1 hour ago, Darth Sanguis said:

An excellent write up!

I would note that prior to the battle of Jakku the Imperial Remnant left a bad taste in the pro Imperial systems through the usage of operation Cinder.

Thank you! 😁

I entirely forgot about Cinder.

I love the idea of Imperials loyal to the Empire (perhaps even to the Imperial Senate) and those loyal to the Emperor.

There is a surprising amount of political nuance in the aftermath of Endor and the lead up to the sequels that simply needs to be addressed in a novel head on.

I think once The Rise of Skywalker comes out we’re going to see a slew of novels that cover all of this.

Just now, Forresto said:

Thank you! 😁

I entirely forgot about Cinder.

I love the idea of Imperials loyal to the Empire (perhaps even to the Imperial Senate) and those loyal to the Emperor.

There is a surprising amount of political nuance in the aftermath of Endor and the lead up to the sequels that simply needs to be addressed in a novel head on.

I think once The Rise of Skywalker comes out we’re going to see a slew of novels that cover all of this.

I really hope so. (bloodlines touched on it pretty heavy). One of the things that's driving me crazy is the assumption that the First Order is just the Empire and the Resistance is just the Rebellion. I get that they share people, resources and a ton of imagery, but they're just not the same.

I love the idea of the First Order in comparison to the Empire. The young money of the series. They inherited all the tech and power of their daddy but haven't the discipline or education to understand how to use it. The First Order just ends up being a really well dressed train wreck.

2 hours ago, Forresto said:

Based on your premise there would already be a World War 3.

Context matters as the circumstances going into Episode IX are entirely different to Episode VI.

The circumstances of VI

The Empire succeeded the Republic in order to stabilize, secure, and bring peace to the galaxy in the wake of the horrific Clone Wars. With most of the recognizable forms of Republic remaining after the transition such as the Senate, I doubt many viewed the new order as being all that different from the old. The Empire had the inherent legitimacy of the millennia old government that preceded with none of the baggage.

In canon (Jedi Fallen Order most recently) we know life on the core worlds barely changed and that the Emperor wisely kept the important systems and people happy. Between propaganda, agreement on policy, and the average socialized loyalty to government I would imagine a great many normal people liked the Empire. After all as we hear in Rogue One, atrocities committed by the Empire are covered up.

I like the rule of thirds in these situations. A third loyal, a third who just wants to live their life (therefore more prone to the status quo), and a third rebellious. A clunky but fair assement I think.

For the duration of Imperial rule there is peace, unless you’re resisting their policy. Along comes the Rebel Alliance bringing back war for the first time since the Clone Wars. They claim they will reestablish the Republic and after the dissolution of the Imperial Senate their ranks swell. However the Rebels are arguably proposing a new government entirely, because remember many people will likely still view the Empire as the Republic 2.0.

When the Emperor dies much of the Galaxy is caught in whiplash. It’s a civil war after all and the people on the losing side are now stuck under the rule of what might be viewed as an illigimate coup. We know these Imperial loyalists essentially form half the political landscape in the New Republic.

Circumstances of the Sequels and IX

Well Jakku happens so remnants of the Empire flee to the unknown regions and eventually evolve into the First Order. It’s important to note that the First Order could make the case that not only are they successors to the Empire, the “legitimate” galactic government, but to the prior Republic as well.

The New Republic. From the start they are deadlocked in partisan politics and fail to hold much influence beyond the core and inner rim. Crime blossoms as scum take advantage of the ineffectual, demilitarized government. Apparently even Imperial Warlords are allowed to maintain control over territories in the outer rim.

Enter the First Order, supported by the pro Imperial denizens of the galaxy, with a claim to the lineage of the galactic government. It wouldn’t be surprising if after thirty years of instability many in the middle would remember the peaceful rule of the last fascist regime and support their successors.

I have a feeling the ruthlessness of the First Order amplified through Kylo is going to be the wake up call to turn galactic favor against authoritarian governments for a good long while.

Going into IX the galaxy is in a far different state than it was going into VI.

My concern is that the ending of TLS/RotJ will be a small group of freedom fighters toppling the leadership of the dominant government and dealing a noticeable but not crippling blow to the military might. Insert greedy officers-turned-warlords making grabs for the loyalty of the remaining military forces and carving their own little kingdoms out.

