1 hour ago, whafrog said:You know what would be a braver story about Palpat ine? Explore just WTF he is so upset about. Not hugged enough as a child? Brother killed his dog? Formula fed? L ead pois oned? Or just a serial killer with broken genetics?
I don't think he's upset about anything, he's just evil. Sheevy is evil, he knows it, and he loves every second of it. I would like to know just what the **** he was looking for in the unknown regions tho. . .
12 hours ago, AnomalousAuthor said:Mayhaps if Rian Johnson hadn’t killed JJ’s big bad halfway through movie #2...
Man, if only JJ had asked him to stop....oh wait, what's this *checks notes* JJ has repeatedly praised TLJ, up to and including expressing a desire to have been the director of Johnson's script? Huh....funny that.
8 minutes ago, jivjov said:Man, if only JJ had asked him to stop....oh wait, what's this *checks notes* JJ has repeatedly praised TLJ, up to and including expressing a desire to have been the director of Johnson's script? Huh....funny that.
Don't you know, all positive opinions are bought with Disney money; all negative opinions are objective truth.
3 hours ago, penpenpen said:Now, Rian Johnson on the other hand probably didn't feel the need to coddle his audience in that way, and in my opinion TLJ is the stronger film for it. Like TESB, it yanks the carpet out from under us and defies our expectations. Hence why some people don't like it. Some . Not all. Not even the majority.
TLJ killed the sequel era for me, but that's just one man's opinion. The glaring errors and problems that I see might not be issues for others, I can respect difference of opinion. But please don't try and sell the idea that it is a small minority of people that feel the same, this is clearly not true. From the 44% fan rating on rotten tomatoes reviewed by hundreds of thousands of fans, to the protest against solo that caused it to bomb in the wake of the fans issues with TLJ. If we are going to speak about things as objective facts and not opinions, then that is where disagreement ends and a realization of truth needs to set in. Regardless how we feel, the truth of the divisive elements of TLJ are not only a minor forgettable bump in the road.
Last thing I’m going to say about TLJ in this thread is that mistakes were made. Johnson decided not to further flesh out the threads JJ started in TFA, instead opting to “subvert expectations” and throw them out the window. After TLJ, we should've known who Snoke was and why he existed. Instead, RJ killed him off, leaving a gigantic void in JJ’s intended storyline. Kylo was never intended to be the big bad, nor did he show that he was worthy of it in TLJ. Quite the opposite in fact; Kylo regressed into a sniveling little emo brat. After picking through the wreckage of TLJ, JJ doesn’t have the time to properly introduce a new big bad, and since he doesn’t appear to want to force Kylo’s character into it, nor continue RJ’s pessimistic Star Wars parody, he’s got little choice but to find one that we are already familiar with. Enter Palpatine.
Or, ya know, maybe Palpatine is just an evil force ghost.
Edited by AnomalousAuthor9 minutes ago, Khazadune said:From the 44% fan rating on rotten tomatoes reviewed by hundreds of thousands of fans, to the protest against solo that caused it to bomb
Gentlemen, we have achieved first contact with the mirror universe!
20 hours ago, Stan Fresh said:Eh, I hope not. Dude's a murderously violent psycho stalker incel type. The movie better not tell people watching it that what he did in the last couple movies was some beautiful cry for help that the women in his life that he killed and hurt should respond to. That would be messed up in all kind of ways.
I don't like bringing Earth political concepts to bear on a galaxy far far away, at least not in the ham-fisted way you're doing. Free will just doesn't work the same way in the Star Wars universe. One slip down the dark path and forever will it dominate your destiny. I consider conflicted dark-siders like Vader and Kylo Ren more like "dark side addicts" who need help kicking a bad habit that's taken control of their lives, rather than genuinely evil people through and through. That is how the Star Wars series has consistently portrayed such characters, and I would hate to see that change just because the late 2010s have become an era of sanctimonious moralizing in American public life.
3 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:I don't like bringing Earth political concepts to bear on a galaxy far far away, at least not in the ham-fisted way you're doing.
Good thing Lucas & the other creators have already done that for me.
4 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:That is how the Star Wars series has consistently portrayed such characters, and I would hate to see that change just because the late 2010s have become an era of sanctimonious moralizing in American public life.
I'm not part of American public life; I'm not even American.
Pardon me, I should have said "Western" rather than "American"
It's interesting, I don't see this sort of fixation on progressive cultural politics among non-Americans very frequently. Except in the UK, I suppose. Are you British? Have you spent much time in English-speaking countries? Genuinely curious.
Just now, DaverWattra said:Pardon me, I should have said "Western" rather than "American"
As a Yugoslavian, I'm of course as Western as they come...
6 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:Good thing Lucas & the other creators have already done that for me.
This gets to what I meant by "ham-fisted." There's a big difference between saying "Some aspects of Star Wars are an allegory for contemporary politics" (which Lucas has said) vs saying "Star Wars characters must be judged by the standards prevalent on one side of present-day politics," which is what you're saying.
