5 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Ten bucks, this is watching a Hyperspace jump.

What if Kylo holds whatever ship it is in the hanger? Force Unleashed style.

8 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Ten bucks, this is watching a Hyperspace jump.

Like this ?

On 8/26/2019 at 5:19 PM, RobertK said:

To no one in particular...

Your over-speculation is your weakness.

Once you start down the path of developing your own story, forever will it dominate your view of the ACTUAL story.

And if you follow that path anyway, don't be too proud of the overwrought terror you've constructed. The power to bring in your own beloved lore is insignificant...next to the power of the Mouse.

But in seriousness, can't we just accept the teaser trailers as a teaser and wait for the movie to tell the story rather than trying to knit together your own.

This all day.

And with the new trend of subverting archetypes and expectations in stories JUST to do it (instead of trying to add to the story or characters) we should all go into the theater with zero expectations, no hope, and not a single preconceived notion.

Seriously, JJ hasn’t stuck a landing yet. I can’t see this being the moment he turns that trend around.

10 hours ago, Forresto said:

What if Kylo holds whatever ship it is in the hanger? Force Unleashed style.

Nah, it's blasting off and he's bracing himself with the force.

3 hours ago, Flavorabledeez said:

Seriously, JJ hasn’t stuck a landing yet. I can’t see this being the moment he turns that trend around.

Really strongly disagree. Kylo Ren and Finn were expertly executed characters in TFA, and at least Kylo Ren remained as such in TLJ.

Everybody’s a critic.

Everybody’s got a megaphone.

Very few have a rational perspective of how far visual sci-fi storytelling has come.

8 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

Really strongly disagree. Kylo Ren and Finn were expertly executed characters in TFA, and at least Kylo Ren remained as such in TLJ.

When I said “stick a landing” I was referring to wrapping up stories he’s been involved in.

I agree with your points for those two characters. There was a lot of promise there.

18 minutes ago, Flavorabledeez said:

When I said “stick a landing” I was referring to wrapping up stories he’s been involved in.

I agree with your points for those two characters. There was a lot of promise there.

There is a lot of promise. Kylo Ren is the franchise's best character, by far.

Finn, who knows. He had his full arc in TFA. He was fine in TLJ though.

As for wrapping up the stories... Hey, we'll see. This is Star Wars, and it's what he's a fan of.

15 hours ago, Captain Lackwit said:

There is a lot of promise. Kylo Ren is the franchise's best character, by far.

Finn, who knows. He had his full arc in TFA. He was fine in TLJ though.

As for wrapping up the stories... Hey, we'll see. This is Star Wars, and it's what he's a fan of.

I’m worried JJ is gonna pull his mystery box nonsense again. In TFA his mystery box was Luke Skywalker. If you had never seen Star Wars, what would TFA tell you about Luke?

1)He trained Kylo Ren

2)he is a Jedi

3)He was training Jedi and quit after failing

That’s it IIRC. What is a Jedi and why do they matter? Dafuq is the force? He relied heavily on other movies to fill in gaps. Which is dumb and weird considering he did some pretty solid work with quickly establishing Han, Finn, Poe, and Rey and their capabilities

If he had good writers, I’d still be okay. JJ is extremely good at polishing the **** out of his movies. He doesn’t produce anything that looks half-assed or incomplete. He just can’t write an ending to save his life. He needs good writers.

...but he has the guys who wrote the Jurassic World movies. You know, the solidly okay but completely unmemorable big, noisy summer blockbusters?

1 minute ago, Church14 said:

I’m worried JJ is gonna pull his mystery box nonsense again. In TFA his mystery box was Luke Skywalker. If you had never seen Star Wars, what would TFA tell you about Luke?

1)He trained Kylo Ren

2)he is a Jedi

3)He was training Jedi and quit after failing

That’s it IIRC. What is a Jedi and why do they matter? Dafuq is the force?

