Ahhhh I read that as *insert* fat Han.

My mistake. Carry on!

14 hours ago, kris40k said:

Sure, I get that, but to me it is an interesting combination of abilities that becomes something greater than its individual parts. Containing a support unit is not a requirement. I view it more of clever use of pieces and an interesting puzzle to solve in 75 minutes rather than something that is a symptom of a broken game.

This sounds like a response from the typical 40K players, 40K players are all about the gimmicky one trick pony rubbish. I gave up on 40K a long long time ago, I just saw recently Primarchs are now in the game, that is so ridiculously BS that I am glad I dropped it when I did. How does this relate to X Wing? It is not an interesting combination at all. Nothing about it is interesting.

Part of 2.0 that FFG wanted to increase in value was manoeuvring skill. This list requires 0 of that. Each individual part is not broken, until you create some BS MechaStreisand ship that takes away the core mechanics of the game. Like a majority of people on this forum, I cannot understand why you can't see that this combination is bad for the game. Or are you one of those players that need broken combos to win?

3 hours ago, Archangelspiv said:

This sounds like a response from the typical 40K players, 40K players are all about the gimmicky one trick pony rubbish. I gave up on 40K a long long time ago, I just saw recently Primarchs are now in the game, that is so ridiculously BS that I am glad I dropped it when I did. How does this relate to X Wing? It is not an interesting combination at all. Nothing about it is interesting.

Part of 2.0 that FFG wanted to increase in value was manoeuvring skill. This list requires 0 of that. Each individual part is not broken, until you create some BS MechaStreisand ship that takes away the core mechanics of the game. Like a majority of people on this forum, I cannot understand why you can't see that this combination is bad for the game. Or are you one of those players that need broken combos to win?

Fat Han doesn’t equal autowin. Even most of the people on here say they do t like the ability to have so many combinations working together as opposed to it being overpowered. At the end of the day it’s 3/4of your points sunk into a three dice attack.

Hey, if it ends up as duplicated and as successful as quad phantoms then I’ll probably cross the lines to your side, but as things stand I don’t think it’s that big of a deal, certainly not as much of one as it’s being made into.

I’m not a rebel player and I never plan to run this list.

Also flaming people you disagree with isn’t cool unless they fly 4/5 y-wings.

I think the first edition of the game conditioned people to believe that tournament lists are supposed to feel bad, and not something a gentleman brings to a casual game.

But that's not true! That was just first edition being bad! Tournament lists are fun to play against now, even with random casual gimmick lists!

Except the ones that aren't, which are the ones that need to be addressed. Tugboats/Palob/Boba, Dash/Roark... now Quad Phantoms and Inert Han.

2 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

Fat Han doesn’t equal autowin. Even most of the people on here say they do t like the ability to have so many combinations working together as opposed to it being overpowered. At the end of the day it’s 3/4of your points sunk into a three dice attack.

Hey, if it ends up as duplicated and as successful as quad phantoms then I’ll probably cross the lines to your side, but as things stand I don’t think it’s that big of a deal, certainly not as much of one as it’s being made into.

I’m not a rebel player and I never plan to run this list.

Also flaming people you disagree with isn’t cool unless they fly 4/5 y-wings.

It doesn't matter it's only a 3 die attack. It matters with the crew and ID interaction he can stop you shooting at him at all.

11 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

It doesn't matter it's only a 3 die attack. It matters with the crew and ID interaction he can stop you shooting at him at all.

It's both. He rarely stops you shooting at him entirely but he can very reliably reduce you to firing a lower number of shots at a range/obstruction of his choosing while he retains a lot of dice mods to ensure that the damage taken doesn't overwhelm his ability to regenerate.

4 minutes ago, TheCeilican said:

It's both. He rarely stops you shooting at him entirely but he can very reliably reduce you to firing a lower number of shots at a range/obstruction of his choosing while he retains a lot of dice mods to ensure that the damage taken doesn't overwhelm his ability to regenerate.

