Late to the discussion here, but with respect to Sam Hawley's book on the Imjin War, yeah, not so much. It's pretty flawed in lots of ways, partly because it's based on other people's translations of the original sources. And he's writing solely from the Korean perspective. The problem with that is that the war, though fought in Korea, was actually a war between Japan (or more accurately Toyotomi Hideyoshi) and the Ming Empire of China. Korea was just in/on the way. At least Stephen Turnbull, for his flaws, reads Japanese and does some of the original source research itself. But his books are all from the Japanese perspective, though they are more readable than Hawley. The problem with studying that war is that there are just too many sources, written from three perspectives. My own book on the war is explicitly written from the Chinese perspective, though I use Korean & Japanese sources too. The primary Korean sources from this era were written in classical Chinese, as were many of the Japanese sources.

For those of you who might be interested: https://www.amazon.com/Dragons-Head-Serpents-Tail-Commanders/dp/0806155817/ref=sr_1_1?keywords=dragon's+head+and+a+serpent's+tail&qid=1565459720&s=gateway&sr=8-1

That war does have some pretty interesting possibilities for campaign ideas, including lots of courtier intrigues, by the way. And yes, according to some sources the Japanese did use shinobi in Korea.

I was stationed in South Korea at Osan Air Basse from 2009-2011. I got to visit several of their historic sites like Hwaseong Fortress in Suwon; Haengju Fortress (Imjin War, Kwon Yule's liberation of Seoul); three of the five Royal Palaces (Kyeoungbukgung, Chandukgung, Deoksugung); a number of their temples such as Naksan, Yongju, Waawoojong, Sudok, Songwagsa, Younggung, Gapsa, Beopjusa, Silleuksa, and Munsusa; and then festivals such as the Mud Festival in Broyeong and the Cherry Blossom in Busan(Pusan) . Using that experience, I see a lot of Korean elements within the Kaito family of the Phoenix. I suspect the Isawa themselves take many elements from the Ainu people of Japan.

As posted earlier in this thread, the Koreans from a genetic standpoint are closer to the Mongolians than they are to the Japanese, intermarriage among the nobility not withstanding. They trace this connection though the Manchu People in China. Ironically, the Han Chinese are closer to the Japanese than they are to the Manchu. Look up how Hakka tombs and burial practices have many commonalities with early Yamato tombs. As for the connection between Japanese and Koreans, every noble family of Japan had at least one Korean ancestor, typically a Korean noblewoman whom the Japanese nobleman brought home as his bride. Akahito himself admitted to being a descendant of King Muryeong of Baekje through one of his daughters, with the revelation being something of a scandal among Japanese "purists".

Here is some of the connections as they relate to each other.
Mongolian-Manchu-Korean
Han Chinese-Hakka Chinese-Yamato Japanese-Ainu Japanese

One interesting aspect of Shilla Dynasty were the young men known as "Hwarang". Depending on context, that translates variously as "Flower Boy", "Flower Student", "Flower Cadet", "Flower Soldier". I prefer to translate it as "Flower Knight" due to the context of how they were sword to serve the noblewomen of the Kingdom, particularly the daughters of the King as their guardsmen, retainers, and military forces. Unlike the Samurai of Japan, the Hwarang WERE more than willing to engage in subterfuge and sabotage activities behind enemy lines using tactics similar to the Shinobi and Ninja. And of course, the Hwarang were Korea's premier cavalry.

If you have not done so, I recommend watching Korean historic Dramas such as " Seondeok Yeowang"(The Great Queen Sendeok), "Dae Jang Gum" ( The Great Jang-geum ), or "Kim Soro-The Iron King". They will give you a relatively accurate depiction of historic Korean culture, even if the writers take certain liberties with the actual events. Those might give you some ideas for adventures of your own that incorporate Korean elements into your game.

So to answer your question, I would say some of the Phoenix take after the Koreans. Though as others have pointed out, the Unicorn could also incorporate elements of Korea as well.

