1 hour ago, svelok said:

Triple Deadeye Scouts had:

• white left segnor's loop (now red)
• right segnors loop (now gone)
• green left hards (now white)
• white right hards (now red)
• guidance chips (gone)
• 360 turret primary (now a 90 degree turret)

3x Passive Sensors Torps in 2.0 wouldn't have half those things.

If they have to turn right, they're stressed, and don't get to fire their torps. If they s-loop, no torps. If they need to dump stress, they have to bank, not hard turn. If you slip their front arc, or range control to range 1, they have only a 2 dice single turret arc.

Maybe it would still be good? Maybe even still too good? You can have 3x E-Wings show up to round one with double modded torps, and nobody really runs that, this would have half the mods and much worse maneuverability but 9 more hull. Maybe that's enough to push it over the line? I dunno.

But just kicking it down reflexively because it resembles the 1.0 list on its face is the sort of thing that put the 2.0 Jumpmaster in its position in the first place.

Yes. I think you underestimate the vehemence with which people would hate anything resembling the 1e list.

I think if it ended up being solid again for almost any reason that wasn't mass blockers or torpedoes, people could find it palatable. Literally anything based around either/both of those, though... eesh...

30 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Yes. I think you underestimate the vehemence with which people would hate anything resembling the 1e list.

5 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

I think if it ended up being solid again for almost any reason that wasn't mass blockers or torpedoes, people could find it palatable. Literally anything based around either/both of those, though... eesh...

Let the past die. Change editions if you have to.

The serious version: the dial changes (no white sloop and no white right turns, primarily) limit the ship in so many ways, and the turret going from 360 to 90 degrees changes so, so substantially its follow up or flanking engagements. (And it can't rotate it without stress, at which point the white left hard turns become quite painful too.) And of course, Deadeye Scouts got round 1 double modded shots - 2.0 scouts would have to set it up over two turns the old fashioned way, at which point you're probably in range 1 or a spot they can't turn to (or they have to right hard or sloop, at which point they're stressed and not double modding after all.)

I actually think the 2.0 Jumpmaster has gotten so much worse that people haven't actually put it on a table enough to know how much worse it truly is. Deadeye Scouts could 2-turn at you and then throw 2-3 dice at you wherever you want if you slipped range 2 or front arc. Passive Scouts go from that to probably losing their shot entirely.

On 4/16/2019 at 5:36 AM, NakedDex said:

Points drop and an expanded upgrade bar is where I see it going.

But a points drop doesn't actually fix anything with the ship. Making it more efficient but still garbage doesn't fix anything. It just makes it more likely that somebody will want to start flying 5 of these around and may start winning because of attrition.

On 4/16/2019 at 5:36 AM, NakedDex said:

Let's look at the dial first. It's trash. We know this. We don't need to elaborate. With current cards, the only real way to fix that is with R4, and that's small ship only. Remember, we're not doing written errata here, so that's out.

So isn't my suggestion the perfect solution for this? A version of the R4 that is specific to the Jumpmaster.

The ship is so far away from being competitive right now. It's obvious that FFG has messed up with this ship yet again. In first edition they made it way too powerful. In this edition they made it way too weak. Maybe they will actually play test this ship a few times before sending it to print in 3rd edition.

On 4/17/2019 at 7:21 AM, feltipern1 said:

Dengar + Punishing One + R3 Astromech for two target locks + Agile Gunner + Fire Control System + ProTorps. Now, all of a sudden, you get an I6 ship that can hold two locks, get a reroll on any of two locked ships without spending the lock (or spend the lock on a ProTorps attack), and an End-Phase free rotate action. I don't know about the Passive Sensors, since we only have slightly questionable intel on that, but with currently-available cards, this becomes a solid support option, in my opinion.

Do you really want to spend 91 points on a ship that has a hard time turning right, 90 degree turret, and has to stress to rotate its turret. Surely there are better options out there for 91 points.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

Let the past die. Change editions if you have to.

The serious version: the dial changes (no white sloop and no white right turns, primarily) limit the ship in so many ways, and the turret going from 360 to 90 degrees changes so, so substantially its follow up or flanking engagements. (And it can't rotate it without stress, at which point the white left hard turns become quite painful too.) And of course, Deadeye Scouts got round 1 double modded shots - 2.0 scouts would have to set it up over two turns the old fashioned way, at which point you're probably in range 1 or a spot they can't turn to (or they have to right hard or sloop, at which point they're stressed and not double modding after all.)