The freedom fighters won’t have a method in place to convince the warlords to join them so they will take over the inner regions. They won’t have leverage to do so quickly either as the inner regions have no clear reason to favor them. Same or similar to RotJ. JJ has a habit of rehashing old ideas instead of making new ones from scratch.

Wierdly, the one thing that makes me hope/think I’m wrong is the shot of all the ships behind the Falcon. If the movie involves them going system to system to gather allies, then that shot can be the actual gathering of forces. THAT scenario opens up the option for a political UN/Federation to be created where member states are motivated this time. They can possibly skip the whole warlords step as the member states will work together to prevent those pocket kingdoms from forming.

I have avoided spoilers or digging in too deep. So if there’s been promo material hinting one way or another, I’m unaware.

Also, nice writeuo

30 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

48 minutes ago, Forresto said:

Thank you! 😁

I entirely forgot about Cinder.

I love the idea of Imperials loyal to the Empire (perhaps even to the Imperial Senate) and those loyal to the Emperor.

There is a surprising amount of political nuance in the aftermath of Endor and the lead up to the sequels that simply needs to be addressed in a novel head on.

I think once The Rise of Skywalker comes out we’re going to see a slew of novels that cover all of this.

I really hope so. (bloodlines touched on it pretty heavy). One of the things that's driving me crazy is the assumption that the First Order is just the Empire and the Resistance is just the Rebellion. I get that they share people, resources and a ton of imagery, but they're just not the same.

I love the idea of the First Order in comparison to the Empire. The young money of the series. They inherited all the tech and power of their daddy but haven't the discipline or education to understand how to use it. The First Order just ends up being a really well dressed train wreck.

I do wonder what direction Star Wars will go after 9. Seems like their old model was to just randomly pick a time frame and then make a book or comic on it and then repeat. The only time they focused a lot of material together was when they promoted a movie coming out that year. An okay method since it seems they are playing the long game and expanding every part of the universe slowly.

I do wonder with no movies in the future if they try to do a concentrated push and big events that use just the comics and books...................... Most like they will stick to the old way they been doing it for the past few years and just switch the main focus from movies to TV.

The big area I would like to see them focus on would be the war after 9 and whatever they are doing with Thrawn. With the most likely defeat of the First Order leadership and the collapse of the New Republic the situation past 9 would be very cool to explore. As for Thrawn cannot tell if they are spinning their wheels or not. I would like to think they are saving him to be the big event past 9 that would include that major threat beyond the rim.

32 minutes ago, Church14 said:

My concern is that the ending of TLS/RotJ will be a small group of freedom fighters toppling the leadership of the dominant government and dealing a noticeable but not crippling blow to the military might. Insert greedy officers-turned-warlords making grabs for the loyalty of the remaining military forces and carving their own little kingdoms out.

The freedom fighters won’t have a method in place to convince the warlords to join them so they will take over the inner regions. They won’t have leverage to do so quickly either as the inner regions have no clear reason to favor them. Same or similar to RotJ. JJ has a habit of rehashing old ideas instead of making new ones from scratch.

Wierdly, the one thing that makes me hope/think I’m wrong is the shot of all the ships behind the Falcon. If the movie involves them going system to system to gather allies, then that shot can be the actual gathering of forces. THAT scenario opens up the option for a political UN/Federation to be created where member states are motivated this time. They can possibly skip the whole warlords step as the member states will work together to prevent those pocket kingdoms from forming.

I have avoided spoilers or digging in too deep. So if there’s been promo material hinting one way or another, I’m unaware.

From what I seen they do not really get into the politics in this movie. Which means a lot of wiggle room for books and comics to go into.

I have said this a few times in the forum, but I like the idea that Disney grand plan was to have a small reboot of the franchise and pretty much repeat everything Legends did with the franchise after 6 with just new people.............I mean we know they were just doing random stuff to see what would stick, but accidentally walking into a idea can count for something?..............Right?

• That UN/Federation idea you have is genius!!!! Can't be the New New Republic lol, and it fixes the old system problems.
• Same could be applied with Rey and the New Jedi Order that fixes all the mistakes that the PT books love to hit us over the head with.
• Not sure how I feel about no warlords, but maybe they go with a united galaxy against whatever is lurking behind the outer rim? The FO is based somewhere out there as well as other threats Thrawn has told us about.
• Really seems like a good place to put all the characters they have on hold and really let them shine. Ahsoka, Jacen, Sabine, Thrawn, and Ezra all come to mind. As well as many of the Resistance leadership they created in the new books and comics. Shriv, Casterfo, Aftab and Yendo could be the core of the new military or government body.

