On 8/24/2019 at 9:52 AM, micheldebruyn said:

Looks amazing.

Whomever designed the ship was a Firefly fan.

Firefly was Not my first thought but I see the similarities. When I saw the design of the Razor crest my first thought was it looks a lot like the SS-54 Halo from Filoni's clone wars bounty hunter Sugi.

On 9/7/2019 at 1:15 AM, DanteRotterdam said:

Which is disputed.

If he had come from that place it would have said so. It doesn’t.

Is it really disputed though? There is no contradictory information refuting his claim.

On 9/8/2019 at 1:52 AM, OddballE8 said:

"Alone on this one"?

Dude... we're specifically talking about how Fett (both Fetts) was "undone" as a mandalorian by Lucas because he was pissy about how much fans liked Fett, pretty much.

I mean, without Fett there wouldn't have been Mandalorians in the first place!

And The Mandalorian is being made by Filoni, who was a culprit (for lack of a better word) in what Lucas did to the Fetts, so of course he's going to keep toting that line.

But the point here is that there's just way too much inconsistency for it to make sense that Fett (at least Jango) was never a Mandalorian.

Nobody here is actually claiming that Fett IS a Mandalorian in the actual canon. We're just saying it's completely and utterly stupid that he isn't.




What we have here is basically another instance of Lucas being Lucas, but it's being brought over to Disneys canon by those who were closest to Lucas.

It's the whole "lightsabers can't be blocked by anything but lightsabers, and then I change my mind and they can and then I change my mind again and they can't" thing that lead to the dark saber.

Lucas is a great idea-man. But he's **** at maintaining consistency in his fictional universe. He's like a fickle creator god who keeps changing the fabric of reality because of his whims.

Thankfully, that won't happen much under Disney, but unfortunately it also means that some of the things he's fickled around with at the end of the Lucas canon era will carry over to Disneys canon.

Like, for example, the fact that he changed the Fetts from being Mandalorians to not being Mandalorians because "he didn't want the Mandalorians in Clone Wars to look like a bunch of vagabonds".

And this is basically one of two main reasons the Fetts are now not considered actual Mandalorians.

(The first and foremost reason (IMHO) is, of course, the fact that Lucas acts like a petulant child when fans don't see things his way. And since he only saw Fett as a disposable villain like he did Darth Maul, he got upset when fans really liked Fett and started to show interest in his background and mythos... so he changed Fetts EU background from something interesting to "he's just a clone of someone else", and then when people kinda liked Jango as well, he just went ahead and made Jango an imposter who just nicked a Mandalorian armour somewhere.)

Pretty much.

On 9/8/2019 at 6:03 PM, A7T said:

To set the record straight, canonically, the Fetts aren't Mandalorians, though there's a bit of an interesting development later on with Boba.

The most recent Character Encyclopedias ("Despite having no affiliation with Mandalore, Jango Fett wears the armored uniform that helped make the Mandalorians a dreaded name."), The Visual Encyclopedia ("Iconic Mandalorian helmets are so well made that even non-Mandalorians like Jango Fett find ways to acquire them for their own needs."}, and Scum and Villainy ("I believe Fett's equipment to be authentic, even though he is not of Mandalorian heritage.") all corroborate that the Fetts aren't of Mandalorian heritage, the latter of which having been written from an in-universe perspective by law enforcement and intelligence officials. The newest edition of the Visual Dictionary puts to print what Pablo Hidalgo said about Jango's relationship with Concord Dawn on Twitter, which he said because Ultimate Star Wars was in error ("Fett claims to have been born on the Mandalorian planet Concord Dawn, but his true history remains a mystery - just the way he likes it."). However, per Sabine's story in Rise of the Rebels, Boba's exploits as a bounty hunter ultimately only helped spread the legend that the Mandalorians were the most fearsome warriors in the galaxy, so to most people IU , he might as well BE Mandalorians.