If he had good writers, I’d still be okay. JJ is extremely good at polishing the **** out of his movies. He doesn’t produce anything that looks half-assed or incomplete. He just can’t write an ending to save his life. He needs good writers.

...but he has the guys who wrote the Jurassic World movies. You know, the solidly okay but completely unmemorable big, noisy summer blockbusters?

I mean I enjoyed the new Jurassic Park films, but maybe I'm just a stupid tasteless bim.

But nobody I have ever known who watched TFA first and had no star wars experience prior ever asked what a Jedi was. They seemed to have a decent idea. While it's safe to underestimate people, it's not safe to discredit them entirely.

Kylo Ren wields a lightsaber, and is very powerful in the force. He is even proficient in his use of his nigh immeasurable power, and that's something we learn from what he shows us, not tells us. We learn what a Jedi COULD be, through Kylo Ren, but know he's a corrupted version of it. Then Rey starts using The Force, and in her crowning moment, ignites the classic lightsaber EVERYBODY knows, solidifying her place in the force as a hero, a Jedi, and from that point the viewer realizes.

Oh.

She's what a Jedi is.

And she is, absolutely. Especially by the end of TLJ.

JJ's storytelling in TFA was fantastic, if not some of the best of the franchise, rivaling RoTS and ESB, but the latter- well, that's very hard to beat, and only TLJ comes close, quite frankly

47 minutes ago, Captain Lackwit said:

I mean I enjoyed the new Jurassic Park films, but maybe I'm just a stupid tasteless bim.

But nobody I have ever known who watched TFA first and had no star wars experience prior ever asked what a Jedi was. They seemed to have a decent idea. While it's safe to underestimate people, it's not safe to discredit them entirely.

Kylo Ren wields a lightsaber, and is very powerful in the force. He is even proficient in his use of his nigh immeasurable power, and that's something we learn from what he shows us, not tells us. We learn what a Jedi COULD be, through Kylo Ren, but know he's a corrupted version of it. Then Rey starts using The Force, and in her crowning moment, ignites the classic lightsaber EVERYBODY knows, solidifying her place in the force as a hero, a Jedi, and from that point the viewer realizes.

Oh.

She's what a Jedi is.

And she is, absolutely. Especially by the end of TLJ.

JJ's storytelling in TFA was fantastic, if not some of the best of the franchise, rivaling RoTS and ESB, but the latter- well, that's very hard to beat, and only TLJ comes close, quite frankly

I enjoyed the Jurassic World films. They were fun but immensely forgettable. I thoroughly enjoyed TFA. I think it aged fine. I just wish they had added a couple of lines explaining why Luke matters, what the force is, and what the Jedi were.

Maz could have easily thrown in a single line when she talks about the the fight against evil. Something referencing that the Jedi were once the guardians against evil or blah blah blah. This solidifies why Luke, a Jedi, matters so much.

I liked the storytelling in TFA and usually defend it. I just don’t like that Luke is the only character where they relied on knowledge outside the film to establish why he mattered.

Perhaps it’s uneccesary but I think it’s important to lay out the fanbases’s mood in the Disney era given we’re talking about whether JJ stuck the landing with TFA.

-

The consensus on “The Force Awakens” was extremely positive the first month it was out.

I remember because a month after release was about the time when the realization of how much it was a remake of “A New Hope” hit like a brick wall for a lot of people. But there wasn’t much anger even then except for some haters.

Then “Rogue One” came out and was also beloved except for a few people. Hype was building. The mood going into “The Last Jedi” was electric.

Yet “The Last Jedi” is when that building joy in the community fractured. For some it was because of the film. I think for most it was because of how toxic a lot of the haters made the community, toxic even for people who rationally disliked the film. It was the classic mentality of “It wasn’t enough I didn’t like the film, I have to ruin it for everyone so they know my pain”. And they did.

“Solo” went under the radar for many even in the community. But it’s well liked. Not beloved like “Rogue One” but it’s got its fans. More importantly it showed that Disney is dedicated to maintaining the authentic feel of the franchise.

