43 minutes ago, Redd9 said:

Han Solo (Scum) (54)
Trick Shot (2)
GNK "Gonk" Droid (10)
L3-37 (4)
Inertial Dampeners (1)
Lando's Millennium Falcon (6)

Ship total: 77 Half Points: 39 Threshold: 6

Autopilot Drone (12)
Ship total: 12 Half Points: 6 Threshold: 2


Total: 89

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v6!s=200!89:133,,32,43,,95,,152:;96::&sn=[Module] Good Han&obs=

Best I could come up with, just seems like a slower inert Han. Like he's out of shape rather than fat or obese.

So I don't think you need Gonk there.

ID would be used specifically in those couple of cases where it'll save you from leaping into the killbox. Think of it like you should think of Heroic: a 1 point upgrade that you might trigger a couple times across an entire tournament as insurance. If it saves Han from death by focus fire even one game it's probably worth the points.

30 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

There is also the option to not remove the stress with Kanan because the next move will likely be blue anyway and you have the force point in case you roll an eyeball. Which you won't always.

Also, with Han's ability, modding dice becomes a little less of an issue, anyway.

24 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

So I don't think you need Gonk there.

ID would be used specifically in those couple of cases where it'll save you from leaping into the killbox. Think of it like you should think of Heroic: a 1 point upgrade that you might trigger a couple times across an entire tournament as insurance. If it saves Han from death by focus fire even one game it's probably worth the points.

Really? For me, Heroic tends to trigger a couple times per game !

6 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

Really? For me, Heroic tends to trigger a couple times per game !

On the same ship though?

6 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

On the same ship though?

No, across four ships.

3 hours ago, TheCeilican said:

After all this careful planning and ensuring I had answers for all his options he went forwards, took 1 damage off a Proxy Mine and dealt 4 damage to Vader firing through a rock, Jake lost a shield to my two attacks.

This here is some apocalyptic variance. Do you think you would have had any kind of edge if it had been merely average?

It’s kind of not, though. He can reroll the proxy mine dice and he’s got great odds of 4 hits on Vader with Han/Focus/TL. I should have got a couple of paint and maybe taken 2 damage not 4, but that’s really what his lost actually does. All the maneuvering options are a cover and distraction from how reliably he keeps chipping away and chipping away in positive dice trades.

Keeping Vader on the table was massive as I need those crits. Him going down in two shots was bad, but so long as Jack can stay engaged while only taking a little bit each turn he’ll win that race almost every time.

This is all so fascinating to me. What I really get out of all of this is that we badly underestimated Han before the point-drop came, so now he's probably a bit OP. Here's the way I see it. Han has several advantages:

• He has free regen with R2-D2

• He gets whatever he wants from Lando

• He's almost guaranteed an evade on every roll

• He never takes damage from obstacles

• He always gets 2-4 damage and/or a crit (whatever he needs) on attack.

• He makes his own odds, plain and simple.

If there's anything to nerf in this Han list, I'm pretty sure it's just Han. He's I6, which is amazing. He doesn't care about dice for the most part, which is equally bonkers. In all honesty, he should probably go up by about 5-8 points and then he'd be about fair (Jack's list would either have nearly no bid or nearly no wingman).

The side effect is that it would then be a pretty bad idea to take him naked (maybe), but if we're being honest, an ability like his is asking for roll-to-use upgrades, so it's just good list-building in the first place.

Further evidence it's just Han that needs points upped is that not one of those upgrades has been abused (or even used much) elsewhere. R2-D2, Luke Gunner, ID, Kanan are all somewhere between "Probably overpriced" to "Maybe fair" categories points-wise.

Fix Han and the rest should follow.

Incidentally, I'm curious what Chopper/Elusive/ID would be like on a partisan X-Wing. Further use of eternal stops without the downside and if there's a Kanan U-Wing nearby you could do it stress-free.

