5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

The only 'toxicity' is willful ignorance being pointed out. For example, extended-list discussions include now the question how to beat Fat Han, and how to change builds to counter him. That means he warps the meta around him as people react to him. Ignoring that fact is not helpful for the discussion. To give just one example.

Luke is also a very highly skilled player who is quite well known. And yet it looked like he didn't play well, after making final table? Maybe that had something to do with the list he was facing?

I know Luke is an excellent player. They still have bad games though, especially after two long days of matches. I gave a reason which you conveniently ignored. There is good strong counterplay to this list, it just took everyone by surprise.

Again, almost everyone went after Jake, which makes no sense to me: You want the biggest gun, highest initiative, most points off the board, right?

3 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Again, almost everyone went after Jake, which makes no sense to me: You want the biggest gun, highest initiative, most points off the board, right?

It depends, I think. If you can focus-fire the big one down quickly, then sure. But if it's going to take a while, sometimes it's better to take out the little one quickly first, so it can't be a nuisance during the real fight.

5 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

It depends, I think. If you can focus-fire the big one down quickly, then sure. But if it's going to take a while, sometimes it's better to take out the little one quickly first, so it can't be a nuisance during the real fight.

And you don't want to get down a ship or so with Han running freely still above half.

13 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I  know Luke is an excellent player. They still have bad games though, especially after two long days of matches. I gave  a reason which you conveniently ignored. There is good strong counterplay to this list, it just took everyone by surprise. 

I didn't ignore it, I offered an alternative explanation. Your reason is that they had a bad game due to for example fatigue. If all players happen to have their bad game against this Han build, then maybe it is not a coincidence. See, directly connected to your point.

18 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Again  , almost everyone went after Jake, which makes no sense to me: You want the biggest gun, highest initiative, most points off the board, right? 

If it was possible to kill Han in 75min then you would be correct. Arguably that is not possible for quad phantoms specifically.

Another possible, valid strategy that was tried and failed is to get Jake early and then run to a place where you can force a favorable engagement.

Calling it a mistake and in doing so denying these players to be highly skilled and to know what they are doing in the last 3 rounds of the largest event ever, while also adamantly defending Jack's skill is... strange.

2 events. One week. Let it shake out.

The overreaction here is insane.

My work here is done.

Back to reddit I go.

5 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

Calling it a mistake and in doing so denying these players to be highly skilled and to know what they are doing in the last 3 rounds of the largest event ever, while also adamantly defending Jack's skill is... strange.

So much.

Just now, ClassicalMoser said:

Let it shake out.

Comments like this that imply you've mis-understood the argument, which is about fundamentally about game design, not balance.

3 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

2 events. One week. Let it shake out.

The overreaction here is insane.

My work here is done.

Back to reddit I go.

Are you not reading the thread? More than 2 events, and over the last month or so.

18 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

And there was , much rejoicing! Never offered an on topic rebuttal, so bye mate.

SSSSHHHHHH he might come back....

No, come on guys, let's not be like that. It would be more valuable if he would understand the point and reasoning behind.

2 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I know Luke is an excellent player. They still have bad games though, especially after two long days of matches. I gave a reason which you conveniently ignored. There is good strong counterplay to this list, it just took everyone by surprise.

Again, almost everyone went after Jake, which makes no sense to me: You want the biggest gun, highest initiative, most points off the board, right?

Going after Han is a massive trap. You pretty much CANT take him unless you get really really lucky and push a bad crit in. And while you try to focus on Han you’re taking fire from both his ships and bleed out twice as fast.

You want to turn your back on LW/Outmaneuver/Procket Jake? Rather you than me!

54 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

No, come on guys, let's not be like that. It would be more valuable if he would understand the point and reasoning behind.

You are 100% correct @GreenDragoon , to have a viable debate though strong argument a good reason must be put forward, and there wasn't one. Just a blind adherence to his own point of view. I am more than willing to be swayed by intelligent arguments as to why Inert Han is good for the game, but as yet none have been put forward.

People have said that possible counter play is gimmicky, hope it works and RNG goes my way all game lists, which is a very bad statement for the balance that this build brings to the game.

If it helps, Green Dragoon in particular (and the rest of you too) have convinced one doubter.

Initially, I was concerned that the main argument was "Fat Han is too powerful, NERF!" so I wanted people to assess it and then return.

However, I am now convinced that the mechanics involved are simply bad for the game - no fun equals no game, as far as I'm concerned. I'm not in the running for getting a ticket to World's, I play to have a good time with friends.

The closest thing I play that has unblockable mechanics like this is Minister Tua on a decimator. I'd be wary of anything else that has triggers at the start of engagement or end of activation phases.

Fat Han is too powerful, NERF !!!!!11111oneoneeleven

13 minutes ago, Flybywiresystem said:

Fat Han is too powerful, NERF !!!!!11111oneoneeleven

1 minute ago, LagJanson said:

They're just trolling via copy pasta of their previous posts.