26 minutes ago, neilcell said:

I was stationed in South Korea at Osan Air Basse from 2009-2011. I got to visit several of their historic sites like Hwaseong Fortress in Suwon; Haengju Fortress (Imjin War, Kwon Yule's liberation of Seoul); three of the five Royal Palaces (Kyeoungbukgung, Chandukgung, Deoksugung); a number of their temples such as Naksan, Yongju, Waawoojong, Sudok, Songwagsa, Younggung, Gapsa, Beopjusa, Silleuksa, and Munsusa; and then festivals such as the Mud Festival in Broyeong and the Cherry Blossom in Busan(Pusan) . Using that experience, I see a lot of Korean elements within the Kaito family of the Phoenix. I suspect the Isawa themselves take many elements from the Ainu people of Japan.

As posted earlier in this thread, the Koreans from a genetic standpoint are closer to the Mongolians than they are to the Japanese, intermarriage among the nobility not withstanding. They trace this connection though the Manchu People in China. Ironically, the Han Chinese are closer to the Japanese than they are to the Manchu. Look up how Hakka tombs and burial practices have many commonalities with early Yamato tombs. As for the connection between Japanese and Koreans, every noble family of Japan had at least one Korean ancestor, typically a Korean noblewoman whom the Japanese nobleman brought home as his bride. Akahito himself admitted to being a descendant of King Muryeong of Baekje through one of his daughters, with the revelation being something of a scandal among Japanese "purists".

Here is some of the connections as they relate to each other.
Mongolian-Manchu-Korean
Han Chinese-Hakka Chinese-Yamato Japanese-Ainu Japanese

One interesting aspect of Shilla Dynasty were the young men known as "Hwarang". Depending on context, that translates variously as "Flower Boy", "Flower Student", "Flower Cadet", "Flower Soldier". I prefer to translate it as "Flower Knight" due to the context of how they were sword to serve the noblewomen of the Kingdom, particularly the daughters of the King as their guardsmen, retainers, and military forces. Unlike the Samurai of Japan, the Hwarang WERE more than willing to engage in subterfuge and sabotage activities behind enemy lines using tactics similar to the Shinobi and Ninja. And of course, the Hwarang were Korea's premier cavalry.

If you have not done so, I recommend watching Korean historic Dramas such as " Seondeok Yeowang"(The Great Queen Sendeok), "Dae Jang Gum" ( The Great Jang-geum ), or "Kim Soro-The Iron King". They will give you a relatively accurate depiction of historic Korean culture, even if the writers take certain liberties with the actual events. Those might give you some ideas for adventures of your own that incorporate Korean elements into your game.

So to answer your question, I would say some of the Phoenix take after the Koreans. Though as others have pointed out, the Unicorn could also incorporate elements of Korea as well.

Great stuff neilcell! I don't think the average person fully appreciates all the deep historical and cultural ties between the East Asian countries, not to mention the often contentious back stories. Cool that you hit so many historical sites in Korea when you were stationed there.

My main specialty is Chinese military history, but I also teach the other East Asian countries and have traveled around South Korea and Japan. In fact, in my office at home I have a bust of Kwon Yul and an antique Japanese woodblock of Kobayakawa Takakage, who served in the Imjin War. At work I have a silk image of Yi Sunsin on the wall, alongside posters of K-Pop, C-Pop and other music stars. I'll be teaching a whole class on the Imjin (Great East Asian War) of 1592-98 next spring at the US Naval Academy.

I agree that the K-dramas and movies, just like samurai and wuxia films, are great inspirations for adventures. Have you seen the one about the female bounty hunters from the Choson (Joseon) Dynasty? It could be easily adapted for an L5R campaign. One of the stars is the K-Pop singer Son Ga-in from Brown-eyed Girls.

5 hours ago, Masakiyo said:

Great stuff neilcell! I don't think the average person fully appreciates all the deep historical and cultural ties between the East Asian countries, not to mention the often contentious back stories. Cool that you hit so many historical sites in Korea when you were stationed there.

