first: I searched the Forums and didn't find anything

I just bought Trade(armourer) and now I talked to my GM hey how is it the Cleric in our group always jams his hunting rifle can I just upgrade it to good craftmanship so it gains the reliable quality?

and then we argued alot about you can't just use it to triple the worth of that hunting rifle you would destroy the whole DH economy...

then I extensively searched the rules for... rules

but other then

Trade (armourer): Used to create and maintain armour and weapons.

and the crafting rules on page 96 which... tell you like... GM say x you roll x success yippieh failure meh....

so we tried to houserule it but we just argued on and on...

so I want to know if there are some real rules for the following:

cost for materials (in relation to finished item)

an explicit paragraph that says good/best craftmanship items do not need better or more material

how to upgrade stuff

how to maintain stuff like repairing my shield that constantly shreds to pieces (naval shield 8AP base gets torn to pieces every time cause it counts as cover and cover degrades with each hit it takes with damage in excess to it's AP)

is it just that I say I want to craft / mod a hunting rifle

then my gm says oh it costs like 100 the materials needed are worth 80 thrones I check Trade armourer ... uh a licke 14 need to underrol 44 ah it's a best craftmanship? what about the part in the rules that says must start over from scratch... I have a single roll so I cannot accumulate successes... I need to start from scratch every time I have more then 1 degree of failure (which would result in poor quality)

only thing we agreed on is that modifiers for difficulty should be related to availability I suggested the standard table with average being +0 and then do steps of 10% like the availability modifiers

then he recites I would shred the economy system... I don't even want to seel that stuff and I expect it wouldn't be worth much more then the raw materials unless it is approved by the apartmento munitorum and has some kind of sigil or stuff

just to make an example

I have int 38 and a multitool (for +10) and the trade (armourer) skill

I take a hunting rifle as material to create a hunting rifle so there should be no boni or mali to material (but the GM has to decide this)

I have (unlimited) acces to the working area of an Armatus ship (but not the servitors) so there should be no penalties to the tools, work-space or anything (but the GM has to decide this)

so I roll against a 48:

88+: failed by 5 (1+4) completely wasted the material

68+: failed by 3 wasted some of the material

58+: failed and accomplished nothing (I keep the materials but no new gun)

49+: failed by 1 > poor craftsmanship

39-48: succes common craftsmanship

29-38: 2 successes good craftsmanship

0-28: 3 successes best craftsmanship

buying a 5 point advance to my int would give me a 33 percent chance for a best craftsmanship item which is worth 10 times the materials I invested

of course I am out in the world to kill tech-heretics and spiritless machines and to search for knowledge so I don't make any more of them then I need for myself and certainly don't sell them or make profit of my talents

On principal, if your GM makes a call, accept it and do the best you can with what you're given.

In this case, though, try pointing out to the GM that economy is not solely based un the value of goods. Services have their own cost, and the reason that a best quality weapon is more expensive may not necessarily be because the materials needed are higher quality, but because the creation of the weapon to a more exacting set of standards requires the time and attention of a skilled expert who's time is, indeed, valuable.

Consider, for example, a surgeon, the amount he charges for a surgery will vastly exceed the cost of the scalpels, gauze, anesthetic, etc used in the operation. Why? Because he is charging you for his expertise. For his however many years of training he spent in school.

In the case of a weaponsmith, you can take the same materials, re-align a pin here, shave off some un-used pieces there, streamline the mechanics, (I don't really know guns) and end up with a better gun because, by taking Trade (Armourer) you have simulated a character who can create weapons better than your average manufacturer. Or, barring that, is willing to simply invest more of his time in perfectionism.

So there's my explanation. Take that to your GM, and see what he says. If he's still not convinced, I'd let it drop, and maybe consider investing in a different skill.