That still depends upon what you define as being "Mandalorians". Even in Legends, Jango Fett was adopted into Mandalorian culture by Jaster Mereel. He wasn't Mandalorian by blood. The same is true with canon. No one is arguing whether Jango Fett has Mandalorian blood or whether he is from Mandalore proper. And if those are the standards you use to determine whether someone is Mandalorian, then, no, he isn't.

However, he was from a Mandalorian colony world, and embodies Mandalorian warrior culture, and lives by their way of life. By those standards, he is Mandalorian. So, once again, it comes down to a certain point of view.

27 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Is it really disputed though?

Yes.

Just now, DanteRotterdam said:

Yes.

No, it isn't. The only thing it says is that he claims to be from Concord Dawn. It does not say he falsely claims it, or that his claim is disputed by other sources. There is nothing there suggesting that he is from anywhere other than Concord Dawn.

Does this make Luke a Tatooinian, a Naboo or a Polis Massan?

Are you always this obtuse?

it literally states he is deemed a pretender and that he was disavowed. Now I could make some words bold as you seem to think that somehow carries weight but I won’t since in any typeface that literally means his story is disputed.

You know what? This is not worth anymore of my energy. If you want to believe “claims to be” means “is” then who are we to stop you?

50 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Is it really disputed though? There is no contradictory information refuting his claim.

Yeah. Yeah, there is.

51 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

That still depends upon what you define as being "Mandalorians".

What I define as being Mandalorian is the people in charge of determining such things for LFL saying whether or not a character is Mandalorian. They've said on more than one occasion that Jango isn't.

So...he isn't.

1 hour ago, Nytwyng said:

Yeah. Yeah, there is.

What I define as being Mandalorian is the people in charge of determining such things for LFL saying whether or not a character is Mandalorian. They've said on more than one occasion that Jango isn't.

So...he isn't.

And I'm going by what it actually says in canon and in the overall lore. The only universe canon dispute of Jango's heritage is an unreliable narrator in the form of Almec. We do have sources both in the current canon and in Legends which state that Jango hails from Concord Dawn, a Mandalorian colony. No one is arguing whether or not Jango is Mandalorian by blood. He isn't. However, that is not the only standard used to determine if he's Mandalorian by culture or upbringing. By those standards, Jango is Mandalorian.

1 hour ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Are you always this obtuse?

it literally states he is deemed a pretender and that he was disavowed. Now I could make some words bold as you seem to think that somehow carries weight but I won’t since in any typeface that literally means his story is disputed.

He is deemed a pretender by an unreliable narrator in the form of Prime Minister Almec, a person with his own political agenda who doesn't want to to be associated with a bounty hunter or with Mandalore's warrior past. However, there is nothing in canon which disputes Jango's claim to being from Concord Dawn. Jango has never claimed to be a true blood Mandalorian. He claims to be from Concord Dawn, a colony world. There is nothing in canon that disputes that specific claim.

12 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

There is nothing in canon that disputes that specific claim.

There's nothing that disputes Han Solo being a space pirate, and since Lando makes the claim that he is, surely Han Solo canonically has boarded other ships and robbed them.

While it might be going too far saying that Jango absolutely is not a mandalorian, any claim that he is quite literally disputed.

As mysterious backgrounds tend to be an appeal, any ambiguity is quite likely intentional and not likely to be resolved.

1 hour ago, DanteRotterdam said:

Are you always this obtuse?

I beleive this has probably been answered to your satisfaction by now.

51 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

And I'm going by what it actually says in canon and in the overall lore. The only universe canon dispute of Jango's heritage is an unreliable narrator in the form of Almec.

It’s the only comment at all on his heritage in an actual story.

52 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

We do have sources both in the current canon and in Legends which state that Jango hails from Concord Dawn, a Mandalorian colony.