My main specialty is Chinese military history, but I also teach the other East Asian countries and have traveled around South Korea and Japan. In fact, in my office at home I have a bust of Kwon Yul and an antique Japanese woodblock of Kobayakawa Takakage, who served in the Imjin War. At work I have a silk image of Yi Sunsin on the wall, alongside posters of K-Pop, C-Pop and other music stars. I'll be teaching a whole class on the Imjin (Great East Asian War) of 1592-98 next spring at the US Naval Academy.

I agree that the K-dramas and movies, just like samurai and wuxia films, are great inspirations for adventures. Have you seen the one about the female bounty hunters from the Choson (Joseon) Dynasty? It could be easily adapted for an L5R campaign. One of the stars is the K-Pop singer Son Ga-in from Brown-eyed Girls.

I was flattered several times when some Korean Americans asked me to tutor their children on Korean history. While most of what I learned about Korean history was during my two years there, I could spend a lifetime in that country and still not see everything. Munsusa Temple for example had probably not seen an American since the Korean War. Little hidden gems like that are all over the country that are often overlooked, even by both Americans and Koreans living there.

No, I have not seen that one about the lady bounty hunters. I will have to look that one up. I only named three big historic dramas, but there are so many more. There is a very good reason why they are among the most popular shows on TV in Korea. A&E's most successful shows are often historic re-enactments such as "The Crossing" with Jeff Daniels as Washington. Since truth is often stranger than fiction, perhaps Hollywood should consider focusing on making historic dramas rather than this "Get Woke" crap that causes them to go broke.

I am glad to hear that our Cadets at Annapolis are going to learn about East Asian Warfare. Hopefully you can help them to appreciate why technology, tactics, terrain, and training played a major factor in Admiral Yi using just 12-15 Panokseon ships against 300 Japanese ships and was victorious in the Battle of Myeongnyang. The Korean Movie "The Admiral: Roaring Currents" is a reasonable re-enactment of that event. Bringing this back to the original post, I can totally see a small Phoenix fleet manned by Shiba Bushi, Kaito Shrine Keepers, and Asako Monks as well as their martially inclined vassals defending the straight between Kyuden/Shiro Shiba and the Castle of the Cat(Shiro Neko) against a Mantis Fleet in what essentially is a replay of Yi-sun-Shin's naval campaign against Todo Takatora. I am comfortable with Kaito Shrine keepers and Asako monks participating as "The Admiral: Roaring Currents" had Buddhist monks welding what looks like Naginatas alongside the sailors. Quite amusing to think how many Westerners would react on seeing the Swastika displayed prominently on their backs in place of a clan mon.

If you have not already, I think a quick review of two exemplars of Hwarang are worth reviewing: Kim Yushin of Gaya (grandson of Kim Soro the Iron King, the last of the Kayan Confederacy War Chiefs) and Kim Alcheon, the commander of Queen Seondeok's personal guard. Between the two of them, they conquered first Baekje, then Ko-Goreyo to unite the Peninsula. The boundary between united Baekje-Shilla and Kogoreyo was almost exactly where the current DMZ is located. Perhaps somewhere in the personal diaries of one of those two men is the answer on how to break the military stalemate in Korea today. The anecdotal stories told about both men are quite amusing. And I see elements of Kim Yushin in Akodo Toturi, both AEG before he became Emperor as well as FFG's version of him.

As for Chinese history, I am quite taken by two men. General Zuo Zongtang, Marquis of Kejing (of General Tso's chicken fame in the West), and Luo Fangbo,founder of the Lanfeng Republic on Borneo in 1774. Both men are significant in that they each failed the Imperial exams three times. Considering that nobody gets a second chance to retake the test tells you something. Tso went home to be a tea farmer while Fangbo went to Borneo to be a miner. Both rose to prominence when civil strife and upheaval put them in positions of responsibility. In Tso I see echoes of America's farmer Generals who started out as mere privates, became Mustang Officers, and eventually came to lead America's military. I would hope our cadets at Annapolis learn that even their enlisted can have brilliance and that they should learn to trust their Chief Petty Officers and Sergeants.

Anyhow, I have prattled off long enough.

