2 hours ago, Estarriol said:

No, games are supposed to be fun. If you’re flying something you consider to be broken **** that you don’t think should be in the game for the whole purpose of winning, you’re not only saying that your victory is more important than your opponent having a good game, you’re saying you don’t care about your opponent at all.

Come to think about it, you’re also saying that your winning is more important than YOU having fun, in which case why are you even here?

Presumably to win?

2 hours ago, Estarriol said:

No, games are supposed to be fun. If you’re flying something you consider to be broken **** that you don’t think should be in the game for the whole purpose of winning, you’re not only saying that your victory is more important than your opponent having a good game, you’re saying you don’t care about your opponent at all.

Come to think about it, you’re also saying that your winning is more important than YOU having fun, in which case why are you even here?

Don’t underestimate the lure of alternate art versions of game components we already own.

Or, more accurately, the lure of measuring ones ego based upon acquisition of said items.

All the toxicity here. Man, I’m glad I usually stick to Reddit

I think I disagree with 90% of the people here. This list has some very powerful elements and Han’s ability/initiative is probably underpriced. But for crying out loud! Acting like this is the new meta is just unrealistic and complaining about a list that isn’t meta-warping is petty.

I get that you don’t like the mechanics that resemble 1.0. Sure. That’s fine. But don’t act like you speak for everyone. Every one of these abilities comes at a significant cost (except that Han’s cost is probably a little low), and it doesn’t nearly approach the power level of 1e. Is this a Falcon with 5 dice and full mods after slopping and then boosting stress-free? There’s no way to get that here, and it costs 144 points!

I can see the argument that it removes agency from the other player, but I have some doubts that that argument really holds water. I watched the games and I honestly thought Jack’s opponents didn’t play well against it. Typically they went after Jake instead of Han, making for an awful endgame, and they flew in concentrated blocks instead of spreading out to catch him and easily winning the damage race.

It is extremely maneuverable, but it has 17 health, and 5/4 attack/defense dice. You only have to catch the stupid thing.

Jack played superbly, but more than that, he surprised his opponents with a list they weren’t expecting and didn’t have a good idea how to play against. That’s in the best spirit of X-Wing: fly what you love, even if it isn’t good. Adapt and re-form. Make it as good as you can and then fly it really, really, REALLY well. If you get some good variance, you could even win an SOS.

5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Luckily you don't think there is any problem with the list, so then there is also no problem with him playing it.

To quote someone else, THAT’s what you took away from this?

You’re right, I don’t. But I was calling out someone for saying that they thought there was a problem but was going to perpetuate it anyway.

That’s an age old discussion, though. I see what you’re saying but with a worlds ticket in the line (and dangling just out of reach) I feel I need to maximise my chance of success.

This Han is broken af and massive NPE for me. Hope they fix it asap.

Just wanted to add my 3 cents Move along, move along.

3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

If you get some good variance, you could even win an SOS.

And then a Hyperspace Trial the next week. While only losing a couple of ships along the way and with only a couple of games even being remotely close.

The only 'toxicity' is willful ignorance being pointed out. For example, extended-list discussions include now the question how to beat Fat Han, and how to change builds to counter him. That means he warps the meta around him as people react to him. Ignoring that fact is not helpful for the discussion. To give just one example.

3 hours ago, ClassicalMoser said:

I  watched  the games and I honestly thought Jac  k’s opponents didn’t play well against it. 

Luke is also a very highly skilled player who is quite well known. And yet it looked like he didn't play well, after making final table? Maybe that had something to do with the list he was facing?

Having played against it, I'd say there's a good chance that your best play against the list IS to play 'badly' and hope you get lucky. If you 'do the right thing' all you might do is guarantee bleeding out over a longer period of time.

I wonder how long will last before ppl realise that Hyperspace Han is even more broken than Extended Kannan Han.

7 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

I wonder how long will last before ppl realise that Hyperspace Han is even more broken than Extended Kannan Han.

Shhhhh

I was about to take Vennie out of my case ... guess I'll leave him in for a bit longer. Seismic charges seem like a really good strategy against Han.

58 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

I wonder how long will last before ppl realise that Hyperspace Han is even more broken than Extended Kannan Han.

Relative to the other lists in the format? Yeah it's certainly possible that's true.

1 hour ago, Oldpara said:

I wonder how long will last before ppl realise that Hyperspace Han is even more broken than Extended Kannan Han.

11 minutes ago, TheCeilican said:

Relative to the other lists in the format? Yeah it's certainly possible that's true.

An option is to slot in a different gunner (e.g. agile, hotshot) and add Luke as second point fortress. Arguably he is not mobile enough. But I'd say Luke - with shield and an R2 astromech - is extremely tough to crack. The Han is a bit too cheap then.

The maybe more obvious wingman is Wedge, but I doubt he fits better. And the third option is Jack's Jake with prockets.

Jake is a much better points fortress than Luke.

Yes, you're right. The combination even more. A 116pt Han+ 76 or so Luke with a 8pt bid protects fewer points than 136pt Han +56pt Jake with 8pt bid.

Even though I doubt the value of the procket compared to an even deeper bid. Plus, Jake should not be more than the common 50ish pieces of 4ship rebels or for example republic fillers

Considering that Han pretty much needs Luke gunner to work because of the huge design mistake of not providing a linked red rotate action (without it, it's a ship which costs too much to have turns "wasted" on rotate. With it, it's a ship which should deal more with stress AND would be open to the basic xwing counterplay of blocking), how would you fix this particular Fat Han iteration?

Would giving a charge to dampners stop it being an NPE?

OK, I'll help you:

Try to replace Kannan Jarrus with Seasoned Navigator , and then set hard2 on your dial. How many possible positions you can land? I'll spare you counting: 18!!

