How bad of an idea is this?

Dengar (58)
Crack Shot (1)
Contraband Cybernetics (5)
Punishing One (8)
R5-P8 (4)

Ship total: 76 Half Points: 38 Threshold: 5

Manaroo (47)
Perceptive Copilot (8)

Ship total: 55 Half Points: 28 Threshold: 5

Fenn Rau (68)
Crack Shot (1)

Ship total: 69 Half Points: 35 Threshold: 2


Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v6!s=200!115:116,,,92,,159:U.8;117:,54,,,,:;97:116,:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

Perco Manaroo is 55 points that could just be L3-37...

Dengar is solidly "fine I guess". Just being I6 makes up for a lot of problems for any ship.

I'm still thinking about Passive Sensors. The only other beefy ship that has a sensor slot and can take torpedoes is the B-Wing, so a passive sensor torp Jumpmaster would be fairly unique.

2 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

45 hp behind 2 agi is an absurd amount to chew through and most matches will just be boring bumpfests.

You can already field 6 Starwings and have room to chuck on two shield upgrades. That's 43 health behind 2 Agility, better hull to sheild ratio, more ships and better agility and smaller bases, again that is not in the meta at all.

it's the 5 large bases that are the bigger issue for me. That occupies more than 4 times the board space of those star wings, and you can trivially set 5 large bases up to block basically every possible move of a given ship.

Even three of them was some of the worst gameplay in 1e from that perspective, let alone 4 or 5. No.

16 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Errata single turret arc to bowtie. Its rotate is already red. Keeps it in line with all of the Falcons. If Outrider doesn't have a red rotate, and this does, give it a bowtie at least.

Yeah, that can't happen thematically since it only has a single gun in the first place.

Sensor and gunner slot gives generics passive sensors and Dengar FCS + Agile Gunner?

Are there any other gunners really worth taking? The generics don't want to pay for hot-shot...

32 minutes ago, svelok said:

Sensor and gunner slot gives generics passive sensors and Dengar FCS + Agile Gunner?

Are there any other gunners really worth taking? The generics don't want to pay for hot-shot...

Not really, no. It still bothers me that Scum don't have a single good carrier for Bossk gunner, he's an amazing piece, but the only good thing he might sit in is the Shadow Caster, and no slot He'd be a fantastic upgrade for that ship givent he dial.

Junkmaster will only be better with either passive sensors on the generic for a torp carrier, or with a card it can take that improves the dial.

It got nerf-batted so hard it will never recover. These are the only ways I could see it getting any play.

Giving it a turret upgrade slot, while pointless if the Dorsal Turret is equipped, would give it access to a White Turret Rotate.

11 minutes ago, It’s One Of Ours said:

Giving it a turret upgrade slot, while pointless if the Dorsal Turret is equipped, would give it access to a White Turret Rotate.

Is it though? The turret would be a second mobile arc. Or would they be forcibly locked to the same mobile arc?

I would be really interested in a ship with two single arcs.

18 hours ago, Matanui3 said:

The problem is that if you turn right, you can't rotate, and if you rotate you can't turn right. And turning right is not recommended in general because it's got relatively poor blues. Not being able to go one entire direction with a large base is so bad, since it's already really awkward to fly.

If only R4 wasn't Small Ship only...

IMHO, thank the Maker R4 isn't open to all ships. Between this and Kimogilas and ARCs, I think it'd be going too far, even with Base-Size pricing.

But I'll say it's a shame R4-P is Republic only. Having charge-based maneuver tricks seems a lot more fair, and a lot easier to deal with.

//

Sensor Slot... I'm of course worried about 3x Passive Sensors/Proton Torpedoes. Gunboats bring back hard-to-kill low-init Torpedo Spam is something which already makes me nervous, so I'd be a little apprehensive about getting the Jump back in the mix, too. Maybe it'll be fine, maybe it won't. But I don't really think it'd be a *fun* direction for them.

//

As to what I miss about Jumps from 1e, it's the Bumpmaster. The Torpedo-based versions hit too hard and were too hard to Init kill. The cooler ones were the jumps which did oddball things by taking up space, being excessively nimble for their size, and had a lot of tricks from Crew and Droid and Illicit and Talent without actually doing much damage . Are there things to bring back low-damage/high-utility Jumps?