I actually think the 2.0 Jumpmaster has gotten so much worse that people haven't actually put it on a table enough to know how much worse it truly is. Deadeye Scouts could 2-turn at you and then throw 2-3 dice at you wherever you want if you slipped range 2 or front arc. Passive Scouts go from that to probably losing their shot entirely.

Not to sound condescending, but I'm very familiar with them. I took a pair of scouts (albeit built in a way that made everyone cock their head and ask questions because they were *not* normal/meta) and Palob to win a sizeable regionals back in 1e, and have played a few the new version several times to see what can and can't be done with it. I'm not the herald of "JM5K can DIAF", rather I'd like to see it back and fun. I'm not convinced anything to do with torps will allow that though. It still has a ton of potential without crutching on ordnance. I've won more games with Feedback Array on that frame than any torpedo, and that was at the height of their explodeyness.

27 minutes ago, Skitch_ said:

But a points drop doesn't actually fix anything with the ship. Making it more efficient but still garbage doesn't fix anything. It just makes it more likely that somebody will want to start flying 5 of these around and may start winning because of attrition.

So isn't my suggestion the perfect solution for this? A version of the R4 that is specific to the Jumpmaster.

The ship is so far away from being competitive right now. It's obvious that FFG has messed up with this ship yet again. In first edition they made it way too powerful. In this edition they made it way too weak. Maybe they will actually play test this ship a few times before sending it to print in 3rd edition.

A ship that costs 91 points and has a hard time turning right, 90 degree turret, has to stress to rotate turret. What other ships can be made for 91 points?

Nobody suggested a points drop below the level that would make five possible. I even only suggested a drop of two points, and that was just by way of making something like Agile Gunner or FCS (assuming gunner and/or sensor slot) easier to purchase as compensation for the horrid action bar. Nobody wants five. I honestly don't think people even want four. If anything, if they got a sensor slot as well as gunner and kept their torpedoes, I'd be calling for an increase.

Your suggestion isn't, as you say, perfect. Its primary problem is it flies in the face of how FFG have intended to balance/fix things in the game. Firstly, it requires giving a droid slot to all ships, but that kind of nullifies part of the Punishing One title. Granted, theres a solid argument for giving up a crew slot for a second astromech slot (and I'd be ok with that, honestly, given its unique and pricey), but it's a **** of an over-write for the errata if FFG disagree with that swap.

Secondly, and this is honestly the bigger one, it requires issuing new cards for a ship as a fix, and including them in an expansion that can't use them or doesn't need them just to distribute them, which then also requires you to buy that ship - again, which you may not want or need. Obvious counterpoint here is that they could issue them separately as a "fix pack", but then why not just issue new dials and adjust the points cost? It also sets a precedent the company may not want to follow for other ships.

The frame is poor right now, no question. The gunner slot it seems to be getting is a step in the right direction, but I'd still like to see a swap of torps for sensors, and let this thing be the literal scout vessel it was supposed to be. Heck, give it a device slot to make up for the torps. Let it poop out a mine to cover it's weak turning side, or plop out a seismic to make room for its turns.

If passive sensors wasnt on the way, this would all be a lot easier.

38 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

Not to sound condescending, but I'm very familiar with them. I took a pair of scouts (albeit built in a way that made everyone cock their head and ask questions because they were *not* normal/meta) and Palob to win a sizeable regionals back in 1e, and have played a few the new version several times to see what can and can't be done with it. I'm not the herald of "JM5K can DIAF", rather I'd like to see it back and fun. I'm not convinced anything to do with torps will allow that though. It still has a ton of potential without crutching on ordnance. I've won more games with Feedback Array on that frame than any torpedo, and that was at the height of their explodeyness.

Nobody suggested a points drop below the level that would make five possible. I even only suggested a drop of two points, and that was just by way of making something like Agile Gunner or FCS (assuming gunner and/or sensor slot) easier to purchase as compensation for the horrid action bar. Nobody wants five. I honestly don't think people even want four. If anything, if they got a sensor slot as well as gunner and kept their torpedoes, I'd be calling for an increase.

Your suggestion isn't, as you say, perfect. Its primary problem is it flies in the face of how FFG have intended to balance/fix things in the game. Firstly, it requires giving a droid slot to all ships, but that kind of nullifies part of the Punishing One title. Granted, theres a solid argument for giving up a crew slot for a second astromech slot (and I'd be ok with that, honestly, given its unique and pricey), but it's a **** of an over-write for the errata if FFG disagree with that swap.