Everything in the list with..... 22 pts bid! And with Luke Gunner to give you some additional broken mechanic/action economy. You can add prockets for fun on Jake to lower obscene bid to 15.

Please bear in mind that even without Inertial Dampeners its still 17 options

So its 2.0 where dials and arcs matters you say?

I've got one more Hyperspace Trial already scheduled, and after this I think I am taking a break from X-wing.

It is especially disappointing that they have all the tools to fix broken combos yet they're slacking and they are accepting next two SoS (Denver and Hannover) being infested by swarms of obnoxious Phantoms (Phantom's Menace ) and broken Han.

(as for dialing hard2 it is probably better to dial hard3 for "only" 12 but more spread options, but I wanted to show most disgusting option in terms of numbers)

They have shown that they are willing to act quickly to remove undesirable game elements, looking at triple Upsilon lists being smashed.

Maybe they don't want to set a precedent of knee jerk reactions to internet noise ... most of the volume from this issue is still coming from a very small, very passionate and eloquent group of community 'names'. There is an incoming points change/reshuffle with wave 4, and then 1-2 months max before the promised 6 monthly points reviews to shuffle the meta.

I trust that FFG will act to move the meta again, and think that right now there's an element of 'angry man yells at cloud' about all of this.

On flying the list while acknowledging that it is a horrible NPE for opponents ... If you think of 'winning' as the reason you go to a tournament, then you go with the list most likely to achieve that outcome. If you want to have fun chilled games with new people, then bring something else. I am reminded of the Ghost Fenn meta, which was dominated by podcasters spending every week decrying the list, and saying how broken it was, and building bad feelings in the community against people who opted to fly it ... and then they all went to big events flying the list ... propagating the 'meta' and reinforcing the need to fly it to do well.

Anyone in a position of influence in the community needs to be careful with what they say or do ... if you want to see a reduced number of 'broken' lists, be the change, find a way to beat them (turns out swarms do OK against Han) promote that list, work using your influence to push degenerate lists out of the meta, rather than reinforcing it.

14 minutes ago, Dreadai said:

On flying the list while acknowledging that it is a horrible NPE for opponents ... If you think of 'winning' as the reason you go to a tournament, then you goo with the list most likely to achieve that outcome. If you want to have fun chilled games with new people, then bring something else. I am reminded of the Ghost Fenn meta, which was dominated by podcasters spending every week decrying the list, and saying how broken it was, and building bad feelings in the community against people who opted to fly it ... and then they all went to big events flying the list ... propagating the 'meta' and reinforcing the need to fly it to do well.

Anyone in a position of influence in the community needs to be careful with what they say or do ... if you want to see a reduced number of 'broken' lists, be the change, find a way to beat them (turns out swarms do OK against Han) promote that list, work using your influence to push degenerate lists out of the meta, rather than reinforcing it.

It's just like that classic line from The Dark Knight : "You either lose as a casual, or you win long enough to see yourself become the meta."

If you help a small problem become a big problem you’re more likely to see that problem get fixed.

I don’t share @Oldpara ‘s frustration about no immediate fix. We have improved functionality over 1.0 but if the expectations are going to get bigger more rapidly than the infrastructure’s ability to solve them then we should have stuck with the old system.

When stuff went bad in 1.0 we were stuck with it for months or even years. I’m prepared to wait a couple of months for the scheduled fix point. If we don’t develop that mindset as a community then we are only going to knee jerk more violently and more frequently than ever before.

7 minutes ago, TheCeilican said:

If you help a small problem become a big problem you’re more likely to see that problem get fixed.

This is a fair point.

Unless that problem is competitive players gravitating to the same few popular lists, time and again. Then you're simply contributing to it.

That will and forever remain the biggest problem with competitive games.

*shrugs* Found my niche anyway.

2 hours ago, Oldpara said:

I've got one more Hyperspace Trial already scheduled, and after this I think I am taking a brake from X-wing.

I hope it's not a long break. I like having you around. When you say something, I listen because I think you come from a reasonable point of view. Not anecdotal hyperbole or pushing an agenda. The community would be lesser with you not in it.

1 hour ago, Dreadai said:

On flying the list while acknowledging that it is a horrible NPE for opponents ... If you think of 'winning' as the reason you go to a tournament, then you go with the list most likely to achieve that outcome. If you want to have fun chilled games with new people, then bring something else. I am reminded of the Ghost Fenn meta, which was dominated by podcasters spending every week decrying the list, and saying how broken it was, and building bad feelings in the community against people who opted to fly it ... and then they all went to big events flying the list ... propagating the 'meta' and reinforcing the need to fly it to do well.

Anyone in a position of influence in the community needs to be careful with what they say or do ... if you want to see a reduced number of 'broken' lists, be the change, find a way to beat them (turns out swarms do OK against Han) promote that list, work using your influence to push degenerate lists out of the meta, rather than reinforcing it.

There are a lot of lazy, boring cowards out there.

3 hours ago, Oldpara said:

OK, I'll help you:

Try to replace Kannan Jarrus with Seasoned Navigator , and then set hard2 on your dial. How many possible positions you can land? I'll spare you counting: 18!!

Everything in the list with..... 22 pts bid! And with Luke Gunner to give you some additional broken mechanic/action economy. You can add prockets for fun on Jake to lower obscene bid to 15.

Please bear in mind that even without Inertial Dampeners its still 17 options

So its 2.0 where dials and arcs matters you say?

3 hours ago, Oldpara said:

...I've got one more Hyperspace Trial already scheduled, and after this I think I am taking a break from X-wing...

* pats an open seat next to him *

Welcome, Old Friend.