• Dial is kinda unfixable, but there are potential options. A config for the Jump which allows charge-based difficulty reduction? Charge-based non-stressed arc rotation.
  • I find it funny that the weakness of the Jumpmaster is that it has to take a lot of stress to function, but it cannot handle stress well, but a major shortcoming of the Lancer is that it has a great dial for handling stress, but pretty much no way to leverage stress for advantage. Access to a red rotate or red movement action would be amazing on one.
• Damage is going to be low. I don't mind this. If it were a *little* easier to turn the arc on one of these, the 2-dice would be fine for what it is.
• Illicit needs help. This is widely discussed for a lot of Scum. The faction pays a premium for widespread access to a (currently) mostly-useless slot.
• Time to bring back talents on the Contracted Scouts? With Expert Handling that'd go a long way to making them kind of pesky blockers. Trick Shot could give them a few teeth, but in a way which seems like it'll still take a lot of work. The upcoming Snap Shot option could also be fun.

Price cut, Gunner slot, drastic cut to the cost of the Punishing One title to at least justify one of these on the table. Maybe an Illicit Upgrade that allows Medium or Large ships to ignore faction-only restrictions on non-limited cards? That could allow them to take the R4-P astromech in order to open up the dial.

18 hours ago, Cloaker said:

I mean, Dengar gunner becomes available in the expansion, so yeah, it would be silly not to update it.

Sidenote: Gunner Dengar is pretty good on the Scum Falcon.

9 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

• Damage is going to be low. I don't mind this. If it were a *little* easier to turn the arc on one of these, the 2-dice would be fine for what it is.

It's not like anybody uses the generic falcon, with has a real dial and twice the arc coverage. 2 dice for 46 points is just not really satisfactory.

1 minute ago, svelok said:

It's not like anybody uses the generic falcon, with has a real dial and twice the arc coverage. 2 dice for 46 points is just not really satisfactory.

I don't really mind that the Falcon isn't getting too much play, either.

I'd like for them to have more tricks, more utility. A reason to bring them to mess with an opponent's squad a bit. Or at least, enough of a justification so that someone who does bring them isn't humiliated. I don't necessarily need to see 6-0/5-1 Jump lists, but it'd be nice if there was a way to go 3-3 with something relying on a utility Jump.

However, I'm sure that if a worth-bringing crew/illicit combo were printed tomorrow, it'd be immediately playable on a Falcon. It wouldn't on a Jump.

4 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

I don't really mind that the Falcon isn't getting too much play, either.

I'd like for them to have more tricks, more utility. A reason to bring them to mess with an opponent's squad a bit. Or at least, enough of a justification so that someone who does bring them isn't humiliated. I don't necessarily need to see 6-0/5-1 Jump lists, but it'd be nice if there was a way to go 3-3 with something relying on a utility Jump.

However, I'm sure that if a worth-bringing crew/illicit combo were printed tomorrow, it'd be immediately playable on a Falcon. It wouldn't on a Jump.

I don't really mourn the loss of combo-wing, though. (Also, Trick Shot + Title Han is fine, it's just the generics that are specifically really bad.)

1 hour ago, theBitterFig said:

I'd like for them to have more tricks, more utility. A reason to bring them to mess with an opponent's squad a bit. Or at least, enough of a justification so that someone who does bring them isn't humiliated. I don't necessarily need to see 6-0/5-1 Jump lists, but it'd be nice if there was a way to go 3-3 with something relying on a utility Jump.

However, I'm sure that if a worth-bringing crew/illicit combo were printed tomorrow, it'd be immediately playable on a Falcon. It wouldn't on a Jump.

I was trying to make a utility Jumpmaster work in a list. I took Manaroo with Intimidate and Ig-D for a combo idea I had. But the end result was that something like a G-1A or HWK just fits better and helped out more. Even if I took an HWK without the Moldy Crow title.

There’s a lot that *could* be done to help the Jumpmaster a bit. The dial is crap now, for sure. But big sweeping left turns isn’t much different from how they used to fly... Just no white Segnor Loop. A turret upgrade could help the rotate turret issue, and it would be interesting to see how that would play if given two separate single-turret arcs and a gunner slot. But beyond that, I’m not sure what else to do without a v1 style “card fix”.

Can I say how obnoxious the ‘dial is terrible’ charges are? It’s got 6 blues, and white left hard turns.

Is the asymmetry challenging? Sure. But saying a ship with 6 blues, multiple turn around maneuvers, hard 1 turns is terrible? A Torrent would kill for that dial.