Also curious what else we might have missed before in the efficiency of large ships. I realize it's the Falcon's boost and Han's rerolls that make this so good, but maybe there's something else there. Jerry Decimators? Twin VTG Ghosts and an X-Wing? Maybe even Dash could pull his weight again, but he's a little short on useful upgrade slots. It just makes me wonder.

3 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Incidentally  , I'm curious what Chopper/Elusive/ID would be like on a partisan  X-   Wing. Further use of eternal stops without the downside  and if there's a Kanan U-Wing nearby you could do it stress-free.   

The ID stop is a white maneuver so won't recharge Elusive. The Partisan would have to rely on its Tallons and K-turn to keep providing the charges Chopper needs to replace the spent shield. That said the combo might have some application.

7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

The ID stop is a white maneuver so won't recharge Elusive. The Partisan would have to rely on its Tallons and K-turn to keep providing the charges Chopper needs to replace the spent shield. That said the combo might have some application.

Yeah, I realize that, plus the ship would be super stressed without Kanan. Probably not worth the investment, but interesting as a party trick.

34 minutes ago, TheCeilican said:

It’s kind of not, though. He can reroll the proxy mine dice and he’s got great odds of 4 hits on Vader with Han/Focus/TL. I should have got a couple of paint and maybe taken 2 damage not 4, but that’s really what his lost actually does. All the maneuvering options are a cover and distraction from how reliably he keeps chipping away and chipping away in positive dice trades.

Keeping Vader on the table was massive as I need those crits. Him going down in two shots was bad, but so long as Jack can stay engaged while only taking a little bit each turn he’ll win that race almost every time.

If you had to face it again, with the same list, would you change anything? Turn 0 type stuff, like obstacle choice/placement?

16 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

What  I really get out of all of this is that we badly underestimated Han  before  the point-drop came, so now he's probably a bit OP. 

I think Han was already fine before points changed. He never got a shake at a meta not lousy with torpedoes at his old price, which is a consequence of FFG changing multiple variables all at once (which they've generally done a good job at, imo).

The Kanan+ID ruling a month ago, though, changed the situation for extended Han hardcore. On top of that, the Han build with all the tricks got a full *17* points cheaper in January. If you count Jake as part and parcel, it's a whopping 21!

Han came down 10, Luke down 4, Kanan down 2, Engine Upgrade down 2, Jake down 4. Offset only by Trick Shot up 1, or if you want, also by Lone Wolf up 1.

Compare that to a monster of preseason, Marauder+Han Boba Fett with Palob and 2x Tugboats. That's a list that went up by about 20 points and entirely disappointed from the meta, not just as a list but also almost completely as individual pieces, too. A 20 point change to a build is a monumental efficiency shift.

But despite all that digital ink, it's not about the strict power level of Han. There's no such thing in second edition as an unbeatable list or a list that wins big in the hands of an unskilled player. It's about the resurrection of non-interactive game mechanics that we thought were dead and buried along with first edition, only for us to find them carrying on undead, having attached themselves at the neck to a second edition body.

5 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I was talking about.

I can only believe that you are disingenuous when you imply that strongly that Han is going to use all his tricks all the time - an obvious straw man.

It is as obvious as others trying to downplay the skill involved. It is precisely part of the problem that this Han is as skill dependent - he can remove so much agency that the opponent does not get to play. Obviously that requires somewhat good decision making and eg range control, ie a good player.

But all this has been said several times over the past 12 (!) pages, so no point in repeating myself again.

We have had quite a debate over the 4 phantoms yet here you're absolutely right.

+1

2 hours ago, TheCeilican said:

It’s kind of not, though. He can reroll the proxy mine dice and he’s got great odds of 4 hits on Vader with Han/Focus/TL. I should have got a couple of paint and maybe taken 2 damage not 4, but that’s really what his lost actually does. All the maneuvering options are a cover and distraction from how reliably he keeps chipping away and chipping away in positive dice trades.