Secondly, and this is honestly the bigger one, it requires issuing new cards for a ship as a fix, and including them in an expansion that can't use them or doesn't need them just to distribute them, which then also requires you to buy that ship - again, which you may not want or need. Obvious counterpoint here is that they could issue them separately as a "fix pack", but then why not just issue new dials and adjust the points cost? It also sets a precedent the company may not want to follow for other ships.

The frame is poor right now, no question. The gunner slot it seems to be getting is a step in the right direction, but I'd still like to see a swap of torps for sensors, and let this thing be the literal scout vessel it was supposed to be. Heck, give it a device slot to make up for the torps. Let it poop out a mine to cover it's weak turning side, or plop out a seismic to make room for its turns.

If passive sensors wasnt on the way, this would all be a lot easier.

I do like some of your other suggestions here of different ways to help the Jumpmaster.

I never suggested giving a droid slot to all Jumpmasters, the Punishing One title does that for me. While my suggestion reverts one of the big (biggest?) problems FFG created for the Jumpmaster it is actually very thematic and builds on existing cards as well as fixes the dial.

I said make an R4 version (I called it Overclocked R4) that is dependent upon having the Punishing One title i.e. "You can only equip this card if your ship has the Punishing One title", which makes taking Punishing One more important. FFG still has a lot of time to do whatever they want to with adding a card like this to whatever expansion pack or card pack they choose.

A scum version of r4p that only on reds could be cool.

Or for a more scummy feel, 2 charges, spend 2 charges to remove a stress after any manoeuvre, whenever you gain a non lock red token, recover a charge. With the text from res chewie crew about starting with no charges.

6 minutes ago, Skitch_ said:

I said make an R4 version (I called it Overclocked R4) that is dependent upon having the Punishing One title i.e. "You can only equip this card if your ship has the Punishing One title", which makes taking Punishing One more important. FFG still has a lot of time to do whatever they want to with adding a card like this to whatever expansion pack or card pack they choose.

If they wanted to do something like this would it be a idea that they could release 4 or 5 of these droids in 1 pack that would allow for more then enough extras been sold on the 3rd market and almost immediately give everyone this card for a very small price.

Personally I think the best idea is keeping the bad dial and making it into the most unique ship in the game. FFg has done pretty well with the balance of all hyperspace ships (compared to other games and 1st edition). So I think even with that dial and staying above 41 points (to avoid 5) it's capable of being worth it even with NO cardboard fixes.

4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Or for a more scummy feel, 2 charges, spend 2 charges to remove a stress after any manoeuvre, whenever you gain a non lock red token, recover a charge. With the text from res chewie crew about starting with no charges.

The only problem I see with ideas like this is the aspect of autopick cards. In 1.0 we had stuff like PTL and Autothrusters, they basically took the EPT/Mod slots off every ship because if you didn't take them you were at a disadvantage.

I feel like if they added a droid like that the concept of "list building" gets thrown out the window and it limited the players creativeness.

5 hours ago, Skitch_ said:

I do like some of your other suggestions here of different ways to help the Jumpmaster.

I never suggested giving a droid slot to all Jumpmasters, the Punishing One title does that for me. While my suggestion reverts one of the big (biggest?) problems FFG created for the Jumpmaster it is actually very thematic and builds on existing cards as well as fixes the dial.

I said make an R4 version (I called it Overclocked R4) that is dependent upon having the Punishing One title i.e. "You can only equip this card if your ship has the Punishing One title", which makes taking Punishing One more important. FFG still has a lot of time to do whatever they want to with adding a card like this to whatever expansion pack or card pack they choose.

My apologies, I didn't see that bit and misunderstood.

I'm working under the assumption that FFG will avoid adding fix cards, but as you mention, they still have time to add the card to the box if it's a unique that matches the ship, if they haven't already decided on doing something of that style and just haven't revealed it yet. Who knows. We'll have to wait for the previews for now. I'd imagine any points or upgrade bar changes will be made public before the ship releases anyway, to generate hype for sales.

Agreed the hate for its role in 1st edition competitive scene is pretty petty, but these are Star Wars fans we are talking about. Hold a Grudge, They Will .

Granted 2nd edition was made so that the changes they made to the jumpmaster to nerf it was built into the system. So what they have done they can undo for the most part. Now they also nerfed the dial and the way turrets worked so now it is just a cheaper Lancer. Those are not going to be undone.