I would just be happy if they address what happens sooner rather then later. Got a gut feeling they will go for a lot of stuff before 7 and will be years before we get anything after 9.

U-Wing

Hi R2 👋🏻

On 10/1/2019 at 9:53 AM, Forresto said:

Perhaps it’s uneccesary but I think it’s important to lay out the fanbases’s mood in the Disney era given we’re talking about whether JJ stuck the landing with TFA.

-

The consensus on “The Force Awakens” was extremely positive the first month it was out.

I remember because a month after release was about the time when the realization of how much it was a remake of “A New Hope” hit like a brick wall for a lot of people. But there wasn’t much anger even then except for some haters.

Then “Rogue One” came out and was also beloved except for a few people. Hype was building. The mood going into “The Last Jedi” was electric.

Yet “The Last Jedi” is when that building joy in the community fractured. For some it was because of the film. I think for most it was because of how toxic a lot of the haters made the community, toxic even for people who rationally disliked the film. It was the classic mentality of “It wasn’t enough I didn’t like the film, I have to ruin it for everyone so they know my pain”. And they did.

“Solo” went under the radar for many even in the community. But it’s well liked. Not beloved like “Rogue One” but it’s got its fans. More importantly it showed that Disney is dedicated to maintaining the authentic feel of the franchise.

What’s interesting though is how the more footage and images that come out of “The Rise of Skywalker”, the less hate you hear. The hopeful vibe seems back again. Or at least the toxic fans have been pushed out of major forums leaving us normal fans alone.

-

To answer the original point. I’m not sure I think JJ stuck the landing with TFA. I think it’s a brilliant movie tainted by Starkiller Base and a lack of in universe political context. However what is unarguable is how happy and hopeful most fans were for the first three years of this Disney era and “The Force Awakens” undeniably started that vibe.

Its telling that the chief complaint made about “The Last Jedi” is that it somehow betrayed the setup of “The Force Awakens”. An odd complaint if TFA is hated.

The word toxic is often used to describe people who are just passionate about something and not afraid to share their opinion. It's over used. People who use it are usually just taking it personally that something they are passionate about and like is not liked and bashed by other people.

I think being called a "hater" or "toxic" by other people really has no meaning at this point. If you want to call someone "toxic", that would be the head of Lucasfilm or a certain director who bashes fans as hating females or other bs. That's toxic.

I'm fairly certain toxic is also accurate.

I think it's pretty funny that repeatedly "bashing" a director, actress/actor, department head, or the things they produce is just "being passionate" but when someone labels the person who's bashing as being toxic they're "taking it personally".

lol

I think there may be some cognitive dissonance about which behaviors make a person "toxic".

Essentially, I think people who "bash" anyone tend to be toxic, but since toxic is just a slang word for people who have a negative effect on those around them, I'd look into some of the lists people have made outlining the behavior. This is one I pulled up from google:

• You're left feeling emotionally exhausted after an encounter with them. ...
• They try to intimidate you to get their way. ...
• They try control you by guilt tripping. ...
• They are easily jealous. ...
• They can't take 'no' ...
• They constantly see themselves as a victim. ...
• They give backhanded compliments. ...
• They have no respect for boundaries.
  
  I can't vouch for every person who bashes on Star Wars stuff, but these seem to fit most of them I've seen.
  
  It's funny, back before Star Wars, comic books/heroes, TTGs, and others "nerdy" things joined the mainstream people who constantly bashed things and the fans of said things were just considered bullies. 🤔

10 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I'm fairly certain toxic is also accurate.

I think it's pretty funny that repeatedly "bashing" a director, actress/actor, department head, or the things they produce is just "being passionate" but when someone labels the person who's bashing as being toxic they're "taking it personally".

lol

I think there may be some cognitive dissonance about which behaviors make a person "toxic".

Essentially, I think people who "bash" anyone tend to be toxic, but since toxic is just a slang word for people who have a negative effect on those around them, I'd look into some of the lists people have made outlining the behavior. This is one I pulled up from google:

• You're left feeling emotionally exhausted after an encounter with them. ...
• They try to intimidate you to get their way. ...
• They try control you by guilt tripping. ...
• They are easily jealous. ...
• They can't take 'no' ...
• They constantly see themselves as a victim. ...
• They give backhanded compliments. ...
• They have no respect for boundaries.
  
