Regardless of which scene you do or don’t want cut, there was plenty of time to streamline this film.

22 minutes ago, TauntaunScout said:

Regardless of which scene you do or don’t want cut, there was plenty of time to streamline this film.

This I 100% agree!

On the bright side the fact that they rushed two movies into this makes me think all the extra merterial will be really good. Jedi Finn, Darth Revan, Janna being Lando's daughter, or the fact that the FO maybe lost 4 star destoryers in the whole movie and still going strong.

After watching this movie I realized how much I can't stand the prequals, but they made some of the best spinoff stuff! I think Star Wars movies may be the weak link and have been for a long time?

Either way I can't wait for the games, comics, books, and all the stuff FFG can do with this series.

10 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

Yeah sequel. I thought TLJ was way better than TFA but I never meet anyone who agrees.

Really, most on this forum have been praising that film in my experience.

I personally think it's both the worst star wars movie if not the worst sequal ever made, up there with blues Brothers 2000.

After seeing RoS, I really have new respect for TLJ. TLJ is still in my top five least favorite movies of all time. I mean, the character choices and just lack of respect for established lore and the physics of the universe were astoundingly bad. From space bombs, to using hyperspeed as a weapon, to having the hero of the OT who refused to kill his own utterly evil father actually attempt to kill his nephew in his sleep. The bad storytelling is strong in that one. But, oh my. At least it was a movie with a cohesive underlying timing device. Sure, it's that they are running out of space gas. But, the movie flowed from point to point. Bad character choices and all, you could tell that at least Rian had read cinematography for dummies.

Fast forward to JJ's recent effort. Sure, the character choices were probably a little bit better and more true to Star Wars. But, man did he just crap the bed on cohesion of storytelling. In the scene on waterworld, right after the fight, the heroes of the Resistance are suddenly teleported to their HQ planet. After their brief scene, the story drops back to waterworld where Kylo is still pouting. Unless they bent time and space, which I guess the force can do now, then that timing makes zero sense. Speaking of the Force, man did he destroy that. It's so all powerful now that without a retcon, we'll never see a KotOR that anyone that wants these movies grounded in at least some realism can enjoy. And, the acting. There was zero emotion throughout it all. The fakeout death of Chewie. Instead of tears and anguish, it was almost like JJ was there saying, "no Daisy! Don't show real emotion, remember Chewie isn't really dead..." What a flat performance.

I did go into it expecting a comedy instead of something I would enjoy. But, I will say after a weak start, about fifteen minutes in, I was worried there might be a real decent movie brewing. The beginning of the macguffin chasing that united Rey, Poe and Finn was actually pretty decent. They had synergy on screen, it was acted decently. But, after another hour of that and them ping-ponging here and there just to stop and take a dump on the limits of the Force, I was starting to get what I expected. At least we got to see the Knights of Ren, right? Oh, but wait, they attack Kylo. Are they the Knights of Ren or of Palpatine? Doesn't matter I guess, they're as dumb as they sound anyway. And, the ending, oh what an ending. Why did Rey die again? Why did Kylo save her? Better yet, why did Palpatine die? Was there some climatic battle or plot point I missed? At least we did get to see Kylo ghost Rey, that gave me a chuckle.

7 hours ago, RyantheFett said:

On the bright side the fact that they rushed two movies into this makes me think all the extra merterial will be really good. Jedi Finn, Darth Revan, Janna being Lando's daughter, or the fact that the FO maybe lost 4 star destoryers in the whole movie and still going strong.

After watching this movie I realized how much I can't stand the prequals, but they made some of the best spinoff stuff! I think Star Wars movies may be the weak link and have been for a long time?

Either way I can't wait for the games, comics, books, and all the stuff FFG can do with this series.

I hope they bury it. The sequels are complete trash and I want nothing to do with any of it. Look at the Mandolorian, Rogue One and Jedi Fallen Order for recent, great examples of where they should go. Things that exist within the timeline but don't crap all over existing characters to pimp the new crappy characters.

6 hours ago, Mokoshkana said:

I hope they bury it. The sequels are complete trash and I want nothing to do with any of it. Look at the Mandolorian, Rogue One and Jedi Fallen Order for recent, great examples of where they should go. Things that exist within the timeline but don't crap all over existing characters to pimp the new crappy characters.

Yep.. baby Yoda isn't going to be pimped out. 🙄

Jedi fallen order totally used Kyle Katarn Instead of making a new one 🙄

They aren't going to bury it.

