 where he should have* lost.

*variance happens

2 hours ago, Sixter said:

The  Gold Squadron guys make a good observation about Jack becoming fortunate not to  get the 4x K-wings (barrage rockets plus bo  mbs) matchup out of the other semi-final. 

I listened to the recent episode, too, and I thought that to be a particularly poor point. My reason is that they try to link performance with NPE. As repeatedly mention, the exact placement of Han in the cut does not matter one bit. 12-0, 11-1, to put any meaning into that difference is... strange.

4 hours ago, Boom Owl said:

No seriously, that was a serious question.

What if I lost the bid but could still just shoot the opponent's ace every turn? And can accept bumps and still move my arc?

1 hour ago, Estarriol said:

Now that is an exciting game! Trying to catch a Falcon which is amongst the most manoeuvrable ships in the game ?

This right here is precisely what's wrong with the design philosophy of the game. The Falcon 's pretty nimble for a craft its size, but it shouldn't be more maneuverable than purpose-built fighters.

1 hour ago, Estarriol said:

As I said earlier, I challenge all of you to fly this list and win an event. I bet it’s not the auto-win you seem to think it is.

Again, who said anything about it being an auto-win? It could be the worst list in the game and I would still fault FFG for enabling it to exist.