1 hour ago, MasterShake2 said:

So, let's look at this from a different perspective and one that doesn't require lots of historical reference and digging for the average person. In 1991 it was largely thought that force-on-force action i.e 2 big armies fighting a large conventional war, was dead. This was for 2 reasons, 1) the collapse of the Soviet Union and 2) the comically lopsided victory by coalition forces in the first Gulf War. It's important to note that at the time of the first Gulf War, Iraq had the 5th largest military in the world and, even though the United States wasn't alone, it also wasn't using it's full strength and it wiped the Iraqi Army and Air Force, suffering relatively minimal casualties in the process (the conflict was more intense than most think, but still pretty tame compared to battles in previous wars). Then you have a period of relative peace for a pretty long time. The conflicts that arose were mostly a large power fighting a smaller power or an insurgency and rarely if ever really delved into traditional force-on-force fighting with large formations sweeping movements and heavy use of integrated combined arms.

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This actually somewhat mirrors the Star Wars universe in the in the post Clone Wars -> Galactic Civil war period. The major threat (separatists) had been defeated and there wasn't a large challenge for the Galactic Empire to fight. Mostly just small insurrections and pirates and no large organized threats.

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Now, lets look at the technology. In 1991 the main battle tank of the US Army was the M1 Abrams. Right now, the main battle tank of the US Army is the M1 Abrams. In 1991 US Army mechanized infantry rode to battle in M2 Bradleys and cavalry in M3 Bradleys. right now, those are still the vehicles used by those particular formations. The primary small arms was the M16, still the primary small arm today and the one in use since Vietnam. The primary Squad Automatic Weapon was the M249 and that's still the case today. The primary attack helicopter was the AH-64 Apache and the primary transport helicopter was the UH-60 Blackhawk, both still in use today. The CH47 Chinook, a helicopter used in Vietnam is still the preferred heavy lift helicopter of the US Army.

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It's not that none of these platforms have seen advances in the last 28 years, they have, but none of those advances have really changed the fundamental role of any of these platforms and if the US Army of today picked a fight with the Operation Desert Storm US Army, they wouldn't exactly run them over. They'd still have enough technology over them to win, but it wouldn't be a blowout.

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The point is pretty self-explanatory, military technology always plateaus when there's no major threat. And, both in the case of modern insurgents and the various rebel factions in Star Wars, the opponents these large militaries are facing don't have the money or resources to put out equipment that forms a major threat, so the impetus to put out new innovations in major combat platforms is limited to non-existent.

In addition, The Empire was moving to fully adopt the Tarkin Doctrine by pouring resources into The Death Stars (with Starkiller Base as an even larger design on the horizon) and essentially centralize control through the threat of overwhelming and unstoppable violence. So improving infantry was not their priority (outside of a few specialized programs)

The problem is that the Empire is a crony establishment. Rather than hire the best contractors or the least expensive ones, they work with insiders who have a strong lobby.

Look at Sienar Fleet Systems. They say they couldn't afford to put shields or hyper-drives in the TIE/LN and that the pilots really didn't need them anyway. But the Empire is paying more per unit than the Republic paid for the Torrent. Likewise, Stormtrooper armor should represent a massive advancement over clone armor, but it is virtually identical despite the Empire paying as much as 65% more per unit.

The the power of the Force is insignificant next to the the ability to maintain a steadfast and politically neutral accountability office.

17 hours ago, Thalandar said:

Your kidding right? Small arms weapon technology has grown leaps and bounds in the last 50 years, nothing stagnate about the field. But, you know what do I know? I only have 12 years infantry experience and another 15 years in the small arms industry (plus a masters in military history). Please, no one take my word for for it. Its not like I m an expert in the field....oh, wait.

Nope. All changes have been extremely minor, almost superficial.

Changing the stocks from wood to composite materials is not a great leap forward. Its a minor weight reduction, however it also comes with the downside of having to downsize the ammunition to not have uncontrollable recoil. So its more of a lateral shift to just something different, not something that is better.

The difference between an M4 made today and one made 20 years ago is minuscule. And neither has any appreciable advantage over a 60 year old AK-47 in terms of actual combat capabilities. Sure, you can hit better groupings at 300+ meters with an M4 over an AK. but the AK will still easily hit a man sized target at any range the M4 can, and at the ranges which all real combat takes place at(within 100 meters) the AK is just as accurate, and it has a more lethal caliber to boot. The modern M4 is not a technological advancement over rifles designed a half century earlier on its basic levels.