2 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:This gets to what I meant by "ham-fisted." There's a big difference between saying "Some aspects of Star Wars are an allegory for contemporary politics" (which Lucas has said) vs saying "Star Wars characters must be judged by the standards prevalent on one side of present-day politics," which is what you're saying.
What "one side"? Are we even on the same continent? Where I live, politics are vastly different from the US. We don't have that sort of binary division that American politics has.
Edited by Stan Fresh9 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:As a Yugoslavian, I'm of course as Western as they come...
Yugoslavia is debatably a part of the global West; the eastern border of "the West" is often drawn at the border of the Western Roman Empire, which is now the eastern border of the former Yugoslavia.
Edited by DaverWattra4 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:Yugoslavia is debatably a part of the global West; the eastern border of "the West" is often drawn at the border of the Western Roman Empire, which is now the eastern border of the former Yugoslavia.
You can just admit that your preconceptions led you astray, you don't have to get ridiculous.
Just now, Stan Fresh said:You can just admit that your preconceptions led you astray, you don't have to get ridiculous.
So you learned the term "incel" on the streets of Sarajevo? Surely not. I imagine you encountered it from reading English-language media.
It wasn't my point to identify you personally as Western, I was identifying the ideas you were bringing into the conversation as political concepts of Anglo-American origin.
9 minutes ago, DaverWattra said:So you learned the term "incel" on the streets of Sarajevo? Surely not. I imagine you encountered it from reading English-language media.
It wasn't my point to identify you personally as Western, I was identifying the ideas you were bringing into the conversation as political concepts of Anglo-American origin.
Calling Kylo an incel is pretty much the height of hyperbole anyway. He’s much more your garden variety petulant emo type with mommy and daddy issues. He’s a brat who desperately wants to be edgy and darkside, but worries that he’s not evil enough, so he constantly lashes out to prove to himself that he is.
Edited by AnomalousAuthor1 hour ago, Khazadune said:TLJ killed the sequel era for me, but that's just one man's opinion. The glaring errors and problems that I see might not be issues for others, I can respect difference of opinion. But please don't try and sell the idea that it is a small minority of people that feel the same, this is clearly not true. From the 44% fan rating on rotten tomatoes reviewed by hundreds of thousands of fans, to the protest against solo that caused it to bomb in the wake of the fans issues with TLJ. If we are going to speak about things as objective facts and not opinions, then that is where disagreement ends and a realization of truth needs to set in. Regardless how we feel, the truth of the divisive elements of TLJ are not only a minor forgettable bump in the road.
User reviews on RT are a worthless metric. They had no safeguards in place to prevent review bombing, no way to know if reviewers had even seen the film in question, nothing to stop people from making dummy accounts solely to rate it low.
TLJ haters ARE the minority. an A- CinemaScore, near-universal critial acclaim, over a billion dollars at the box office, and being the highest selling Blu-ray release of the year doesn't lie.
If you personally didn't like it, that's fine, no one movie is going to please everyone. But spinning your own dislike as evidence of an organized campaign to make Solo underperform or evidence that everyone else in the world hates it too....that's just being a conspiracy theorist. Solo's failings were in the marketing. They released up against the biggest marvel movie of all time (at the time), and had the most tepid media presence of any Star Wars film to date. And before all of that, it had the problem of ballooning its own budget by reshooting half the film at the eleventh hour.
55 minutes ago, AnomalousAuthor said:Last thing I’m going to say about TLJ in this thread is that mistakes were made. Johnson decided not to further flesh out the threads JJ started in TFA, instead opting to “subvert expectations” and throw them out the window. After TLJ, we should've known who Snoke was and why he existed. Instead, RJ killed him off, leaving a gigantic void in JJ’s intended storyline. Kylo was never intended to be the big bad, nor did he show that he was worthy of it in TLJ. Quite the opposite in fact; Kylo regressed into a sniveling little emo brat. After picking through the wreckage of TLJ, JJ doesn’t have the time to properly introduce a new big bad, and since he doesn’t appear to want to force Kylo’s character into it, nor continue RJ’s pessimistic Star Wars parody, he’s got little choice but to find one that we are already familiar with. Enter Palpatine.
Or, ya know, maybe Palpatine is just an evil force ghost.
If JJ or Kathleen Kennedy or anyone at LucasFilm really though Johnson was screwing things up badly, we would not have gotten the TLJ that came to theaters. We literally have hard evidence of what happens when the suits don't like what a director is doing. They get canned, and replaced with a competent workhorse that'll knock things together to their satisfaction on time. Maybe Rian Johnson's ideas for TLJ didn't mesh with any of the original plans...but his ideas were well received enough to make it on screen. The very idea that Johnson secretly cranked out TLJ under the cover of darkness and released it to a global audience, blindsiding JJ Abrams and Kathleen Kennedy, forcing them to rummage through the closet of old villains is preposterous.