5 minutes ago, millertime059 said:

Can I say how obnoxious the ‘dial is terrible’ charges are? It’s got 6 blues, and white left hard turns.

Is the asymmetry challenging? Sure. But saying a ship with 6 blues, multiple turn around maneuvers, hard 1 turns is terrible? A Torrent would kill for that dial.

It cannot clear stress in one direction, and it cannot turn its dial without gaining stress. I'm not sure how this is hard to understand. The Torrent is better at clearing stress whilst going right.

The Torrent also has MORE turnaround moves, and only two more reds, generally. Its dial is if anything, worse than the Torrent, given its inability to turn right without getting stressed, which the torrent CAN do.

That alone would not have been crippling, though, but that combined with the lack of a white rotate action, the lack of a full bowtie, and a whole bunch of abilities being about front arc, makes it... terrible.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

It cannot clear stress in one direction, and it cannot turn its dial without gaining stress. I'm not sure how this is hard to understand. The Torrent is better at clearing stress whilst going right.

The Torrent also has MORE turnaround moves, and only two more reds, generally. Its dial is if anything, worse than the Torrent, given its inability to turn right without getting stressed, which the torrent CAN do.

That alone would not have been crippling, though, but that combined with the lack of a white rotate action, the lack of a full bowtie, and a whole bunch of abilities being about front arc, makes it... terrible.

I can perhaps agree with the fact the red rotate is a problem. But the dial itself is not the source of the issue. It’s the likelihood of being stressed that is.

Honestly the single arc no primary arc is probably the biggest challenge. If it had a Moldy Crow esque add a front arc option, I think the ship would be played frequently.

But I reject the very notion that the dial is the source of the trouble. For cripes sakes we have people advocating getting 5 of them. You can’t even get 5 Lambda’s, which has an objectively worse dial, less maneuverable, and 1 ago.

But I reject wholly the complaint that the dial is the problem. The combination of dial, red rotate, and no primary arc? Maybe. Dial? No.

And it’s a lot of beef to chew through. 2 agi and 9 health is serious beef. It is, point for point, one of the most defensively strong ships in the game.

The dial is not the only problem, but it is A problem. It's one of about 5 nerfs to the 1e Jump, any three of which would have been more than enough to see it left at the bottom of the heap forever:

The dial (which can be broken down into two or three sub points - the loss of the white turnaround, and the loss of the white right turns, both of which are HUGE issues, and separately the inability to clear stress going right, which would be less of an issue if it had fewer ways to GET stress, or it had retained the green LEFT turns, to give it mor than two directions in which it could clear stress, and a cat's chance in **** of getting out safely if trapped in a corner whilst stressed).

The turret being only a single arc

The title only working out the front

The lack of a gunner slot, which every other turret got (though, to be fair, it couldn't make as much use of it because, as previously noted, it lacks the bowtie to use VTG, as well as not having a native Rotate action to allow it to be equipped in the first place)

The lack of a white means of rotating the arc.

Only one of those can be fixed without card errata or fix cards.

It's defensively middling at best, because hit points and agility are not the sum total of defence. Being able to get focus/evade, multiple force, white repositioning, multiple repositioning, defensive rerolls and generally be unpredictable in manoeuvring are all extremely important in defensive play (not to mention, being able to threaten shots, which can cost offensive tokens and prevent offensive double modification by making your opponent take focus or evade tokens rather than locks). it's far from the qorst ship in the game defensively, but it's not among the best, by a long shot.

Plus, the large base makes it more vulnerable, generally, to bullseye stuff, but also easier to get into multiple arcs, especially in combination with the terrible dial and only-red reposition.

It's got a lot of beef, and that matters, but only when you bring a lot of them. A single ship with a lot of beef is an easy target. 5 is a nightmare, because you can't move, can't get tokens, they keep shooting you, and they can potentially start trading out the focus target when it starts getting damaged.

40 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

The lack of a gunner slot, which every other turret got (though, to be fair, it couldn't make as much use of it because, as previously noted, it lacks the bowtie to use VTG, as well as not having a native Rotate action to allow it to be equipped in the first place)

Lancer

7 minutes ago, Hiemfire said:

Lancer

True. And look how painfully in need of the slot that is... imagine it with Bossk...

2 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

True. And look how painfully in need of the slot that is... imagine it with Bossk...

Yep