2 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Yep.. baby Yoda isn't going to be pimped out. 🙄

Jedi fallen order totally used Kyle Katarn Instead of making a new one 🙄

They aren't going to bury it.

I think he means not causing original characters to fail so that new inserts can succeed, Luke/Anakin being clear example with Rey. Whereas Baby Yoda is just easily marketable and will very likely be used to push tons of product.

I personally don't like seeing the OT cast as failures and prefer overall where they ended up in the EU with Luke creating the New Jedi Order and bringing Jedi back, Han being a loving husband who was there for Leia, etc, etc.

Of course that isn't to say if you like the new films you can't, I prefer the EU, but if you have fun with the ST then have fun with it.

25 minutes ago, Animewarsdude said:

I think he means not causing original characters to fail so that new inserts can succeed, Luke/Anakin being clear example with Rey. Whereas Baby Yoda is just easily marketable and will very likely be used to push tons of product.

I personally don't like seeing the OT cast as failures and prefer overall where they ended up in the EU with Luke creating the New Jedi Order and bringing Jedi back, Han being a loving husband who was there for Leia, etc, etc.

Of course that isn't to say if you like the new films you can't, I prefer the EU, but if you have fun with the ST then have fun with it.

Lets look at Han and Luke from the legends continuity...

Han did nearly the exact same thing he did in the Force Awakens as he did in the New Jedi Order series - where he became despondent and an alcoholic after Chewie died. I do remember Han abandoning his family at that point.

As for Luke.. in same ways he was MORE of a failure as a Jedi Master in the Legends. How many of his students went to the dark side? Including his nephew which murdered his wife? No, he didn't go off to an island (after having his students murdered) in legends, but he made plenty of decisions that were failures.

All I'm trying to say is that the heroes from the OT and legends were not all perfect, and they had plenty of failures and failings that we saw in the sequel trilogy.

Seeing my childhood heroes not be perfect, and make mistakes and bad decisions is, at least to me, refreshing. It humanizes them to me.

31 minutes ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Lets look at Han and Luke from the legends continuity...

Han did nearly the exact same thing he did in the Force Awakens as he did in the New Jedi Order series - where he became despondent and an alcoholic after Chewie died. I do remember Han abandoning his family at that point.

As for Luke.. in same ways he was MORE of a failure as a Jedi Master in the Legends. How many of his students went to the dark side? Including his nephew which murdered his wife? No, he didn't go off to an island (after having his students murdered) in legends, but he made plenty of decisions that were failures.

All I'm trying to say is that the heroes from the OT and legends were not all perfect, and they had plenty of failures and failings that we saw in the sequel trilogy.

Seeing my childhood heroes not be perfect, and make mistakes and bad decisions is, at least to me, refreshing. It humanizes them to me.

Agreed. Han taking off once Ben went bad is a totally human thing to do. Depression and despondency can make a person do very damaging things.

"Anger. Fear. Aggression. The dark side of the Force are they. Easily they flow. Quick to join you in a fight. Once you start down the dark path, forever will it dominate your destiny."

The above quote is the reason I can believe Luke would be tempted to end Ben before he went full Dark Side. Luke had already gone down the dark path in ROTJ. There was clear anger and aggression in his fight with Vader in the throne room. Fear caused him to slip back into that realm while dealing with Ben. IMO, he caught himself just like he did in ROTJ and decided against continuing down the dark path but to me, it's totally in character (as is fleeing to the island).

Wouldn't it have been cool if they, you know, actually planned out the whole trilogy first rather than just make it up as they went along. These are billion dollar movies, why be lazy about it?

23 minutes ago, Mep said:

Wouldn't it have been cool if they, you know, actually planned out the whole trilogy first rather than just make it up as they went along. These are billion dollar movies, why be lazy about it?

And why trust co-writing to the writer of Batman vs. Superman??? Disclaimer: I haven’t seen it.

7 minutes ago, smickletz said:

And why trust co-writing to the writer of Batman vs. Superman??? Disclaimer: I haven’t seen it.

Chris must still be cashing in on that Oscar for Argo lol

1 hour ago, Mep said:

Wouldn't it have been cool if they, you know, actually planned out the whole trilogy first rather than just make it up as they went along. These are billion dollar movies, why be lazy about it?

I dunno about that... the OT wasn’t planned out in advance and that’s still the high point for me. It COULD help but I dunno that it definitely WOULD.