Edited by jivjov8 hours ago, jivjov said:User reviews on RT are a worthless metric. They had no safeguards in place to prevent review bombing, no way to know if reviewers had even seen the film in question, nothing to stop people from making dummy accounts solely to rate it low.
TLJ haters ARE the minority. an A- CinemaScore, near-universal critial acclaim, over a billion dollars at the box office, and being the highest selling Blu-ray release of the year doesn't lie.
If you personally didn't like it, that's fine, no one movie is going to please everyone. But spinning your own dislike as evidence of an organized campaign to make Solo underperform or evidence that everyone else in the world hates it too....that's just being a conspiracy theorist. Solo's failings were in the marketing. They released up against the biggest marvel movie of all time (at the time), and had the most tepid media presence of any Star Wars film to date. And before all of that, it had the problem of ballooning its own budget by reshooting half the film at the eleventh hour.
If JJ or Kathleen Kennedy or anyone at LucasFilm really though Johnson was screwing things up badly, we would not have gotten the TLJ that came to theaters. We literally have hard evidence of what happens when the suits don't like what a director is doing. They get canned, and replaced with a competent workhorse that'll knock things together to their satisfaction on time. Maybe Rian Johnson's ideas for TLJ didn't mesh with any of the original plans...but his ideas were well received enough to make it on screen. The very idea that Johnson secretly cranked out TLJ under the cover of darkness and released it to a global audience, blindsiding JJ Abrams and Kathleen Kennedy, forcing them to rummage through the closet of old villains is preposterous.
I never said that they werent aware of what he was doing. They made a mistake by giving him the freedom that they did and Solo paid for that mistake. I saw TFA 5 times in theaters and TLJ 2 times total (once on opening weekend and once on Netflix). I waited until Solo was in the cheap theater before seeing it because of how aweful TLJ was. There wasn’t a conspiracy to tank Solo, just an alienated portion of their fan base that did it all on their own.
Now, claiming that TLJ RT score was a conspiracy... that’s rich. The majority of people I’ve talked with about TLJ didn’t care for it. 3 of my friends did and boy oh boy does one of them pester me about it. I don’t particularly like talking about it, but they seem to think that they can convert me. He’s one of my dearest friends, but it’s annoying.
Solo was a mixed bag, but it did more for me than TLJ did. Lando was fantastic and the second half of the film was darned good. TLJ was just bad.
Edited by AnomalousAuthorIt's not just TLJ's RT score. Literally the entire user review section of RT should always be treated with high suspicion. Anything even the slightest bit divisive is going to lead to a bunch of nonsense. It's like twitter bots that way. You didn't like TLJ. That's fine. Nobody's telling you you can't like it. But the folks at LucasFilm loved it, loved it enough to give Johnson three more movies. If they didn't love it, they would have canned him. If he was going too far off the rails, they would have canned him.
6 minutes ago, AnomalousAuthor said:The majority of people I’ve talked with about TLJ didn’t care for it.
Yeah that's how statistics works.
Just now, jivjov said:It's not just TLJ's RT score. Literally the entire user review section of RT should always be treated with high suspicion. Anything even the slightest bit divisive is going to lead to a bunch of nonsense. It's like twitter bots that way. You didn't like TLJ. That's fine. Nobody's telling you you can't like it. But the folks at LucasFilm loved it, loved it enough to give Johnson three more movies. If they didn't love it, they would have canned him. If he was going too far off the rails, they would have canned him.
Let’s see how that goes. If IX doesnt live up to box office expectations Rian may not get that chance. There’s a long way between now and then. Honestly, giving Rian his own toys to play with may work out. He can go crazy and do what he likes, but he fumbled hard on the main saga and created this mess.
Just now, Stan Fresh said:Yeah that's how statistics works.
Nice to see that you never change... Keep stirring that pot.
3 hours ago, whafrog said:Maybe if JJ hadn't created a new big bad with no reason to exist...maybe maybe maybe. Whatever. We already have a "big bad", it's Kylo, and at least according to E8 he has a reason. Why does there need to be another layer?
1
Do you truly believe that Ben Solo was intended as a villain? by the end of ep IX he will live amending his past errors or sacrifice himself correcting his mistakes. That was clear from the first movie (at least for me). In order to do that, you need a big evil and manipulative mastermind.
Idk if it was intended or not to kill Snoke on ep VIII, but since they are willing to bring The Senate back for ep IX, it's clear that Ben will turn to the light side.
5 minutes ago, AnomalousAuthor said:Let’s see how that goes. If IX doesnt live up to box office expectations Rian may not get that chance. There’s a long way between now and then. Honestly, giving Rian his own toys to play with may work out. He can go crazy and do what he likes, but he fumbled hard on the main saga and created this mess.
His movies have been mentioned multiple times at celebration...and he never fumbled, nor created a mess....