We have ancillary sources in canon that he claims to be from Concord Dawn. Legends means precisely diddly/squat (read that as a fraction - diddly over squat 😏) to do with anything at this point. If however, we’re going to cling to now-non-canonical references to “prove” points regarding Fett-ish origins, we also have sources in Legends that absolutely state that Boba was Jaster Mereel, a Journeyman Protector, and that the slaver Supremor on Mandalore operated from a city built into a giant beast skeleton. But that was later overridden at least once if not more times as people just couldn’t resist layering their own takes on his history, especially after his origin as Jango’s clone was established.

59 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

No one is arguing whether or not Jango is Mandalorian by blood. He isn't. However, that is not the only standard used to determine if he's Mandalorian by culture or upbringing. By those standards, Jango is Mandalorian.

And, by the only standard that really carries any weight - that of LFL - he’s not.

19 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

There's nothing that disputes Han Solo being a space pirate, and since Lando makes the claim that he is, surely Han Solo canonically has boarded other ships and robbed them.

While it might be going too far saying that Jango absolutely is not a mandalorian, any claim that he is quite literally disputed.

As mysterious backgrounds tend to be an appeal, any ambiguity is quite likely intentional and not likely to be resolved.

I beleive this has probably been answered to your satisfaction by now.

Well, considering that in Solo itself, he did indeed engage in at least one act of piracy (the train heist), I would say, yes, Lando's statement could be true. He has committed robbery. By the same token, his statement wasn't meant as a serious accusation, but a term of endearment between friends. However, Han definitely is a scoundrel and swindler. So is Lando for that matter.

MY point regarding Jango's status as a Mandalorian or not is a matter of point of view and what standards you're using to determine that. I'm not arguing that Jango's status as a Mandalorian is not in dispute. IT most certainly is. I'm arguing that his claim to be from Concord Dawn is not in dispute. There is nothing canonically which disputes that specific claim. And it is a claim for which there is no reason for be falsified because there is no benefit from claiming to be from a backwater world most people never even heard of, particularly if you were a pretender trying to ride the coattails of the Mandalorian people, something that Jango doesn't really seem to be the type to do, nor does he have the need to do. His skills and abilities speak for themselves.

1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

It’s the only comment at all on his heritage in an actual story.

Yes, and it comes from an unreliable narrator with a political agenda. It's not from an objective source.

Quote

We have ancillary sources in canon that he claims to be from Concord Dawn. Legends means precisely diddly/squat (read that as a fraction - diddly over squat 😏) to do with anything at this point. If however, we’re going to cling to now-non-canonical references to “prove” points regarding Fett-ish origins, we also have sources in Legends that absolutely state that Boba was Jaster Mereel, a Journeyman Protector, and that the slaver Supremor on Mandalore operated from a city built into a giant beast skeleton. But that was later overridden at least once if not more times as people just couldn’t resist layering their own takes on his history, especially after his origin as Jango’s clone was established.

And, by the only standard that really carries any weight - that of LFL - he’s not.

Yes, and those were later retconned within the lore itself. And in those retcons, Jaster Mereel became Jango's adopted father. It should also be noted that those sources at the time said it was believed that he was originally jaster Mereel, and that Boba Fett had numerous possible origins, none of which were confirmed to be absolutely true or not. His history was always contradictory at that time. This was part of his mystique. No one really knew anything about him or his origins. AotC changed that and much of his conflicting history was applied to a different character who would become his father's adopted father.

59 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

He is deemed a pretender by an unreliable narrator in the form of Prime Minister Almec, a person with his own political agenda who doesn't want to to be associated with a bounty hunter or with Mandalore's warrior past. However, there is nothing in canon which disputes Jango's claim to being from Concord Dawn. Jango has never claimed to be a true blood Mandalorian. He claims to be from Concord Dawn, a colony world. There is nothing in canon that disputes that specific claim.

Now this? This I just love.

The word of one character with potentially questionable motives (who makes the only statement on a particular subject in an actual story) absolutely cannot be taken at face value.

But the assassin-for-hire? His word (that we only know of second-hand) is beyond reproach.