5 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Yep.. baby Yoda isn't going to be pimped out. 🙄

Jedi fallen order totally used Kyle Katarn Instead of making a new one 🙄

They aren't going to bury it.

The old characters were used purely to make the new characters seem powerful/cool/etc. They discarded all of them as fast as possible just to make the new ones the stars. It's a crappy writing technique. Gone are the days of Luke/Anakin and in their stead is the days of.....Palpatine? Its dumb.

Baby Yoda is clearly a marketing gimmick. But he isn't written in a way that craps all of Yoda right from jump street.

They sure buried 8 in a hurry. I don't think they will because greed is a thing, but I hope they do. Star wars is vast and there is much to explore. Go make something new.

On 12/23/2019 at 6:26 AM, TauntaunScout said:

Yeah sequel. I thought TLJ was way better than TFA but I never meet anyone who agrees.

TFA is, I think, my least favorite Star Wars.

TLJ is a solid 2 or 3 for me.

Another critique I saw of JJ that finally put into words what I've felt about him since...well, Alias:

He wants impact moments but doesn't want to deal with the consequences of those moments. So we have things like Han happens to be at Jakku with Kanja Klub and Guavian Death Gang just in time to get the Falcon back meanwhile forgetting that Kylo Ren's flag ship is RIGHT THERE. Or ending TFA with the Luke/Rey cliffhanger, forgetting that by doing so he's forcing part two to take place immediately after and rushing everything. Faking out the audience by destroying the transport but immediately retconning it.

4 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

I think he means not causing original characters to fail so that new inserts can succeed

Sorry man, but that's life. It's also baked in to the original trilogy.
Vader and Obi Wan had to fail in order for Luke to succeed.

"The greatest teacher, failure is." and "We are what they grow beyond."
Luke and Han failed, and improved through their failure. If Han hadn't been on the run and falling under the weight of his deals he never would have been there to bring Rey to the Resistance. Luke had to disappear in order to be the legend he was in the battle of Crait.

Leia did not fail. She started her guerrilla band against the orders of the Senate. She was in place to destroy the stupidity that was Starkiller base, she knew she had to keep people alive because there was no one left. Her only failures IMHO were not directly ordering the bombers back when Poe refused to return and setting her blaster for stun when he mutinied.
Heck, Poe failed more than anyone in the new cast. He is directly responsible for the deaths of most of the resistance after Starkiller Base and the destruction of most of their equipment.
(Disobeyed orders so he could gain a Pyrrhic victory against the dreadnought, refused to obey chain of command after his rightfully earned demotion, mutinied and failed to practice proper opsec after that mutiny which resulted in the First Order hearing about the hidden transport plan)

5 hours ago, Animewarsdude said:

personally don't like seeing the OT cast as failures and prefer overall where they ended up in the EU with Luke creating the New Jedi Order and bringing Jedi back, Han being a loving husband who was there for Leia, etc, etc.

Of course that isn't to say if you like the new films you can't, I prefer the EU, but if you have fun with the ST then have fun with it.

Funny enough I found the EU made sure the big three always won at the cost of almost everyone and everything else failing.

Luke lost his wife while Han/Liea lost two kids and Chewie.

The Jedi Order once again failed, but I think it was after way after Luke's death. A bit fuzzy on stuff after the death of Jacen.

5 hours ago, That Blasted Samophlange said:

Lets look at Han and Luke from the legends continuity...

Han did nearly the exact same thing he did in the Force Awakens as he did in the New Jedi Order series - where he became despondent and an alcoholic after Chewie died. I do remember Han abandoning his family at that point.

As for Luke.. in same ways he was MORE of a failure as a Jedi Master in the Legends. How many of his students went to the dark side? Including his nephew which murdered his wife? No, he didn't go off to an island (after having his students murdered) in legends, but he made plenty of decisions that were failures.

All this here!!!!

As for post 6 stuff I'm on the fence on what's the better one since both New Republics both fail.

In legends they never really beat the empire and is pretty much nonstop death and destruction for decades until the Empire/sith take over again.

The new canon has at least 20 years of peace before the FO wipe them out. The real question is what they do post 9 with the world.

3 hours ago, KalEl814 said:

I dunno about that... the OT wasn’t planned out in advance and that’s still the high point for me. It COULD help but I dunno that it definitely WOULD.