Yes, there is a lot of variety in modern firearms. But don't mistake variety for actual advancement. the difference between gun A and gun B is just a slightly different way of sending a hunk of metal down range. None of them are really more advanced than the other. Some might be of better quality or have minor differences in their advantages and disadvantages, but no newer design of firearm that has come out recently is truly more advanced than stuff that was being made in the 50s and 60s.

Clearly you don't agree, and claim expert knowledge, so what would you say counts as a major advancement in firearms technology?

I bow to the superior knowledge of the SWL internet community. Clearly, I don't know what I am talking about.

4 minutes ago, Thalandar said:

I bow to the superior knowledge of the SWL internet community. Clearly, I don't know what I am talking about.

Well you don't seem to be offering any alternative ideas that work in this particular setting. Given what stats have been released for GCW era stuff, what stats do you think the CW era stuff should have to reflect 20-odd years of technological changes? And why do you think that the movies reflect the difference from our last 20-odd years, and not say, the militarily negligible technological difference from 900 AD to 925 AD?

On 4/11/2019 at 1:44 AM, Indy_com said:

People wanting realism in this game need look no further than Snipers.

In actual warfare the only counter to Snipers is more Snipers.

That's certainly whats happening in-game currently.

Gungan mega shields would stop them. lol

20 minutes ago, lologrelol said:

Gungan mega shields would stop them. lol

Considering that Jedi can't deflect the sniper shot, I'd bet the Sniper rifles are Slugthrowers, which would go through shields.

50 minutes ago, Thalandar said:

I bow to the superior knowledge of the SWL internet community. Clearly, I don't know what I am talking about.

Well, I'm not entirely sure you do. You've made numerous factual errors in your arguments, and don't respond when called out on them. You also have failed to back up any statement when challenged. Granted, some of this is opinion based, and someone could argue that what I call a minor change (say, the Gew98 to K98K, or M1 Garand to FN49 or even M14) was a much bigger leap. However, even in opinion based arguments, some dialogue is needed. Thus far you tend to make a statement, then declare yourself the expert due to your supposed qualifications, and stop responding to criticisms of your argument. Even this last statement shows the level of disrespect that you hold the collective "SWL internet community," at least in comparison to the level of respect you seem to think we should hold you. With your claimed background, I would have expected you to be better at addressing/accepting criticism than you seem to be.

I for one enjoy real-world military history discussions and comparison to Star Wars militaries when appropriate, so it's sad we never really got past a surface level examination or discussion.

22 minutes ago, lologrelol said:

Gungan mega shields would stop them. lol

Being as that our battlefield is smaller than a Wal-Mart, snipers are already way too close for their own comfort!

8 minutes ago, Indy_com said:

Considering that Jedi can't deflect the sniper shot, I'd bet the Sniper rifles are Slugthrowers, which would go through shields.

Gungan shields also stop fast moving objects, (at least that's my understanding) so they should still work. Otherwise, the Trade Federation could have just fired torpedoes at the Gungans rather than sending in B1s.

Just now, Alpha17 said:

Gungaan shields also stop fast moving objects, (at least that's my understanding) so they should still work. Otherwise, the Trade Federation could have just fired torpedoes at the Gungans rather than sending in B1s.

I get the impression that the Trade Federation would have deemed torpedoing the Gungans to be of unnecessary expense.

3 minutes ago, Indy_com said:

I get the impression that the Trade Federation would have deemed torpedoing the Gungans to be of unnecessary expense.

I don't think so. They conducted a lengthy bombardment of Gungan positions with at least the main guns of AATs, and they had obviously already felt that torpedoes be necessary if they had purchased them. Besides the potential benefits of crushing a planetary army (be they control of the planet, prestige or fear gained from other worlds, or even the smug satisfaction many get from dead Gungans), firing a few torpedoes at the shield generators would allow for that AAT bombardment to continue. I'm sure torpedoes/missiles are expensive, but I find it hard to believe that the potential savings in damaged B1s, Droidekas, and AATs wouldn't at least mostly cover this expense.