What’s interesting though is how the more footage and images that come out of “The Rise of Skywalker”, the less hate you hear. The hopeful vibe seems back again. Or at least the toxic fans have been pushed out of major forums leaving us normal fans alone.

-

To answer the original point. I’m not sure I think JJ stuck the landing with TFA. I think it’s a brilliant movie tainted by Starkiller Base and a lack of in universe political context. However what is unarguable is how happy and hopeful most fans were for the first three years of this Disney era and “The Force Awakens” undeniably started that vibe.

Its telling that the chief complaint made about “The Last Jedi” is that it somehow betrayed the setup of “The Force Awakens”. An odd complaint if TFA is hated.

3 hours ago, Church14 said:

I’m worried JJ is gonna pull his mystery box nonsense again. In TFA his mystery box was Luke Skywalker. If you had never seen Star Wars, what would TFA tell you about Luke?

1)He trained Kylo Ren

2)he is a Jedi

3)He was training Jedi and quit after failing

That’s it IIRC. What is a Jedi and why do they matter? Dafuq is the force? He relied heavily on other movies to fill in gaps. Which is dumb and weird considering he did some pretty solid work with quickly establishing Han, Finn, Poe, and Rey and their capabilities

To be fair, it is called Star Wars Episode 7. I get what you mean, but then again, I never watched any Harry Potters movies, but I would not start with the 7th one (is there even seven Harry Potter movie?) and expect the movie to explain to me who is Harry Potter and what exactly is a wizard, and consider it a flaw if the movie doesn't explain it. I would if it was the first episode or a stand alone movie, but not from the seventh episode of a saga.

On 10/1/2019 at 8:57 AM, Captain Lackwit said:

I mean I enjoyed the new Jurassic Park films, but maybe I'm just a stupid tasteless bim.

I go easy on the Jurassic Park/World narrative issues due to the severe lack of dinosaur films, I can be nitpicky with sci-fi movies because there's so many.

On 10/1/2019 at 10:53 AM, Forresto said:

Perhaps it’s uneccesary but I think it’s important to lay out the fanbases’s mood in the Disney era given we’re talking about whether JJ stuck the landing with TFA.

-

The consensus on “The Force Awakens” was extremely positive the first month it was out.

I remember because a month after release was about the time when the realization of how much it was a remake of “A New Hope” hit like a brick wall for a lot of people. But there wasn’t much anger even then except for some haters.

Then “Rogue One” came out and was also beloved except for a few people. Hype was building. The mood going into “The Last Jedi” was electric.

Yet “The Last Jedi” is when that building joy in the community fractured. For some it was because of the film. I think for most it was because of how toxic a lot of the haters made the community, toxic even for people who rationally disliked the film. It was the classic mentality of “It wasn’t enough I didn’t like the film, I have to ruin it for everyone so they know my pain”. And they did.

“Solo” went under the radar for many even in the community. But it’s well liked. Not beloved like “Rogue One” but it’s got its fans. More importantly it showed that Disney is dedicated to maintaining the authentic feel of the franchise.

What’s interesting though is how the more footage and images that come out of “The Rise of Skywalker”, the less hate you hear. The hopeful vibe seems back again. Or at least the toxic fans have been pushed out of major forums leaving us normal fans alone.

-

To answer the original point. I’m not sure I think JJ stuck the landing with TFA. I think it’s a brilliant movie tainted by Starkiller Base and a lack of in universe political context. However what is unarguable is how happy and hopeful most fans were for the first three years of this Disney era and “The Force Awakens” undeniably started that vibe.

Its telling that the chief complaint made about “The Last Jedi” is that it somehow betrayed the setup of “The Force Awakens”. An odd complaint if TFA is hated.

Since the backlash to The Last Jedi, I've been thinking a lot about how the Sequel Trilogy has been received. I think it is very interesting from a sociological point of view to try to understand why some people love them but others hate them. It's the same movie, but seen completely differently by both sides.