This is what I am talking about. He can stay blocked at rng 0 with ID, can move to bump with his original move. Can boost to dodge arcs, can rotate turret with Luke and can reroll all his dice if he is close to an obstacle.... Am I missing anything. He doesnt need actions, he has the resources to turn turret arcs and reroll dice with card abilities, and to top it all off, can regen for days, rerolling R2 if he gets a bad result.... yeah awesome fun!!!!

20 minutes ago, Estarriol said:

H  ey   , if it ends up as duplicated and as successful as quad phantoms then I’ll probably cross the lines to your side, but as things stand I don’t think it’s that big of a deal, certainly not as much of one as it’s being made into. 

So, this is a weird perspective to me.

We're not in first edition - there doesn't have to be some heavy handed errata that effectively removes the ship from the game.

The status quo, here, is not some inherently stable thing... just the opposite, we know definitively there will be point, slot, and ruling changes in July. If something is really underpriced, it can be significantly increased in price. If some combo is somewhat too weak, it can be mildly improved in cost or granted new options. If some build is slightly bad for the game, it can be adjusted slightly.

The thresholds can be really, really low, because the adjustments can be really really precise.

Kanan+ID can be changed directly via an updated ruling without dismantling the rest of the cards - ****, the Kanan+ID combo was only created by a ruling a month ago. We exist in a state of ongoing change - the status quo is now by definition unstable.

If Han is overtuned, his January points reduction can be somewhat reversed. R2-D2 can go up in price a few points, or the rebel Falcon can go down to just one crew slot for a season, maybe even gaining a second gunner for the trade. Inertial Dampeners could move to being priced based on initiative, or the Falcon could lose its mod slot and have to learn to Boost Red.

The whole point of second edition is relentless optimization, the price of incremental changes is incredibly small.

4 minutes ago, Archangelspiv said:

This is what I am talking about. He can stay blocked at rng 0 with ID, can move to bump with his original move. Can boost to dodge arcs, can rotate turret with Luke and can reroll all his dice if he is close to an obstacle.... Am I missing anything. He doesnt need actions, he has the resources to turn turret arcs and reroll dice with card abilities, and to top it all off, can regen for days, rerolling R2 if he gets a bad result.... yeah awesome fun!!!!

Also, if he hapoens to not need his crew/gunner abilities, he's got 1-2 force free go modify his dice if he wants to evade, boost, or lock.

49 minutes ago, Alpha Kenny Buddy said:

Its an incredibly difficult list to fly well.

You cannot be serious.

At some point, the complete lack of charitable understanding or good faith arguments can only be taken as willful entrenchment.

Inertial Dampeners is just one of those upgrades that makes higher initiative even better than it already is, and this forum has been over why higher initiative doesn't need upgrades that are better at higher initiatives already.

Remove the illicit slot from the Rebel Falcon, or just initiative price Dampeners so that it costs 20 points at I6.

2 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Inertial Dampeners is just one of those upgrades that makes higher initiative even better than it already is, and this forum has been over why higher initiative doesn't need upgrades that are better at higher initiatives already.

Remove the illicit slot from the Rebel Falcon, or just initiative price Dampeners so that it costs 20 points at I6.

Is Inertial Dampeners a problem without R2D2 crew? We don't see it used on Scum Han. In fact we don't see it at all outside of this Fat Han which is why I lean towards the source of the issue being R2D2 crew and very low chance for consequences from it's normal drawback because of Han's ability. Beyond just a points increase on R2D2 crew and/or Han, I don't know how else to exactly deal with it.

14 hours ago, TheCeilican said:

Nope, he had Nien Nunb though it didn’t seem relevant and he said Chewie would have been better.

He beat me in the semi. I didn’t get much say at all in the outcome of the match as he held all the cards from minute one to the last dice roll and had complete control. I’m not sure what needs to change on Han but something does.