1 minute ago, Hiemfire said:

They're just trolling via copy pasta of their previous posts.

The equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "la la la!" loudly. The highest form of intellectual disagreement.

3 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

The equivalent of sticking their fingers in their ears and singing "la la la!" loudly. The highest form of intellectual disagreement.

Yep

7 hours ago, Oldpara said:

I've got one more Hyperspace Trial already scheduled, and after this I think I am taking a break from X-wing.

It makes me sad to hear of anybody leaving the game (even for a short time). I took a break, and it feels good to be back. I wouldn't blame you for holding off until this thing gets sorted.

On the other hand, do you know what Han hates more than a swarm of enemy ships?

TWO SWARMS, and a HUGE SHIP that can FIRE OUT TO RANGE 5!

Bring on EPIC play!!!!

(Woah. It felt like I was channeling @Joe Boss Red Seven for a second there 😏 )

2 hours ago, Parakitor said:

It makes me sad to hear of anybody leaving the game (even for a short time). I took a break, and it feels good to be back.

One of my favorite locals players just came back, and he might bring in two other great guys in his wake. I had a frustrating pair of Hyperspace Trials, and didn't get dice, but otherwise I'm having more fun with the game than ever. (Of course, I've played neither with nor against Inert Han or Quad-Phantoms, so ... )

No really, I apologize. You were right, I was wrong.

I am totally on the nerf Han bandwagon now. We seriously have got some nerfing to do here.

Not for the wrong reasons, but for the right ones. And for all players of XWing! Especially those who don't play rebels or the Falcon.

Who brought up the ideas of moving big ships anyways? Sorry, I mean NOT moving big ships. Or let's say sometimes moving, sometimes not.

Now I am confused.

Anyway! Nerf!

1 hour ago, Flybywiresystem said:

No really, I apologize. You were right, I was wrong.

I am totally on the nerf Han bandwagon now. We seriously have got some nerfing to do here.

Not for the wrong reasons, but for the right ones. And for all players of XWing! Especially those who don't play rebels or the Falcon.

Who brought up the ideas of moving big ships anyways? Sorry, I mean NOT moving big ships. Or let's say sometimes moving, sometimes not.

Now I am confused.

Anyway! Nerf!

On 4/23/2019 at 12:34 PM, ClassicalMoser said:

This is all so fascinating to me. What I really get out of all of this is that we badly underestimated Han before the point-drop came, so now he's probably a bit OP. Here's the way I see it. Han has several advantages:

• He has free regen with R2-D2

• He gets whatever he wants from Lando

• He's almost guaranteed an evade on every roll

• He never takes damage from obstacles

• He always gets 2-4 damage and/or a crit (whatever he needs) on attack.

• He makes his own odds, plain and simple.

If there's anything to nerf in this Han list, I'm pretty sure it's just Han. He's I6, which is amazing. He doesn't care about dice for the most part, which is equally bonkers. In all honesty, he should probably go up by about 5-8 points and then he'd be about fair (Jack's list would either have nearly no bid or nearly no wingman).

The side effect is that it would then be a pretty bad idea to take him naked (maybe), but if we're being honest, an ability like his is asking for roll-to-use upgrades, so it's just good list-building in the first place.

Further evidence it's just Han that needs points upped is that not one of those upgrades has been abused (or even used much) elsewhere. R2-D2, Luke Gunner, ID, Kanan are all somewhere between "Probably overpriced" to "Maybe fair" categories points-wise.

Fix Han and the rest should follow.

Incidentally, I'm curious what Chopper/Elusive/ID would be like on a partisan X-Wing. Further use of eternal stops without the downside and if there's a Kanan U-Wing nearby you could do it stress-free.

Also curious what else we might have missed before in the efficiency of large ships. I realize it's the Falcon's boost and Han's rerolls that make this so good, but maybe there's something else there. Jerry Decimators? Twin VTG Ghosts and an X-Wing? Maybe even Dash could pull his weight again, but he's a little short on useful upgrade slots. It just makes me wonder.

Naked Boba costs more than naked Han, does that feel right to anyone?

9 hours ago, Gilarius said:

I'd be wary of anything else that has triggers at the start of engagement or end of activation p  hases.

Well wait until you get a load of what the Nantucket brings to the table with Ensnare!

3 hours ago, ta2d2 said:

Naked Boba costs more than naked Han, does that feel right to anyone?

Of course not! Han is the devil and he needs to be fixed. Boba is fine, for now.

I want to use this moment to advertise the usage of the ignore function that this forum offers.

Think of it like vaccinations that offer herd immunity. We might disagree on whether certain shots are necessary or not. But some are beyond dispute and enough people using them also help those who won't or can't.

Similarly, enough users ignoring an obvious troll (where is Shadow by the way?) help everyone else to get a better signal to noise ratio. We might disagree on some people whether they might need an ignore or whether they are just like that and can't help it. But some cases are beyond dispute.