One thing that I realised recently, is that since the Original Trilogy, the Sequel trilogy is the first time that fans have completely new material, that fans absolutly know nothing about where it is going.

When the Prequels trilogy came out, it was exploring the past of the saga. While there was a lot of new things (and boy did it not got received well...), overall we the fans already knew where it was going. We knew that ultimatly Palpatine would take the power and become the Emperor, we knew that Anakin would get corrupted and become Darth Vader, we knew that most jedi would die but that Yoda and Obi-Wan would survive, we knew there would be a Clone Wars. What we didn't knew, was the how.

Fast forward to the Disney era, outside the Sequel trilogy we got Rogue One and Solo. Again, both those movie was about something we already knew. We knew that by the end of Rogue One the rebels would get the Death Star plans and give it to Leia. In Solo, we knew that we would see Han successfully make the Kessel Run, that he would meet Chewbacca and that by the end of the movie he would get the Falcon. Again, what we didn't knew was the how.

Now for the Sequel trilogy. Before Episode 7, we knew absolutley nothing. We didn't knew the new main characters, the state of the galaxy, how we got from 6 to 7, and how ultimatly the trilogy will end. We didn't knew (and still don't) we it is going. We knew nothing. Contrary to all other Star Wars movies since the OT, all we can do is speculate. And I think that's where the complaint about 'The Last Jedi' is about when they say that it betrayed the setup of 'The Force Awaken'. I think that some people, in the two years gap between both movies, put so much emphasis on trying to guess what was coming that when they saw that it didn't go this way, they didn't accept it. There is a school of thought that believe, that since the Special Edition in 90ies, some fans think that they know better than the creators. No Georges, Han shot first. No Georges, midichlorians should not be a thing. And now, no JJ and Rian, Luke should not be depressed. Broken expectations. Some accept that a story can go in an entirely different direction than what they expected, some don't. And when they don't, some can take it really personnal (especially in the case of Star Wars where we are all passionates) and then try to find every flaws possible to validate their stance.

JJ did what he had to do with Episode 7. He setted the story without taking any real risk. He made a movie that felt like Star Wars without breaking any important Status Quo. Ryan Johnson got the hard part. He's the one that had to take real risk a dared to took real decisions to break the Status Quo for the story to move forward. The best exemple I think is Luke. Ryan is the one that gets all the blame for where Luke is at in Episode 8, even though it was already established in Episode 7. Even though that's also what Georges would have done if he was still in control.

I personnally can't wait for Episode 9, but quite frankly I'm also interested to see how the fans will react to it.

2 minutes ago, Red Castle said:

I personnally can't wait for Episode 9, but quite frankly I'm also interested to see how the fans will react to it.

Agreed. 10,000%

1 hour ago, Red Castle said:

No Georges, Han shot first.

I still prefer the original “Han murdered a guy.” None of this silly shootout. Just casual murder and tipping the bartender.

On 10/1/2019 at 8:52 AM, Church14 said:

I’m worried JJ is gonna pull his mystery box nonsense again. In TFA his mystery box was Luke Skywalker. If you had never seen Star Wars, what would TFA tell you about Luke?

1)He trained Kylo Ren

2)he is a Jedi

3)He was training Jedi and quit after failing

That’s it IIRC. What is a Jedi and why do they matter? Dafuq is the force? He relied heavily on other movies to fill in gaps. Which is dumb and weird considering he did some pretty solid work with quickly establishing Han, Finn, Poe, and Rey and their capabilities

If he had good writers, I’d still be okay. JJ is extremely good at polishing the **** out of his movies. He doesn’t produce anything that looks half-assed or incomplete. He just can’t write an ending to save his life. He needs good writers.

...but he has the guys who wrote the Jurassic World movies. You know, the solidly okay but completely unmemorable big, noisy summer blockbusters?

This is exactly what I’m talking about. Add in his penchant for open and unsatisfying endings and boom: let’s all just go see this one for the visuals

Having read the latest set of plot leaks for the movie, I gotta say, my earlier post is jumping right to mind...