9 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

His skills and abilities speak for themselves.

Do they? Do they really?

He failed to kill Padme, someone known to use doubles and decoys, killing only a decoy. He subcontracts a second attempt (that also fails). Kills the subcontractor only because she’s been subdued by Jedi, using a weapon so unique that that it leads Obi-Wan straight to his front door. He fails to kill Obi-Wan, and doesn’t consider he’s being tracked. He fails to kill Obi-Wan again, then soon gets taken out by Mace, who doesn’t break a sweat doing it.

On second thought, you’re right...his skills and abilities do indeed speak for themselves. Which is why he needs the boost in street cred from claiming to be a Mandalorian.

And, we know he isn’t really one, because the people who get to make that decision have said, in no uncertain terms, that he’s not.

1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

Now this? This I just love.

The word of one character with potentially questionable motives (who makes the only statement on a particular subject in an actual story) absolutely cannot be taken at face value.

But the assassin-for-hire? His word (that we only know of second-hand) is beyond reproach.

Jango has no reason to lie about his home world. He gains nothing from it. It does nothing to boost his reputation. There’s no profit gained by lying about where he was born.

Almec has every reason to lie about Jango not being Mandalorian. He’s trying to distance himself and his people from the bloody and violent past of the Mandalorians, and Jango lives by those warrior traditions. He’s the very embodiment of them. He’s also a bounty hunter, not exactly the most “upstanding” of trades. So Almec has every reason to want to distance himself and his people from Jango by disavowing him.

1 minute ago, Nytwyng said:

Do they? Do they really?

He failed to kill Padme, someone known to use doubles and decoys, killing only a decoy. He subcontracts a second attempt (that also fails). Kills the subcontractor only because she’s been subdued by Jedi, using a weapon so unique that that it leads Obi-Wan straight to his front door. He fails to kill Obi-Wan, and doesn’t consider he’s being tracked. He fails to kill Obi-Wan again, then soon gets taken out by Mace, who doesn’t break a sweat doing it.

On second thought, you’re right...his skills and abilities do indeed speak for themselves. Which is why he needs the boost in street cred from claiming to be a Mandalorian.

The movie didn’t show all of Jango’s abilities. First off, he went toe to toe with Obi Wan, a Jedi Master,in hand to hand combat, and fought him to a draw. He also personally killed several Jedi in the arena battle singlehanded. That’s not something most “normal” (read non Force user) soldiers can accomplish. That alone speaks of great skill and ability. Further, Jango was consideredto be the best bounty hunter in the galaxy prior to his death. He didn’t need to ride the coattails of the Mandalorians.

17 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

Do they? Do they really?

He failed to kill Padme, someone known to use doubles and decoys, killing only a decoy. He subcontracts a second attempt (that also fails). Kills the subcontractor only because she’s been subdued by Jedi, using a weapon so unique that that it leads Obi-Wan straight to his front door. He fails to kill Obi-Wan, and doesn’t consider he’s being tracked. He fails to kill Obi-Wan again, then soon gets taken out by Mace, who doesn’t break a sweat doing it.

On second thought, you’re right...his skills and abilities do indeed speak for themselves. Which is why he needs the boost in street cred from claiming to be a Mandalorian.

And, we know he isn’t really one, because the people who get to make that decision have said, in no uncertain terms, that he’s not.

To be fair to Jango Fett, his entire job was to lead Obi-Wan (or some Jedi at least) to Kamino, because if no Jedi show up at Kamino to take possession of the army, Palpatine's entire plan derails.

25 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Jango has no reason to lie about his home world. He gains nothing from it. It does nothing to boost his reputation. There’s no profit gained by lying about where he was born.

Almec has every reason to lie about Jango not being Mandalorian. He’s trying to distance himself and his people from the bloody and violent past of the Mandalorians, and Jango lives by those warrior traditions. He’s the very embodiment of them. He’s also a bounty hunter, not exactly the most “upstanding” of trades. So Almec has every reason to want to distance himself and his people from Jango by disavowing him.