2 hours ago, neilcell said:

I was flattered several times when some Korean Americans asked me to tutor their children on Korean history. While most of what I learned about Korean history was during my two years there, I could spend a lifetime in that country and still not see everything. Munsusa Temple for example had probably not seen an American since the Korean War. Little hidden gems like that are all over the country that are often overlooked, even by both Americans and Koreans living there.

No, I have not seen that one about the lady bounty hunters. I will have to look that one up. I only named three big historic dramas, but there are so many more. There is a very good reason why they are among the most popular shows on TV in Korea. A&E's most successful shows are often historic re-enactments such as "The Crossing" with Jeff Daniels as Washington. Since truth is often stranger than fiction, perhaps Hollywood should consider focusing on making historic dramas rather than this "Get Woke" crap that causes them to go broke.

I am glad to hear that our Cadets at Annapolis are going to learn about East Asian Warfare. Hopefully you can help them to appreciate why technology, tactics, terrain, and training played a major factor in Admiral Yi using just 12-15 Panokseon ships against 300 Japanese ships and was victorious in the Battle of Myeongnyang. The Korean Movie "The Admiral: Roaring Currents" is a reasonable re-enactment of that event. Bringing this back to the original post, I can totally see a small Phoenix fleet manned by Shiba Bushi, Kaito Shrine Keepers, and Asako Monks as well as their martially inclined vassals defending the straight between Kyuden/Shiro Shiba and the Castle of the Cat(Shiro Neko) against a Mantis Fleet in what essentially is a replay of Yi-sun-Shin's naval campaign against Todo Takatora. I am comfortable with Kaito Shrine keepers and Asako monks participating as "The Admiral: Roaring Currents" had Buddhist monks welding what looks like Naginatas alongside the sailors. Quite amusing to think how many Westerners would react on seeing the Swastika displayed prominently on their backs in place of a clan mon.

If you have not already, I think a quick review of two exemplars of Hwarang are worth reviewing: Kim Yushin of Gaya (grandson of Kim Soro the Iron King, the last of the Kayan Confederacy War Chiefs) and Kim Alcheon, the commander of Queen Seondeok's personal guard. Between the two of them, they conquered first Baekje, then Ko-Goreyo to unite the Peninsula. The boundary between united Baekje-Shilla and Kogoreyo was almost exactly where the current DMZ is located. Perhaps somewhere in the personal diaries of one of those two men is the answer on how to break the military stalemate in Korea today. The anecdotal stories told about both men are quite amusing. And I see elements of Kim Yushin in Akodo Toturi, both AEG before he became Emperor as well as FFG's version of him.

As for Chinese history, I am quite taken by two men. General Zuo Zongtang, Marquis of Kejing (of General Tso's chicken fame in the West), and Luo Fangbo,founder of the Lanfeng Republic on Borneo in 1774. Both men are significant in that they each failed the Imperial exams three times. Considering that nobody gets a second chance to retake the test tells you something. Tso went home to be a tea farmer while Fangbo went to Borneo to be a miner. Both rose to prominence when civil strife and upheaval put them in positions of responsibility. In Tso I see echoes of America's farmer Generals who started out as mere privates, became Mustang Officers, and eventually came to lead America's military. I would hope our cadets at Annapolis learn that even their enlisted can have brilliance and that they should learn to trust their Chief Petty Officers and Sergeants. 

Anyhow, I have prattled off long enough. 

As it so happens, my current book project is a study of Zuo Zongtang. I traveled all over China this summer visiting sites related to him, including his grave, which is outside the city of Changsha in Hunan province. And he actually passed the first two levels of the civil service exams, earning the title of juren, but never passed the final ( jinshi ) exam. He was on his way to take it again when called to service to help quell the Taiping Rebellion, the largest civil war in human history. He rose steadily through the bureaucracy thereafter, including crushing a couple massive Muslim revolts in Nprthwest China and Central Asia, becoming the most powerful military man in the empire by his death in 1885. And incidentally, you could take the civil service exams as many times as you wanted, though they were not offered every year. The working title of the book is Struggle for Empire in Nineteenth-century China: The True Story of Zuo Zongtang.