What'd you run and why do you feel he had all of the cards?

5 minutes ago, RStan said:

Is Inertial Dampeners a problem without R2D2 crew? We don't see it used on Scum Han. In fact we don't see it at all outside of this Fat Han which is why I lean towards the source of the issue being R2D2 crew and very low chance for consequences from it's normal drawback because of Han's ability. Beyond just a points increase on R2D2 crew and/or Han, I don't know how else to exactly deal with it.

Juke wasnt a problem at 4 points outside of quad Phantoms, but everyone else suffered anyway.

4 minutes ago, RStan said:

Is Inertial Dampeners a problem without R2D2 crew? We don't see it used on Scum Han. In fact we don't see it at all outside of this Fat Han which is why I lean towards the source of the issue being R2D2 crew and very low chance for consequences from it's normal drawback because of Han's ability. Beyond just a points increase on R2D2 crew and/or Han, I don't know how else to exactly deal with it.

27 minutes ago, RStan said:

Is Inertial Dampeners a problem without R2D2 crew? We don't see it used on Scum Han. In fact we don't see it at all outside of this Fat Han which is why I lean towards the source of the issue being R2D2 crew and very low chance for consequences from it's normal drawback because of Han's ability. Beyond just a points increase on R2D2 crew and/or Han, I don't know how else to exactly deal with it.

I agree with your assessment, but dampeners also is just one of those upgrades that fundamentally isn't good for the game. Removing the illicit slot from Han takes away the combination of that plus R2, but leaves it as a possible option elsewhere as the emergency button it was meant to be, and maybe people are wrong in not putting it on Scum Han.

Its still possible that R2D2 is also a problem, because infinite regen is bad.

49 minutes ago, RStan said:

Is Inertial Dampeners a problem without R2D2 crew? We don't see it used on Scum Han. In fact we don't see it at all outside of this Fat Han which is why I lean towards the source of the issue being R2D2 crew and very low chance for consequences from it's normal drawback because of Han's ability. Beyond just a points increase on R2D2 crew and/or Han, I don't know how else to exactly deal with it.

I think the answer is probably yes, and even if the answer is also ID is a problem, infinite regen R2D2 crew is underpriced for what it brings, even OUTSIDE of Han, but in particular with Han Pilot.

37 minutes ago, gennataos said:

What'd you run and why do you feel he had all of the cards?

Vader, Soontir and two Scimitar Bombers with Proxy Mines. It was supposed to be janky but the Bombers are really good - think of the Torrents in the Jedi list, only with more hull, better dials and bombs. I was top MOV out of the swiss.

And the reason I say he held all the cards is for many reasons, but I would sum up that turns 1-3 went pretty much exactly as I wanted them to, positioning wise.

• Turn 1 I traded shots with Han at R3, taking 2 shields off him for no damage back.

• Turn 2 is the critical turn because he can go Left, Right, Forwards or just stop dead. I placed my ships where if he went Right I would bump Han (possibly onto a rock) and he'd be in arc of a Bomber and Vader, if he went Left Vader and the Bomber blocked his boost out and he'd take R1 fire from both of them then potentially have to fly out past a Proxy Mine on turn 3, if went straight he'd take a Proxy Mine the next turn and then be separated from Jake and committed to taking a route around into where I could drop another Proxy Mine to ensure he stayed separated for several turns. On top of this if he stopped dead I had 3 shots on him, and I had called Jake's move correctly and had positioned Soontir (who was blocking a 3 bank Right) and the blocking Bomber to have shots on Jake while Vader was also in position to race over he middle of the table to follow up and chase Jake on Turn 3.

After all this careful planning and ensuring I had answers for all his options he went forwards, took 1 damage off a Proxy Mine and dealt 4 damage to Vader firing through a rock, Jake lost a shield to my two attacks.