Honestly I would like to see what they do with the upgrade slots, They could make the slots different for each crew, Dengar gets a Gunner, Tel gets an Astromech, Manaroo has a Crew slot. Different upgrade slots for different pilots would be interesting.

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/4/22/payback/

On 4/19/2019 at 1:29 PM, NakedDex said:

I'm not convinced anything to do with torps will allow that though. It still has a ton of potential without crutching on ordnance. I've won more games with Feedback Array on that frame than any torpedo, and that was at the height of their explodeyness.

This x5000.

Torpedoes aren't the direction to go with Jumps. It's easy, but it's not fun.

On 4/19/2019 at 2:15 PM, thespaceinvader said:

A scum version of r4p that only on reds could be cool.

What if they did some sort of crew... "Desperate Navigator" would be a good name, maybe change the mechanics of the card a bit... That'd feel good to me: Punishing One has the red dice, but only non-title ones can get the dial-boost. I mean, I won't balk at a droid who can adjust difficulty of moves, but Crew might be an OK way to go.

On 4/19/2019 at 9:00 PM, Marinealver said:

Honestly I would like to see what they do with the upgrade slots, They could make the slots different for each crew, Dengar gets a Gunner, Tel gets an Astromech, Manaroo has a Crew slot. Different upgrade slots for different pilots would be interesting.

It could get a little awkward with how they wrote Punishing One, but it'd be a cool concept in general.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

https://www.fantasyflightgames.com/en/news/2019/4/22/payback/

Odd. New link, old article.

lookn at the article just you how efficient the contracted scout was plus it had an EPT slot for 25pts. barrel rolls. 360 firing arc. astromech slot. plus two torp slots? crazy good with a dial like that. no wonder it terrorized the meta. Dengaroo and Parratini or Bumpmaster... so many variants that were not only playable but super competitive.

i own 3 of this ship and want to have the option of playing them again but im sure FFG have learned their lesson and will make the 2.0 version good but not dominant. Watch this space.

+1 dice to attacks on a 360 turret, rather than +1 dice when your 90 degree turret is pointed forwards

press f to pay respect...

33 points! He currently costs exactly the same as he did in 1.0!

25 minutes ago, svelok said:

33 points! He currently costs exactly the same as he did in 1.0!

yep, only difference now is the 2.0 dial has traded its 1 and 2 hard left greens for 3 straight and 3 bank blues, lost its white left 2 sloop and has only got hard 1 red and hard 2 red turns

This all adds up to only being able to 3 bank right without stress.

so yeah, you are paying the same price for a far worse dial, a ship that stresses itself on every right turn except the 3 bank right and no longer has a 360 firing arc or astromech slot (which actually hurts a lot because there are a few astromechs that could actually balance the dial into the realms of playable again).

17 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

yep, only difference now is the 2.0 dial has traded its 1 and 2 hard left greens for 3 straight and 3 bank blues, lost its white left 2 sloop and has only got hard 1 red and hard 2 red turns

This all adds up to only being able to 3 bank right without stress.

so yeah, you are paying the same price for a far worse dial, a ship that stresses itself on every right turn except the 3 bank right and no longer has a 360 firing arc or astromech slot (which actually hurts a lot because there are a few astromechs that could actually balance the dial into the realms of playable again).

They also upped his PS/Initiative to 6 (11 or 12 in 1.0) instead of leaving it at 5 (9 or 10 in 1.0)

1 hour ago, Hiemfire said:

They also upped his PS/Initiative to 6 (11 or 12 in 1.0) instead of leaving it at 5 (9 or 10 in 1.0)

Huh? Not sure where you're getting that, PS naturally maxed out at 9 in 1.0.

2 minutes ago, MegaSilver said:

Huh? Not sure where you're getting that, PS naturally maxed out at 9 in 1.0.

I must be misremembering.

Naturally 9 max, sure. PS11 or 12 wasn't unheard of though. One of the /fo Fighters was PS12 until he had a damage card, and PS10/11 Vader wasn't unusual for a while. Heck, I ran a list for a while with both of those, and a Decoy Echo.

PS11/12 was absolutely unusual, but I6 is a good representation of it. The absolute maximum initiative you can get. I'd agree it's a bump from I5. That number is relatively rare.