That is, like, for 100% sure what happened, here. If those details are even HALFWAY true, the Onager as we see it in the game just doesn't fit into the setting at all.

I just don’t understand the hate that some people in this thread have for jj abrams. I’ve enjoyed his tv shows and movies. Maybe the haters should raise millions of dollars and go make their own movie and see how good it is before they cry about jj.

13 minutes ago, ninclouse2000 said:

I just don’t understand the hate that some people in this thread have for jj abrams. I’ve enjoyed his tv shows and movies. Maybe the haters should raise millions of dollars and go make their own movie and see how good it is before they cry about jj.

I agree, he wrote/directed a lot of generally beloved things. Alias, Fringe, Super 8. Sure he also had some duds like Lost but there is no director/writer that I like that only created things I like.

Let's look at two of the greatest, in my opinion. John Carpenter who made Halloween, the Thing, In the Mouth of Madness and the Fog and James Cameron who made Terminator 2 and Aliens, two of the greatest films of all time. But they too had some real stinkers. E.g. Escape from LA for Carpenter and all the other bad Terminator sequels for Cameron.

I really think the hate JJ gets here is not very justified.

1 hour ago, ninclouse2000 said:

I just don’t understand the hate that some people in this thread have for jj abrams. I’ve enjoyed his tv shows and movies. Maybe the haters should raise millions of dollars and go make their own movie and see how good it is before they cry about jj.

It’s not so much that he isn’t competent. It’s that he isn’t inspired or creative from what I’ve seen. He’s the guy you bring in to polish the **** out of a product till it shines, not the guy you hire to design it.

Your “go out and raise millions and do it yourself” comment is just kind of a dud. Every comment like it is. I’m not a mechanic and would take far longer than it should to swap out engines, but I’m perfectly capable of determining that they forgot to hook the coupler and driveshaft to the flywheel.

Likewise, I’m not a writer, but I can tell when whomever writes and directs the movie have completely ignored cinematic time, physics, logic, etc.

On 10/2/2019 at 5:20 PM, Red Castle said:

Since the backlash to The Last Jedi, I've been thinking a lot about how the Sequel Trilogy has been received. I think it is very interesting from a sociological point of view to try to understand why some people love them but others hate them. It's the same movie, but seen completely differently by both sides.

I read something years ago that basically said the human brain is wired to venerate the old & look unfavourably on the new. In essence, the reason why ‘things were so much better in the old days’ is so common (even when they weren’t).

But in fairness, both the new films aren’t great.

On 10/1/2019 at 11:25 AM, Red Castle said:

To be fair, it is called Star Wars Episode 7. I get what you mean, but then again, I never watched any Harry Potters movies, but I would not start with the 7th one (is there even seven Harry Potter movie?) and expect the movie to explain to me who is Harry Potter and what exactly is a wizard, and consider it a flaw if the movie doesn't explain it. I would if it was the first episode or a stand alone movie, but not from the seventh episode of a saga.

I don't think the Episodic numbers matter here. Keep in mind that most of us started with Episode 4 and it did a **** fine job of establishing lore. I didn't need to see Episodes 1 through 3 to have an understanding of 4 (thank god eh).

Beyond that, The Harry Potter movies came out over a span of 10 years. There were 32 years between episode 6 and episode 7. People were born, raised, and had their own children in the gap between those movies. Just as Episode 1 introduced the concept of Star Wars to an entirely new set of people, the same is true for Episode 7. For a lot of people, Episode 7 was their first introduction to Star Wars.

Going one step further, it's pretty common for people to come into a series late. Is saw 1-5 needed to understand 6? I'd argue for Star Trek movies, you are better off skipping Star Trek 1 (original series movies). Star Trek 7 doesn't even have the same cast or characters as 5 of the previous movies, and doesn't lose anything if you don't watch those. A lot of people won't even show their children Ep1-3 when introducing them to star wars.

So really, the fact that Episode 7 was the 7th movie in the series is pretty meaningless when it comes to establishing lore.