Yes and no. Having a plan is no guarantee of success but a lack of a plan is certainly a recipe for failure. There was at least an idea of where the OT was going and the plan was for 9 movies. Yeah, it changed and evolved throughout the first 3 movies, but there was at least thought put into it. Every kid knew in the early 80s that Anakin Skywalker was put into lava and turned to Darth Vader. The plan was there. The Force Awakens was just a remake of OG Star Wars and really just market research to see if anyone still cared about Star Wars or if they (Disney) just wasted 4 biils on Lucas Film. They didn't know what they bought and certainly weren't ambitious enough with the IP. My feeling is they should have planned out 6 movies, filmed the last 3 before all the old actors died and make another 3 to fill in the time between Jedi and EP 7 then put out a movie once a year for 6 years. Instead they did a remake/market research movie and would just make it up from there if it made any money. It's short sighted and lazy.

I'm not saying the new trilogy is horrible, because it isn't but they absolutely show that they were just making it up as they went along. If they first dedicated themselves to making all 3 movies and decided the end was going to be the return of the Emperor, fine, build up to that. Make the story of the other two films lead up to that. But no, they had no idea what they were doing or where things were heading. Instead its just fan service at this point. Well done fan service but no real substance.

18 minutes ago, Mep said:

My feeling is they should have planned out 6 movies, filmed the last 3 before all the old actors died

Easy there tiger. Carrie Fisher was only 60 when she passed and he death was completely unexpected.

Alec Guiness was 61 when he started work on A New Hope and lived until 86. Christopher Lee was in his 70s when he joined star wars and lived to be 93. So it's not like they were rolling long odds to have the original cast survive until the end of the sequel trilogy. Yeah, Carrie was the most likely to go due to her habits but this wasn't somebody running out their life like Jim Belushi or Chris Farley.

25 minutes ago, Mep said:

Yes and no. Having a plan is no guarantee of success but a lack of a plan is certainly a recipe for failure. There was at least an idea of where the OT was going and the plan was for 9 movies. Yeah, it changed and evolved throughout the first 3 movies, but there was at least thought put into it. Every kid knew in the early 80s that Anakin Skywalker was put into lava and turned to Darth Vader. The plan was there. The Force Awakens was just a remake of OG Star Wars and really just market research to see if anyone still cared about Star Wars or if they (Disney) just wasted 4 biils on Lucas Film. They didn't know what they bought and certainly weren't ambitious enough with the IP. My feeling is they should have planned out 6 movies, filmed the last 3 before all the old actors died and make another 3 to fill in the time between Jedi and EP 7 then put out a movie once a year for 6 years. Instead they did a remake/market research movie and would just make it up from there if it made any money. It's short sighted and lazy.

I'm not saying the new trilogy is horrible, because it isn't but they absolutely show that they were just making it up as they went along. If they first dedicated themselves to making all 3 movies and decided the end was going to be the return of the Emperor, fine, build up to that. Make the story of the other two films lead up to that. But no, they had no idea what they were doing or where things were heading. Instead its just fan service at this point. Well done fan service but no real substance.

Yeah I feel you. And I go back and forth on it. Luke and Leia’s relationship was made up on the fly. Vader’s and Luke’s was too, and that’s the emotional crux of the whole OT. If Obi-Wan’s RotJ retcon happened in 2019, twitter and reddit would never ever recover 😛

Also the prequels were much more thought out in advance than the OT and the PT and they’re... mixed at best.

So yea... it’s complicated to tell a decades long story. Cthulhu knows I couldn’t do any better.

34 minutes ago, KalEl814 said:

Also the prequels were much more thought out in advance than the OT and the PT and they’re... mixed at best.

After re watching the PT I do not know how much thought out they were. Ignoring the quality of the films AotC feels like a soft reboot of TPM. RotS also feels like it should have been two movies as well since a lot of it feels rushed.

Makes me wonder if Star Wars should have never been a three movie thing and they should of just done the same as Marvel............... Which they may be doing when they try again in two years.

1 hour ago, RyantheFett said:

After re watching the PT I do not know how much thought out they were. Ignoring the quality of the films AotC feels like a soft reboot of TPM. RotS also feels like it should have been two movies as well since a lot of it feels rushed.

Makes me wonder if Star Wars should have never been a three movie thing and they should of just done the same as Marvel............... Which they may be doing when they try again in two years.

Yeah it’s hard to say. Lucas wrote / directed all the PT flicks, not the OT. He had much more control by the time the PT was coming out and those movies were a more singular vision. Again... who knows. 😛