So to preface this: I like having Hyperspace. The way I understand it, Hyperspace is a more competitive format used for strict faction balance and better squad balance. Then Extended lets me do all the fun stuff I like doing, like fly all my favorite characters from Rebels or experiment with cool random Scum ships I've never seen before. I think both formats are needed, and neither can exist without the other.

Initiative vs. cost is an interesting balance issue. There's others, but this often ends up being the big debate (aces vs. swarms, etc.). As users of Strange Eons will know, FFG had a very linear 1 point per Pilot Skill thing going on in First Edition. This has largely carried over to Second Edition.

FFG stock initiative pricing works very well on stuff with no/limited reposition. Rebel Y-Wings for example: every single pilot is good (yes Y-Wings are a very good chassis and some pilots are slightly better than others, but all are relatively close). It doesn't always work out so well.

It seems weird to look at the TIE Advanced and be like "is Supernatural Vader really worth three times what a normal dude in the same ship is?" The answer is yes, he is. But not for everyone.

I think the main problem is that pricing needs to be different for different player skill levels. Note that I don't mean this in a demeaning or unkind way at all.

Some people are less experienced with the game and want to fly the main characters and do decently well, but the game is so reliant on positioning that at high levels of competitive play, the ace pilots need to cost more comparatively. For example, when I first started I really wanted to fly Boba Fett and Darth Vader and I lost a lot. It was disheartening. I used to be not very skilled at this game, I played it a ton, and then I got more skilled at the game. I'm no smarter, better, or more interesting of a person than when I was bad at the game, actually knowing how brain cells decay over time I'm probably stupider.

With the current method, I think that it is interesting that points end up needing to straddle the line between casual/new player "we need main characters to not be too hard to fly" and competitive "we need absolute balance" mindsets.

What would you think if Hyperspace added a slight tax on things that are seen as having a higher skill floor (and thus currently slightly underpriced from the perspective of a more experienced player), and Extended made these things slightly cheaper to encourage new players to experiment with things that are often seen as "hard to fly", such as aces? Would this require a third format so that people who want to play competitively with all the non-Hyperspace ships can do that without it devolving into ace-wing?

100% Nay. I understand your reasoning, but Hyperspace, long-term, is going to be fluid. It's not viable to readjust Hyperspace points each time there are additions or switches to legal ships/pilots/upgrades.

As for this:

34 minutes ago, Kieransi said:

I think the main problem is that pricing needs to be different for different player skill levels. Note that I don't mean this in a demeaning or unkind way at all.

Quick builds are your friend. Give less experienced players a higher threat level than the more experienced player. Or give the less experienced player 200 points to your 180.

Just my personal opinion, I'm not a fan of putting training wheels on a competitive game after teaching someone the rules/mechanics. I've lost way more than I've won, but I use it to get better and learn. I'd be a way worse player today if I looked for ways to get a crutch. The game is designed to benefit players who make consistently good decisions and good flying. The reward system for good decisions and good flying is W's. (sorry a little bit of a personal rant here).

100% Nay.

If you chop the game into non-equivalent compartments, you create confusion for all players, and especially new ones.

I have already expressed this "grievance" when someone suggested alternate rules/points for small ships in Epic.

I'll add my Nay up to make a Neigh and a (Marshall) Ney! So, thrice Nay.

Quickbuilds are the way round this problem, it's the main reason why they exist.

Nay-sayer here as well. If the game is balanced appropriately, there shouldn't be any need at all to have the formats use different point values. If X-wings and Ties are balanced in Extended they are also balanced in Hyperspace. I'm not saying the game is perfectly balanced atm, but there are enough re-balancing tools in place now to ensure we don't reach 1st ed levels of imbalance, or at least that we wont be there for long like when tripsulons had their emergency nerf. FFG seems to be very aware of the need for a balanced experience if this game is to be successful in the future.

I could see re-balancing points in a format that is bigger than our normal 200 point games, since increasing the squad point and ship limit does change the power level of many things. Epic players can back me up on that. Overall though, I think it would be a detriment to the game to further increase complexity by making the points different in the two primary formats. Since they are both 200 point formats with an 8 ship limit, I just don't see the need for the split.

Nay. Right now every hyperspace list is extended legal and I think it should stay that way. I think the ideal progression is quickbuild, hyperspace, and then extended.

I do think its important to have discussions with new players about what they're looking for out of the match. If were not using quickbuild, I try to bring a suboptimal build (Evaan instead of Dutch for example), and a more competitive list.

I will also sound off with a Nay. I think keeping the formats as compatible with each other as possible is a good thing, as well as keeping potentially confusion of what costs what in which from coming up.

Nay. Balance points around Extended and rotate Hyperspace to keep the meta fresh.

Besides, Hyperspace is the "newbie friendly" format, since the ships are available for new players and there is less rule interactions to remember; not Extended. Extended is for more experienced players.

It's pretty valuable to being to run a hyperspace list in extended rather than to have to have two lists, I think.

Sorry Kieranski, but I'm also a Nay. Like others have said, Quickbuild cards are designed to allow new players to learn the basic maneuvers/abilities of various ships and pilots. Those new players can then transition to Hyperspace where they learn the ins and outs of list-building and more complex squad interactions while still having a smaller (and more concise) list of available ships/upgrads. Finally Extended is designed for anything goes, full use of any available upgrade and cards.

Nay.

100% nay.

If anything I'd see it as a feature if some cards are good in one format and not good in the other. Makes for more variety between the two!

I don't see why not

Hyperspace is just a ban list, much like rotations. After all adjusting points for Hyperspace won't necessarily mean it fits extended.

Definitely nay...

The main reason being that, since the release of wave 3, the majority of factions (4/7) are entirely Hyperspace legal in terms of the ships they have available. It wouldn’t make sense to have the same list having two different points costs depending on format.

Nay