• Turn 3 I dropped Proxy Mine to cut Han off from looping around the central rock to stay engaged, pushing him out into the corner, then jammed all my ships around as fast as possible to try and catch Jake. Jake 5 fwd lol-boosted clear with full dice mods, which I simply couldn't cover, then Han stopped dead with Inertial Dampeners to avoid dealing with the Proxy Mine and he finished Vader off.

After those turns Han and Jake were loose in the wild having slipped the net, my biggest gun was off the board and all I'd managed to do was chip a few shields off. And that was all from what I felt had been pretty optimal work on my behalf to get the shots I needed on Han while reducing him to only firing with Han and my having 4 green dice against each shot. The game was SO uphill in Jack's favour that I'm not sure there was anything more I could really have done... it all went to plan but no plans I could lay were good enough short of dice variance going hugely my way or pushing a lucky crit.

1 hour ago, Tlfj200 said:

I think the answer is probably yes, and even if the answer is also ID is a problem, infinite regen R2D2 crew is underpriced for what it brings, even OUTSIDE of Han, but in particular with Han Pilot.

Han Solo (Scum) (54)
Trick Shot (2)
GNK "Gonk" Droid (10)
L3-37 (4)
Inertial Dampeners (1)
Lando's Millennium Falcon (6)

Ship total: 77 Half Points: 39 Threshold: 6

Autopilot Drone (12)
Ship total: 12 Half Points: 6 Threshold: 2


Total: 89

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v6!s=200!89:133,,32,43,,95,,152:;96::&sn=[Module] Good Han&obs=

Best I could come up with, just seems like a slower inert Han. Like he's out of shape rather than fat or obese.

Edit: add agile gunner and i think thats as good as its gonna get for a scumitation.

1 hour ago, GreenDragoon said:

At some point, the complete lack of charitable understanding or good faith arguments can only be taken as willful entrenchment.

I agree.

People really need to stop saying that he has infinite regen to reduce the damage he is taking while simultaneously 0-stopping. Its one or the other, not both. As well, he's not using his Force to mod shots/defense dice while also removing Stress and rotating his turret with Luke. Except for the inital starting at 2, you only get 1 Force per round to spend on his shenanigans. To refill the pool to 2, you need a round that you don't have to remove stress, you don't have to mod a focus result (beyond the Focus Jake may have tossed ya), and you don't have to rotate your turret all at the same time (hint, this means the opponent messed up).

First I thought that people didn't know how the combo works, but now I just think people are willfully ignoring how the cards really do interact on the table.

Totally agree on charges for R2-D2, but that was covered earlier. I don't know why FFG missed the boat on that one.

1 hour ago, RStan said:

Is  Inertial Dampeners a  problem without R2D2 crew? We don't see it used on Scum Han. In fact we don't see it at all outside of this Fat Han which is why I lean towards the source of the issue being R2D2 crew and very low chance for consequences from it's normal drawback because of  Han's ability. Beyond just a points increase on R2D2 crew and/or Han, I don't know how else to exactly deal with it. 

I don't know, but I've got a Han list with a docked drone. That lets me "bank" a couple of uses of ID even if Han is into hull. I think I'm going to at least give it a go.

1 minute ago, kris40k said:

First   I thought that people didn't  know how the combo wor  ks, but now I just think people are willfully ignoring how t  he card  s really do interact on the table.  

Thank you for demonstrating exactly what I was talking about.

I can only believe that you are disingenuous when you imply that strongly that Han is going to use all his tricks all the time - an obvious straw man.

It is as obvious as others trying to downplay the skill involved. It is precisely part of the problem that this Han is as skill dependent - he can remove so much agency that the opponent does not get to play. Obviously that requires somewhat good decision making and eg range control, ie a good player.

But all this has been said several times over the past 12 (!) pages, so no point in repeating myself again.

52 minutes ago, TheCeilican said:

Vader, Soontir and two Scimitar Bombers with Proxy Mines. It was supposed to be janky but the Bombers are really good - think of the Torrents in the Jedi list, only with more hull, better dials and bombs. I was top MOV out of the swiss.