Fair enough and thanks for the reply. The Proxy reroll obviously is a good chance of mitigating damage but I did read 4 damage on Vader in one shot, through a rock, and wince

I think the focus on his many options does distract from the fact that he has easy access to passive double mods in this build. That's really the thing that tips it over the edge and is the biggest thing flying in the face of the 2.0 mission statement.

There are many things that can just say nope to taking shots. None but Obese Han can do it and maintain their attacking edge.

31 minutes ago, Cuz05 said:

Fair enough and thanks for the reply. The Proxy reroll obviously is a good chance of mitigating damage but I did read 4 damage on Vader in one shot, through a rock, and wince

I think the focus on his many options does distract from the fact that he has easy access to passive double mods in this build. That's really the thing that tips it over the edge and is the biggest thing flying in the face of the 2.0 mission statement.

There are many things that can just say nope to taking shots. None but Obese Han can do it and maintain their attacking edge.

True, and having played this build a few times on FlyCasual (which doesn't accurately represent his re-rolls for rocks and the like) I'm extremely impressed with the power of his re-rolls on attack and defense. It's really incredible.

But still. For 144 points?! I mean, Vader in a Defender would hardly cost that much!

1 minute ago, ClassicalMoser said:

True, and having played this build a few times on FlyCasual (which doesn't accurately represent his re-rolls for rocks and the like) I'm extremely impressed with the power of his re-rolls on attack and defense. It's really incredible.

But still. For 144 points?! I mean, Vader in a Defender would hardly cost that much!

He totally would. I would take Vader in a Defender against 200 point lists solo and feel okay (with upgrades).

3 minutes ago, Biophysical said:

He totally would. I would take Vader in a Defender against 200 point lists solo and feel okay (with upgrades).

Thinking Hate, HLC, FCS or AS, Prockets?

I am starting to think just giving the Rebel Falcon a second gunner slot and losing the second crew slot would force Han to mostly play fair.

8 minutes ago, svelok said:

I am starting to think just giving the Rebel Falcon a second gunner slot and losing the second crew slot would force Han to mostly play fair.

I dunno, a combo of Veteran Turret Gunner and Hotshot Gunner could be a bit powerful at I6... or Hotshot and Ezra or even Luke and Hotshot

Oh sure give him the opportunity to get double attacks with Luke. That will help(!)

Either change the ID/Kanan ruling to make it not work, or remove the slot entirely.

32 minutes ago, ClassicalMoser said:

Thinking Hate, HLC, FCS or AS, Prockets?

At that point you've got to do SNR, I think. Everything else is flavor to taste.

26 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Either  change the ID/Kanan ruling to make it not work, or remove the slot  entirely  .

ID/Kanan works because of how the ability que functions (ID has to fully process before Kanan can start). The "ruling" was merely clarification.

49 minutes ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

I dunno, a combo of Veteran Turret Gunner and Hotshot Gunner could be a bit powerful at I6... or Hotshot and Ezra or even Luke and Hotshot

48 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Oh sure give him the opportunity to get double attacks with Luke. That will help(!)

I mean, we have yet to see a large base turret ever getting much mileage out of VTG...

16 hours ago, Alpha Kenny Buddy said:

Yeah how dare you have fun here. We must whine about plastic ships here.

Sorry. My bad. In that case:

2.0 is terrible! Make Han Bad Again! Time for X-Wing 3.1.2!

A local TO wants to run a novelty tournament. Teams, can be cross-faction, 125 points per player. My was-gonna-be teammate and I were getting psyched for it. We were gonna run "Calc-U-Later, B*tches," which was Wat and Vultures, 4-LOM, and IG-A. Wholesome and fun.

Then he asked if each player could bring the same Unique ... and, unfortunately, despite our best arguments, the answer came down as "yes."

So ...

https://raithos.github.io/?f=Rebel Alliance&d=v6!s=125!42:133,,86,56,41,107,154,95:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Killed our enthusiasm instantly.

2 minutes ago, Jeff Wilder said:

Killed our enthusiasm instantly.

non-ironic sad reacts only, that sucks!