To tenuously link this back to the original thread, certainly the Korean monk soldiers, not unlike the Japanese sohei, could have Rokugani analogues in the Dragon clan or elsewhere. And the diplomacy leading up to the Imjin War is full of great stories of how the Koreans belittled the Japanese for their poor manners and lack of understanding of etiquette and protocol. If one wanted to roleplay that stuff as the backdrop to a war with one of the neighboring lands of Rokugan you could certainly find ample material in the diplomatic record. In one famous scene the Japanese envoys to Korea literally belittle the size of Korean spears. In another they remark on how Japanese samurai get white hair because of constant battle but they can't fathom how Koreans, who do nothing but drink and hang out with beautiful women, also show their age. Plenty of fodder for your Crane courtiers there.

41 minutes ago, Masakiyo said:

As it so happens, my current book project is a study of Zuo Zongtang. I traveled all over China this summer visiting sites related to him, including his grave, which is outside the city of Changsha in Hunan province. And he actually passed the first two levels of the civil service exams, earning the title of juren, but never passed the final ( jinshi ) exam. He was on his way to take it again when called to service to help quell the Taiping Rebellion, the largest civil war in human history. He rose steadily through the bureaucracy thereafter, including crushing a couple massive Muslim revolts in Nprthwest China and Central Asia, becoming the most powerful military man in the empire by his death in 1885. And incidentally, you could take the civil service exams as many times as you wanted, though they were not offered every year. The working title of the book is Struggle for Empire in Nineteenth-century China: The True Story of Zuo Zongtang.

Ah, my mistake. I remembered three exams being significant, but I guess I conflated his performance with Fangbo's. Sorry about that. Thank you for correcting me.

A piece that I have speculated but never confirmed; did General Tso serve under Dowager Empress Cixi? Her court was quite the drama show. My understanding is that she trusted nobody with power and kept most of them at each other's throats so as to keep them from even considering uniting against her. Coupled that with the dates both of them lived(Cixi 1835-1908, Regency 1861-1908; Tso 1812-1885, Tenure 1861 as provincial governor to 1884 as Viceroy) and a story that the General asked to be removed from a powerful political office because he felt he was either unqualified or he felt he was unable to execute the duties expected of him and I get the impression he was about the ONLY person Cixi trusted because he has zero ambition and hence she did not view him as a threat.

It just seems to me that the two of them should be taken into context together as I have never seen a book or online article with both of them.

Hey again--

Yes, Zuo did serve under Cixi, including for around a year as essentially the Commander-in-Chief of the Qing armies after his spectacular successes in Central Asia. He had previously met with her in court audiences concerning this campaign. He was pretty full of himself but also very blunt and straightforward and not that given to political machinations. So Cixi apparently appreciated that. There had been a huge dispute between him and Li Hongzhang over whether to even fight the Muslims in Central Asia or just give up that territory and Zuo argued forcefully to keep it lest Beijing itself be threatened. It ended up being the most successful military operation of the late Qing and Cixi "rewarded" him by posting him in the capital, though he hated it there, as it was all politics. Within a year he had taken up a position in the southeast and was improving coastal defenses. He actually had wanted to continue the war against the French in Vietnam in 1885, but peace talks ensued and Zuo died soon thereafter. But yes, he was one of the most loyal and competent Han Chinese officials of the late Qing. He is still widely revered in China today as a hero for saving Xinjiang and his other military accomplishments and lauded for his concerns for the ordinary people. But few people there have ever heard of General Zuo's Chicken...

On 4/13/2019 at 7:24 PM, Victarion13 said:

I will go a bit off topic as well.

Anyway who can suggest me a good book about Korean ancient army/weapon/warfare and strategy?

This is all I need to know about Korean warfare: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQhSXA3AKh4

They have replicas of those things at several museums in Korea. Now for L5R just think about putting a few on the Wall to help out the Crab. In fact, I think I just came up with an adventure hook for my future intrepid party of Shadowlands Warriors.

5 hours ago, The Grand Falloon said:

This is all I need to know about Korean warfare: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TQhSXA3AKh4

Reminds me of the Katyusha Rocket Launchers, aka "Stalin's Organs".