And the reason I say he held all the cards is for many reasons, but I would sum up that turns 1-3 went pretty much exactly as I wanted them to, positioning wise.

• Turn 1 I traded shots with Han at R3, taking 2 shields off him for no damage back.

• Turn 2 is the critical turn because he can go Left, Right, Forwards or just stop dead. I placed my ships where if he went Right I would bump Han (possibly onto a rock) and he'd be in arc of a Bomber and Vader, if he went Left Vader and the Bomber blocked his boost out and he'd take R1 fire from both of them then potentially have to fly out past a Proxy Mine on turn 3, if went straight he'd take a Proxy Mine the next turn and then be separated from Jake and committed to taking a route around into where I could drop another Proxy Mine to ensure he stayed separated for several turns. On top of this if he stopped dead I had 3 shots on him, and I had called Jake's move correctly and had positioned Soontir (who was blocking a 3 bank Right) and the blocking Bomber to have shots on Jake while Vader was also in position to race over he middle of the table to follow up and chase Jake on Turn 3.

After all this careful planning and ensuring I had answers for all his options he went forwards, took 1 damage off a Proxy Mine and dealt 4 damage to Vader firing through a rock, Jake lost a shield to my two attacks.

• Turn 3 I dropped Proxy Mine to cut Han off from looping around the central rock to stay engaged, pushing him out into the corner, then jammed all my ships around as fast as possible to try and catch Jake. Jake 5 fwd lol-boosted clear with full dice mods, which I simply couldn't cover, then Han stopped dead with Inertial Dampeners to avoid dealing with the Proxy Mine and he finished Vader off.

After those turns Han and Jake were loose in the wild having slipped the net, my biggest gun was off the board and all I'd managed to do was chip a few shields off. And that was all from what I felt had been pretty optimal work on my behalf to get the shots I needed on Han while reducing him to only firing with Han and my having 4 green dice against each shot. The game was SO uphill in Jack's favour that I'm not sure there was anything more I could really have done... it all went to plan but no plans I could lay were good enough short of dice variance going hugely my way or pushing a lucky crit.

Thanks. This is the kind of stuff I find interesting, real game accounts of how things worked out.

27 minutes ago, kris40k said:

I agree.

People really need to stop saying that he has infinite regen to reduce the damage he is taking while simultaneously 0-stopping. Its one or the other, not both. As well, he's not using his Force to mod shots/defense dice while also removing Stress and rotating his turret with Luke. Except for the inital starting at 2, you only get 1 Force per round to spend on his shenanigans. To refill the pool to 2, you need a round that you don't have to remove stress, you don't have to mod a focus result (beyond the Focus Jake may have tossed ya), and you don't have to rotate your turret all at the same time (hint, this means the opponent messed up).

First I thought that people didn't know how the combo works, but now I just think people are willfully ignoring how the cards really do interact on the table.

Totally agree on charges for R2-D2, but that was covered earlier. I don't know why FFG missed the boat on that one.

Nah, he's only picking the two out of the four that he needs to do on any given turn.

All of the games I've played against Han have been without Luke, and he only needs to rotate his turret a couple times a game then. Most of the time that force point is available.

He doesn't need to park every turn, only the turns where it is needed. Maybe 3-4 times a game. R2D2 isn't even needed for ID to be worth 1 point IMO on an I6, because often that stop will prevent a lot more than one damage anyway. The turns he isn't parking, he can afford to take a hit because he's just gonna regen than shield back.

Han is only stressing the couple of times that he's using ID or the couple of times he is boosting. Both are purely defensive moves, only needed a few times a game. Lets say, half the turns (which is probably too high). There is also the option to not remove the stress with Kanan because the next move will likely be blue anyway and you have the force point in case you roll an eyeball. Which you won't always.