Me and a friend were looking at squads today and have come up with a 210 point squad including Dengar/Manaroo/Fenn

I am going to Illegal fly it against him and see if a 5 point reduction each makes them viable. The list I will try:

Dengar - R3/P1 Title/ Proton Torps
Manaroo - Perceptive Copilot/ Adv. Proton torps
Fenn Rau

Do you think this could be something if they did get a point drop?

4 minutes ago, K13R4N said:

Me and a friend were looking at squads today and have come up with a 210 point squad including Dengar/Manaroo/Fenn

I am going to Illegal fly it against him and see if a 5 point reduction each makes them viable. The list I will try:

Dengar - R3/P1 Title/ Proton Torps
Manaroo - Perceptive Copilot/ Adv. Proton torps
Fenn Rau

Do you think this could be something if they did get a point drop?

What's the point of Manaroo?

Like, genuinely. In a world without attani mindlink what's she even actually do? 55 points (currently) to give somebody at range one a pair of focus tokens?

27 minutes ago, svelok said:

What's the point of Manaroo?

Like, genuinely. In a world without attani mindlink what's she even actually do? 55 points (currently) to give somebody at range one a pair of focus tokens?

My idea is the initial engagment let them choose to shoot a tokenless manaroo or a double focus double lock Dengar who will shoot a torps back at them. If they shoot dengar I get more Damage through, if they shoot Manaroo then Dengar is lasting longer.
After the first round of engagment Manaroo can either;

* If they shoot at Manaroo you can TL and see if anyones at R1 for a Adv. Proton torp.
* If they shoot at Dengar you can double focus again and give them Dengar as you will be able to use your Adv. Proton later on in the game.

Once she has used her torp she becomes a large base blocker, she isnt great at blocking with dial but she can get stressed to get in some great places for a Fenn Rau power punch.

She also has the option to then potentially gives Fenn a focus so he can have a TL/Focus shot against a ship Manaroo blocked.

If they somehow destroyed Fenna and Dengar before her she can still 1 forward/bank focus rotate which is 3 dice at r1 and with 2 defence dice and focus backed up with 9 health she can do a little bit of work.

I am not claiming she is good but i think her ability is useful to mess up peoples target priority as do you want to shoot Manaroo with no tokens or dengar with 2 focus's for defence?

10 hours ago, K13R4N said:

My idea is the initial engagment let them choose to shoot a tokenless manaroo or a double focus double lock Dengar who will shoot a torps back at them. If they shoot dengar I get more Damage through, if they shoot Manaroo then Dengar is lasting longer.
After the first round of engagment Manaroo can either;

* If they shoot at Manaroo you can TL and see if anyones at R1 for a Adv. Proton torp.
* If they shoot at Dengar you can double focus again and give them Dengar as you will be able to use your Adv. Proton later on in the game.

Once she has used her torp she becomes a large base blocker, she isnt great at blocking with dial but she can get stressed to get in some great places for a Fenn Rau power punch.

She also has the option to then potentially gives Fenn a focus so he can have a TL/Focus shot against a ship Manaroo blocked.

If they somehow destroyed Fenna and Dengar before her she can still 1 forward/bank focus rotate which is 3 dice at r1 and with 2 defence dice and focus backed up with 9 health she can do a little bit of work.

I am not claiming she is good but i think her ability is useful to mess up peoples target priority as do you want to shoot Manaroo with no tokens or dengar with 2 focus's for defence?

Manaroo might be just okay if these things had any kind of ability to maneuver finely and keep range control.

But they don't.

Put me in the camp of "Solid errata is necessary" in this case. I never flew or flew against Jumps in 1e so I don't care. I think every ship should be viable at some level, and I don't want it to be stuck with some certain upgrade/combo.

My proposition is to errata the title to give Punishing One a front arc of 3, and to errata Manaroo to give us literally any reason to take her. I don't think they'll errata the action bar though, sad as that makes me (since it's showing in the preview), but I could see a turret slot and a section of the rules saying turrets turn a single arc into a bow tie. Even if not, Dorsal would be worth it just for the white rotate. Palob definitely wants a turret slot too.

But don't change the dial. The devs are very proud of it and say that this is a lot closer to their original intent. I mean just read the original preview article:

Quote

There is no softer way to put this… flying the JumpMaster 5000 can be tricky. It will likely require some advanced planning. Any turn that you intend to clear a stress token, you will need to go left or go straight.

I think it will be a cool ship to fly that you'll have to be really careful with. Collision Detector could help if they give it a sensor slot. You just want to have a really good reason before you sloop or turn right.

And even with all that and a gunner slot, it needs to be cheaper.