2 minutes ago, Alpha17 said:

I don't think so. They conducted a lengthy bombardment of Gungan positions with at least the main guns of AATs, and they had obviously already felt that torpedoes be necessary if they had purchased them. Besides the potential benefits of crushing a planetary army (be they control of the planet, prestige or fear gained from other worlds, or even the smug satisfaction many get from dead Gungans), firing a few torpedoes at the shield generators would allow for that AAT bombardment to continue. I'm sure torpedoes/missiles are expensive, but I find it hard to believe that the potential savings in damaged B1s, Droidekas, and AATs wouldn't at least mostly cover this expense.

Costwise, 1 missile is like 100 B1s

They were probably hoping the actual Naboo military rocked up before firing those, since they would've earned back their cost destroying actual military hardware rather than a ball on the back of a horse/hippo thing.

6 minutes ago, Indy_com said:

Costwise, 1 missile is like 100 B1s

They were probably hoping the actual Naboo military rocked up before firing those, since they would've earned back their cost destroying actual military hardware rather than a ball on the back of a horse/hippo thing.

In which case those missiles should have been fired as soon as the Naboo Security forces began their attack on the Palace in Theed. Besides the tactical value of ending a battle quickly and bringing your troops back to the center of power on the planet, they would have saved themselves the cost of sending in Droidekas, which, according to Wookieepedia, are 200x the price of a single B1. The shield being capable of stopping even solid objects, if they moved fast enough, is about the only reason I can think of for them not to have done it. (besides the obvious, "its a movie, the plot demanded it.")

1 hour ago, TauntaunScout said:

Being as that our battlefield is smaller than a Wal-Mart, snipers are already way too close for their own comfort!

Do we have any estimates for the area covered by the Gungan shield generator? It's possible it covers most of the playing space in Legion...

6 hours ago, Thalandar said:

I bow to the superior knowledge of the SWL internet community. Clearly, I don't know what I am talking about.

Well, if you clearly know so much, how about you show why you think I’m wrong?

otherwise you are just blowing hot air.

6 hours ago, Alpha17 said:

I don't think so. They conducted a lengthy bombardment of Gungan positions with at least the main guns of AATs, and they had obviously already felt that torpedoes be necessary if they had purchased them. Besides the potential benefits of crushing a planetary army (be they control of the planet, prestige or fear gained from other worlds, or even the smug satisfaction many get from dead Gungans), firing a few torpedoes at the shield generators would allow for that AAT bombardment to continue. I'm sure torpedoes/missiles are expensive, but I find it hard to believe that the potential savings in damaged B1s, Droidekas, and AATs wouldn't at least mostly cover this expense.

It is entirely possible that a few torpedoes from a capital ship are more expensive than a few thousand mass produced droids and cheap tanks. Especially when you consider that the Trade Federation likely salvages damaged droids after a battle if able. Even if you lose 100 droids in the battle, you will probably be able to get 80-90 of them back up and running within a few hours. The trade federation also was clearly dismissive of the Gungan army, describing them as "primitives". So just throw droids into the grinder, you'll be able to repair most if not all casualties shortly afterwards.

Orbital bombardments are also going to be massively destructive to the area around the battle. That was prime farmland that they were fighting the Gungans on. You don't want to destroy your investment by contaminating it with whatever a series of capital ship bombardments are going to leave behind. Not to mention potential weather disruption for months or years afterwards.

7 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Do we have any estimates for the area covered by the Gungan shield generator? It's possible it covers most of the playing space in Legion...

Playspace in Legion should not be thought of as a 1:1 physical representation.

The units are much too large for their movement speeds and weapon ranges. Elevations are also exaggerated.

This is totally common and normal in miniatures wargames.

In the real world, weapon technology goes in leaps and spurts, but in a galaxy far, far away things are very different.

In general, blasters are either not very efficient, or armor is very, very efficient. In general the rate of fire and accuracy of a blaster rifle are... questionable. But the movies were originally made to emulate WWII movies. With the tech they have, massed troops with rifles should be a losing strategy every time. ****, why are there so many direct fire weapons even? The answer is, cause it looks cool on screen.

But even in the real world the leaps are varied. While a 1947 AK-47 may not be as light, or efficient as a modern combat rifle, it still finds use on today's battlegrounds 70 years later. And as advanced as drones and modern armor are, they are still stopped by some very dated military hardware. And in the galaxy far, far away we see some "progress" that isn't that much advancement. Astromechs seem to be going through an i-Phone progress where new features are added, and they can get smaller, but a 60 year old R2 unit is more than comparable to a bb unit.