I made that point multiple times (as in a sonate is worth more then ink and paper and it's worth more depending on who did it and how good it is even though the price for ink and paper remains the same and then a few more examples)

we finally agreed upon a houseroule that took about 25 forum posts (10 each of us 5 from another player)

it goes more or less like this:

you have to say which quality you want to produce (and a better quality makes the item more scarce as per rules by the book)

you cannot end up with a better item then announced but with a poorer version

check modifiers:

very rare -30 (only forgeable in specialised forges/workshops probably only found on forge worlds)

rare -20 (only forgeable in a forge/workshop)

scarce -10 (only forgeable in a forge/workshop)

average +0 (only with appropriate tools (multitool counts))

common +10 (only forgeable with appropriate tools (multitool counts))

Plentiful +20 (forgeable with improvised tools)

Abundant +30 (forgeable with improvised tools)

rent a workshop/forge for your needs accounts for 20% of the items listed price (the item you announce to create)

material is 70% of the item you announce to create

good material giving a +10 bonus is worth 210% of the base item price (70% *3 for good quality)

best material giving a +20 bonus is worth 700% of the base item price (70% *10 for best quality)

which is just a guideline by which my gm decided to do the environmental and general difficulty

1 success or more -> done (more successes less time)

plain fail -> the created item is 1 quality grade below the announced one but still properly works (and can be taken appart and reassembled)

fail by 1 extra degree -> you need to start over but nothing is lost

fail by 3 degrees (2 extra degrees) 50% of the material is lost (the amount is still argued about but he is the gm so he can decide how much and probably we end in a case by case rule anyway)

failed by 5 degrees you completely scrapped/burnt/ruined the material past any usefulness you need to buy new material and start over

(the one with the one grade less is interpreted from the extra success extra quality one success less one quality grade down which by the book can only result in poor grade, rest is taken as is from the book)

the one thing not by the book is you cannot end up with a better item then intended in the book it clearly states extra successes means the quality/finish/usefullness goes up

so with few exceptions it is wise to aim for one grade better then intended (if you have the equipment) (maybe you get the lucky roll with 10 below) and end up with the item you originally wanted (normal failure) because the later outcome would be the same as if you just rolled a normal success without the additional -10 modifier (which comes from the modified availability) altough probability of material loss gets higher

so finally I can roll for the hunting rifle upgrade like this:

announce: good CM Hunting Rifle with material from Hunting Rifle (normal grade)

skill check for average item (common +1 -> average (+0)) and a multitool(+10) with int 38 I need to roll against 48

with 48+->done yeah

58+ common quality (nothing changed)

68+ no new gun but keep the material

78+ loose some material

98+ loose al of the material

or like this:

announce: best CM Hunting Rifle with material from common Hunting Rifle

skill check for scarce item (common +2 -> scarce(-10)) and a multitool (+10) I need to check against my int but I need a workshop (which can give additional boni)

against 38 int that means

38+ > done best CM nice!

48+ > good quality (like above yippieh I made what I intended to do)

58+ > no new gun but keep the material

68+ > loose some material

88+ > loose all material

I can live with that but really I think more then like 12 lines of rules for crafting skills which more or less say leave it to the GM is not asking too much

I'd agree with Crow's statement regarding the GM's say. The GM has to maintain a long view of the game and has to make calls based on the long view... players usually only have the short view in mind. Likewise, GMs also have to consider the feel and themes of their story and how a rule or ruling would affect that.

Either way, just to talk RAW, upgrading an items quality is covered in the RAW if you have the IH on pg 248 under "Improving Craftsmanship". Basically, it states that an items craftsmanship can only be improved by completely rebuilding the item. The difficulty of this is one step higher then the difficulty would be to make the item as is, but it takes one step less time to do it then crafting a new item. The cost in materials is equal to the items cost plus any additional materials as ruled by the GM. Improving an items craftsmanship in this manner can only ever raise the items craftsmanship level by 1 no matter how many DoS is scored and accumulated for the test.

thanks I'll check it out in the IH

well as is the checks are based on a gm decision (he just decided this is the pattern which he just wrote down for himself to tell me waht to roll if I ask and he can absolutely modify it on the spot as he likes)

thing is I interpret the crafting rules as you try to to your best and with one or two or whatever the amount of extra successes you generate a better item and he seriously dislikes this approach and on the other hand he wanted to make material costs for best craftsmanship items worth 10 times the normal ones... which I jsut can't agree with... but we found a compromiss somewhere... and as long as it remains fun to play I can live with it

IH page 245 using crafting skills exactly what I searched for exactly what I wanted to hear from you thanks alot.