  I can't vouch for every person who bashes on Star Wars stuff, but these seem to fit most of them I've seen.
  
  It's funny, back before Star Wars, comic books/heroes, TTGs, and others "nerdy" things joined the mainstream people who constantly bashed things and the fans of said thing were just considered bullies. 🤔

This, my good man. It is unfortunate, that we so quickly forget stuff like this. I am no saint, but I really kind of got turned off star wars communities after TLJ, because of the dumpster fire they turned into after that movie. Even this forum, Wich is about plastic ships and throwing dice, got a little rough there for a hot second.

Just now, Noosh said:

This, my good man. It is unfortunate, that we so quickly forget stuff like this. I am no saint, but I really kind of got turned off star wars communities after TLJ, because of the dumpster fire they turned into after that movie. Even this forum, Wich is about plastic ships and throwing dice, got a little rough there for a hot second.

I'm certainly not innocent in that regard. But I am actively trying to not be a jerk.

14 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I'm certainly not innocent in that regard. But I am actively trying to not be a jerk.

Well now that we've gotten all serious, I don't know what else to say. QUICKLY. SOMEONE POST A FUNNY MEME TO BREAK THE UNCOMFORTABLE SILENCE!!!!

Just now, Noosh said:

Well now that we've gotten all serious, I don't know what else to say. QUICKLY. SOMEONE POST A FUNNY MEME TO BREAK THE UNCOMFORTABLE SILENCE!!!!

Caught you FFG! Tryin' to sneak back into the forums!

I wish those that hate tlj/jj/ryan/kathleen/the new characters/Disney so much would just leave the community. Clearly Star Wars really isn’t something they’re into. I wish they’d spend their time discussing a fictional universe or story/movie/show that they enjoy rather than trying to destroy something so many of us still love.

and to the Disney haters, you are toxic. Your hatred isn’t going to affect Disney or Kathleen Kennedy or Rian Johnson( he just came out with a great film, you have not hurt his career like you hoped), it’s only bothering the fans and occasionally one of the performers like the woman who played Rose. (Shame on those people btw)

1 minute ago, ninclouse2000 said:

I wish those that hate tlj/jj/ryan/kathleen/the new characters/Disney so much would just leave the community

I wouldn't go this far, I just wish they'd learn to cope and accept it for what it is. Like, how is this the first time you experienced disillusionment? It's exhausting to go into the community when someone is persistently "bashing" stuff. Like, either I try to have a constructive conversation that just boils down to an argument anyways. Or end up avoiding topics altogether because I'm tired of being the bad guy for explaining how certain things aren't actually plot holes and fit within establish canon, or extend some lore to give things plausibility just to be outright ignored or insulted because they wanted to be mad.

At this point I have to fight the urge to outright dismiss any critiques of the new stuff, even if they're completely valid, because of how fast folks escalate.

6 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

It's exhausting to go into the community when someone is persistently "bashing" stuff. Like, either I try to have a constructive conversation that just boils down to an argument anyways. Or end up avoiding topics altogether because I'm tired of being the bad guy for explaining how certain things aren't actually plot holes and fit within establish canon, or extend some lore to give things plausibility just to be outright ignored or insulted because they wanted to be mad.

At this point I have to fight the urge to outright dismiss any critiques of the new stuff, even if they're completely valid, because of how fast folks escalate.

Hey look, it's a 100% accurate representation of how I feel whenever I engage with anyone about Star Wars these days. I could just never put it into the right words.

The exhaustion has left me in a state where I feel I can't talk about Star Wars with anyone anymore because all anyone wants to do is drive the conversation to those same, repetitive and exhausting topics.

17 minutes ago, Darth Sanguis said:

I wouldn't go this far, I just wish they'd learn to cope and accept it for what it is. Like, how is this the first time you experienced disillusionment? It's exhausting to go into the community when someone is persistently "bashing" stuff. Like, either I try to have a constructive conversation that just boils down to an argument anyways. Or end up avoiding topics altogether because I'm tired of being the bad guy for explaining how certain things aren't actually plot holes and fit within establish canon, or extend some lore to give things plausibility just to be outright ignored or insulted because they wanted to be mad.