We’ve covered all of this already. Rather than repeating it, we can both just scroll up.

Meanwhile, we know - thanks to Lucas, Filoni, and Hidalgo (among others) - that, as much motive as you feel Almec had to lie...he wasn’t. Jango isn’t Mandalorian.

25 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

The movie didn’t show all of Jango’s abilities. First off, he went toe to toe with Obi Wan, a Jedi Master,in hand to hand combat, and fought him to a draw. He also personally killed several Jedi in the arena battle singlehanded. That’s not something most “normal” (read non Force user) soldiers can accomplish. That alone speaks of great skill and ability. Further, Jango was consideredto be the best bounty hunter in the galaxy prior to his death. He didn’t need to ride the coattails of the Mandalorians.

The movie also didn’t show him...even claiming to be a Mandalorian. Or from Concord Dawn. Or being considered “the best bounty hunter in the galaxy.” In the few stories to feature him in the current canon, we may see hints of that reputation, but not necessarily that it’s earned. How much of that reputation is legit, and how much is Traviss-style tall tales being spread about (and by?) him? Reputation deserved or manufactured...he’s not Mandalorian.

6 minutes ago, micheldebruyn said:

To be fair to Jango Fett, his entire job was to lead Obi-Wan (or some Jedi at least) to Kamino, because if no Jedi show up at Kamino to take possession of the army, Palpatine's entire plan derails.

So you’re saying Palpatine needed bait, not skill. That he was playing to the ego of a bounty hunter with an inflated reputation.

50 minutes ago, Nytwyng said:

So you’re saying Palpatine needed bait, not skill. That he was playing to the ego of a bounty hunter with an inflated reputation.

I'm not willing to go that far. But Jango's entire role in the plot can essentially be taken over by a Kaminoan pencil pusher who sends the Jedi temple a message that their army is ready fopr delivery.

On the other hand, Fett serves as a combination bait/showreel. If his reputation was inflated, he wouldn't have been picked as the clone template. He was a walking ad: Look at this warrior who can fight a Jedi Knight on even terms, and live to fight another day. And here's an entire army of them, ready to follow your orders. Although in retrospect, an entire army of Jedi killers should have set off all the alarm bells in the Jedi council.

4 hours ago, Nytwyng said:

Meanwhile, we know - thanks to Lucas, Filoni, and Hidalgo (among others) - that, as much motive as you feel Almec had to lie...he wasn’t. Jango isn’t Mandalorian.

Having given up trying to debate a dishonest debater I do think Tramp would probably repeat these same talking points to those three people as well. It looks like he is practicing for debate club instead of having an honest discussion.

8 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

Well, considering that in Solo itself, he did indeed engage in at least one act of piracy (the train heist), I would say, yes, Lando's statement could be true. He has committed robbery.

Ah yes, like the famous pirate, Jesse James. No really, Trampy, that was such a stupid argument that I'm willing to just ignore it from now on to save you the embarrassment.

8 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

By the same token, his statement wasn't meant as a serious accusation, but a term of endearment between friends. However, Han definitely is a scoundrel and swindler. So is Lando for that matter.

I'm going to assume you're not a particularly tall man, Trampy. If you were, occasionally one of the many things that go over your head would instead hit you in the face and make you reassess the situation. On the other hand, to push this metaphor further, I have the sneaking suspicion that you're in the habit of debating lying flat on the ground with your head buried in the sand. Because the willful ignorance you're displaying is not something anyone can pull of off. No, evidently, time and effort has been put into this. I'd be impressed if it wasn't so sad.

Eh, at least you're trying to pivot, which at least to me shows that you know you're wrong and not insane, just dishonest enough to refuse to admit it. For your sake, I hope you're a troll.

If Tramp hasn't yet established his credentials as willfully, unreasonably pedantic to a point of embarassment, I don't know what else he has to do. He's bonafide in my book.