It is fun to theorize on these things, but in the end it is just gonna be game balance.

As many people are pointing out, technology doesn't always work the way it does now. For most of human history 100 years advancement in war-related technology would have provided you a minor advantage at best, certainly not enough to offset superior generalship, command and control, training, better defensive position, etc. It's only the world we live in now where this is true, we are the exception, and likely only a temporary one. Probably by the year 100,000, when our technology resembles theirs, 30-40 random years will see little to no meaningful progress whatsoever.

Reminds me also of fantasy worlds where people complain the technology level doesn't drastically increase over hundreds or thousands of years... it's like learn about a time period that isn't Late Medieval/Renaissance Europe. No remarkable technological progress is frequently the norm, it's actually far from implausible, it's instead likely. And so too here, it's entirely possible for their sci-fi world to be in an era of relative technological stasis.

Eh, as far as I have seen in Star Wars technology is weird. There are times where something is really old but can compete with newer things and times when the new stuff dominates old tech.

The Tie Defender for example is a pinnacle of Imperial tech in Rebels and decimates mostly everything it fights. But this was a super fighter that costed more to make than a cheap tie fighter.

Meanwhile for the GCW the Rebels use a lot of Clone Wars teach that is about what, two decades old? And they use it to damage the Empire quite a bit. Also a lot of the Empire's equipment is meant o be swarmed and made cheap, Rex makes his opinion known about how he feels about Clone armor to Storm armor.

Best K2 voice: Its bad, its very bad.

Heck forward to the future of the sequel era and the Resistance uses the T-70, a 30 year old fighter, to fight the First Order.

In sort, Star Wars tech is very weird, it can be improved bit at times but the differences seem like they are so small if there are any.

17 hours ago, BadMotivator said:

It is entirely possible that a few torpedoes from a capital ship are more expensive than a few thousand mass produced droids and cheap tanks. Especially when you consider that the Trade Federation likely salvages damaged droids after a battle if able. Even if you lose 100 droids in the battle, you will probably be able to get 80-90 of them back up and running within a few hours. The trade federation also was clearly dismissive of the Gungan army, describing them as "primitives". So just throw droids into the grinder, you'll be able to repair most if not all casualties shortly afterwards.

Orbital bombardments are also going to be massively destructive to the area around the battle. That was prime farmland that they were fighting the Gungans on. You don't want to destroy your investment by contaminating it with whatever a series of capital ship bombardments are going to leave behind. Not to mention potential weather disruption for months or years afterwards.

I'm not suggesting a Halo-style orbital bombardment. Such an assault would definitely be overkill. What I'm saying is that if Gungan shields could be penetrated by projectiles, the torpedoes fired by AATs (the tubes near the base fire missiles) could have been used to take out the shield generators and then the AAT bombardment we see in the film could have continued. Likewise, if they really wanted to, a Vulture droid could have tried to fly through it; even if its repulsor engines failed, it could have kamikazed the generators if the shield wouldn't stop fast moving objects as well.

However, because none of that happens, and we do see the Trade Federation army attempt other methods (the aforementioned AAT barrage) it is logical to conclude that the shield functions similarly to Goa'uld personal shield tech. Slow moving, solid objects can go through, energy and fast moving projectiles can not. This is backed up by the Wookieepedia article as well.

14 hours ago, CaptainRocket said:

Playspace in Legion should not be thought of as a 1:1 physical representation.

The units are much too large for their movement speeds and weapon ranges. Elevations are also exaggerated.

This is totally common and normal in miniatures wargames.

I'm aware, but vehicles have so far been released as "accurately" scaled down from the "canon" sizes. Ranges are often representations of "combat effective" range of a weapon, and speed depends on the time scale used as well.

I get that there's a bunch of abstraction, this isn't a simulation it's a game, I was just wondering how the size of the Gungan shield generator compared to the size of Legion's playing field. It would be interesting to have an objective card called "protect the shield generators" making a particular game feel like part of a bigger battle.

You guys are also forgetting most of the stormtroopers we see (with the exception of return of the jedi) are participating in either boarding actions, law enforcement work or ship board security while the clone troopers are in mainly frontline action. The E11 has good stopping power while being at a low enough power to minimize collateral damage (officers tend to frown upon soldiers blowing holes in their own ships for some reason and with law enforcement duties collateral damage is extra paperwork).