At this point I have to fight the urge to outright dismiss any critiques of the new stuff, even if they're completely valid, because of how fast folks escalate.

Yea you’re right. They shouldn’t be ostracized. Maybe I wish they’d follow the “if you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say anything at all” rule we all learned as kids. I don’t understand how they can spend so much time on something they hate so much.

3 minutes ago, ninclouse2000 said:

Yea you’re right. They shouldn’t be ostracized. Maybe I wish they’d follow the “if you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say anything at all” rule we all learned as kids. I don’t understand how they can spend so much time on something they hate so much.

I think they feel like it is a more defining trait, than likeing it. The whole 'im a big fan of x, but I really hated x:y it really ruined it for me.' along with all the inferred let me just bash you over the head with how wrong you are.

4 minutes ago, ninclouse2000 said:

Yea you’re right. They shouldn’t be ostracized. Maybe I wish they’d follow the “if you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say anything at all” rule we all learned as kids. I don’t understand how they can spend so much time on something they hate so much.

That would be me. I hold a dislike of the sequels and try not to talk about it outside of respectful discussion with people I trust. There are too many people and arguments that I don't want to be associated with otherwise.

Be careful not to lump "haters" into one group defined by the worst, most shrill subset.

22 hours ago, daggertx said:

The word toxic is often used to describe people who are just passionate about something and not afraid to share their opinion. It's over used. People who use it are usually just taking it personally that something they are passionate about and like is not liked and bashed by other people.

I think being called a "hater" or "toxic" by other people really has no meaning at this point. If you want to call someone "toxic", that would be the head of Lucasfilm or a certain director who bashes fans as hating females or other bs. That's toxic.

This response isn’t intended to be condescending, I just want to be as clear as possible so we all understand eachother. I would also likewise refer to Darth Sanguis’s excellent response.

———

Examples of toxic behavior I’ve noticed:

-Attacking another person rather than their opinion/argument.

-Attacking an actor/director/writer rather than their work/performance.

-Being insulting or otherwise displaying abusive behavior toward others, especially those who disagree with you.

-Intolerance and hostility toward opposing ideas.

-Diminishing or invalidating someone with an opposing idea.

-Overpersonalizing (i.e. If you aren’t part of the problem the comment isn’t about you.)

-Actively adding to a negative atmosphere that makes others feel uncomfortable to express themselves honestly in.

-Willingly stewing in negative environments or otherwise getting off on negativity.

-Disliking a character because of race, gender, religion, etc...

-A sense of superiority over others.

———

I would point out that if you haven’t even noticed the cesspool that most Star Wars sites became in the wake of The Last Jedi, it’s rather telling of where you sat in the fan base.

It should go without saying that it’s okay to dislike or be disappointed in something and to express that. You can legitimately dislike Rey without being sexist.

However many of the examples of toxic behavior I gave above were on full display by a lot of fans that gave little room for opposing thoughts and genuine discussion.

The things I’ve been called for simply saying I like The Last Jedi on forums I cant post here without being locked, which IRL would have sparked a physical altercation.

Now I will not deny that I have occasionally seen people using the word toxic inappropriately to shut down or win an argument.

This raises the fundamental problem regarding “The Last Jedi”: There is no right or wrong*. It’s a subjective piece of art that resonates with each person differently.

———

*Well someone is wrong if they misrepresent or alter what is shown onscreen. For example you can’t argue Luke killed the Emperor in VI or that Rey used Anakin’s lightsaber in VII. Those are facts that cannot be bent.

7 hours ago, Forresto said:

*Well someone is wrong if they misrepresent or alter what is shown onscreen. For example you can’t argue Luke killed the Emperor in VI or that Rey used Anakin’s lightsaber in VII. Those are facts that cannot be bent.

One of them is, anyway. Anakin killed the Emperor, not Luke (saving him from directly killing anyone in the franchise on-screen.)

Pffft.

If anything killed ol’ Palps it was gravity.

3 hours ago, LTD said:

Pffft.

If anything killed ol’ Palps it was gravity.

Hey. Gravity didn’t do jack to Palpatine. A sudden high velocity impact against Imperial DuraSteel killed Palps.

Darkside Rey should be named Darth Reyge.

Darth Maul = Maul

Darth Sideous = Insidious

Darth Plaguis = Plague

Darth Tyrannus = Tyranny

Darth Reyge = Rage

————

I rest my case 😁