12 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

Another unmentioned factor is that flying has less marginal utility in 2.0 vs 1.0 since dice can screw you way harder

The variance aspect is also one of the things making the broader choices of lists possible. It is also much friendlier to new players. It also makes players feel like they were in the game and actually got to play. Swings are also dramatic. Without variance having a place in the game you can't ever take a gamble. The Party Bus dropping five hits every turn is boring. Variance reduces the feeling of inevitability that was so often present in 1st.

1 minute ago, Frimmel said:

The variance aspect is also one of the things making the broader choices of lists possible. It is also much friendlier to new players. It also makes players feel like they were in the game and actually got to play. Swings are also dramatic. Without variance having a place in the game you can't ever take a gamble. The Party Bus dropping five hits every turn is boring. Variance reduces the feeling of inevitability that was so often present in 1st.

On a game-to-game fun-with-your-friends level, sure. Variance with no way to mitigate it means a tournament run can end on 2 dice rolls despite perfect flying, though. Great for beer and pretzels, not ideal for competitive play.

We're already returning to the land of high initiative, abusive movement profiles, and deep bids for several list archetypes because initiative kills and not getting shot are the only real ways to manage variance in 2.0.

It can be very difficult to talk tactics and flying on the forums without being able to show pictures. Same for podcasts.

I agree that there us too much reliance on lists when discussing playing. I often fly non-traditional lists, but I have 7 years experience with the game. I can fly pretty well and often do better than one would think with non-meta lists. When I try to discuss this on the forums I get reactions that whomever I played is really bad and if I played against a "real" player than I would lose. That always pisses me off because it breaks down to lists win games and completely discounts flying.

I also think the game is better off without auto hits and the like. It's what killing the game. I can also give a flying flip how it impacts tournament play.

50 minutes ago, Frimmel said:

That's very useful. Thanks for sharing that. Speeding up your OODA loop is good. Though it is similar to "Failure to plan is planning to fail." Folks bag on me sometimes for being organized and having a plan and I always reply, "Chaos requires no assistance from me."

The first year or so of my X-wing competitive experience, I pretty much exclusively practiced via solitaire games, where I played both sides. Real games never involved the same lists or the same set of moves as my practice games, but you can be damned sure that I wasn't frequently surprised by what my opponents did.

6 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

It can be very difficult to talk tactics and flying on the forums without being able to show pictures. Same for podcasts.

I agree that there us too much reliance on lists when discussing playing. I often fly non-traditional lists, but I have 7 years experience with the game. I can fly pretty well and often do better than one would think with non-meta lists. When I try to discuss this on the forums I get reactions that whomever I played is really bad and if I played against a "real" player than I would lose. That always pisses me off because it breaks down to lists win games and completely discounts flying.

I also think the game is better off without auto hits and the like. It's what killing the game. I can also give a flying flip how it impacts tournament play.

I believe in you!

Tin foil hat time: a lot of the people who really know their stuff don't want to talk tactics on a totally open forum because they don't want people figuring them out before tournaments.

Therefore any discussion of tactics is either too broad to be of real educational substance, or it descends into arguments between players with only average or worse competitive results. And neither result is particularly interesting or engaging to read.

The other source of tactics discussion is therefore second or third hand analysis of other people's games, and there are a ton of podcasts and youtube/twitch videos doing that in a far more comprehensive format than text discussion, so why would anyone bother with the forum post?

There is something to the idea that some people don't want others to learn their tricks.

There is also the fact that to really have a good discussion on the forums that you need to make an effort to really show it via pictures, screenshots, etc.. It is really just a pain and a lot of people don't want to bother.

Many people also have other channels to talk about X-wing than FFG's forums and many people consider these forums to be full of toxic people or idiots. I think these forums are so much better than most game forums, but I can see that there are the occasional person who is either clueless or an #^&@#.

I think the best way to learn was suggested by someone earlier where you analyze your game either during it or right afterwards to learn better. You need someone willing to help, though.

9 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Really? I catch snippets here and there of people mentioning a tactic with which I'm unfamiliar, and I personally find it far more interesting than the discussions of whether a list I will never fly is slightly better with this pilot I don't care about or that pilot I don't care about.

I mean, sure, occasionally there is something.

But I guess my point is that since everyone is essentially flying the same "mission" over and over again with no alternate end-point or goals, at some point there are no flying tactics to talk about that aren't just part of the "base game."

Everyone's Turn 0 is always exactly the same from a (very) basic point of view: place obstacles, deploy ships, 3x3 zone, 3' edge.

Hopefully, if we get missions, "How do I blow up the fuel depot?" becomes a much more interesting conversation.

1 minute ago, heychadwick said:

There is something to the idea that some people don't want others to learn their tricks.

There is also the fact that to really have a good discussion on the forums that you need to make an effort to really show it via pictures, screenshots, etc.. It is really just a pain and a lot of people don't want to bother.

Can confirm. I can write fairly quickly and easily, but top notch content really benefits from pictures, and that super slows me down.

6 minutes ago, GuacCousteau said:

Tin foil hat time: a lot of the people who really know their stuff don't want to talk tactics on a totally open forum because they don't want people figuring them out before tournaments.

Therefore any discussion of tactics is either too broad to be of real educational substance, or it descends into arguments between players with only average or worse competitive results. And neither result is particularly interesting or engaging to read.

The other source of tactics discussion is therefore second or third hand analysis of other people's games, and there are a ton of podcasts and youtube/twitch videos doing that in a far more comprehensive format than text discussion, so why would anyone bother with the forum post?

Maybe. But a lot of X Wing Dial Placement is very much playing Princess Bride: If you know that I know that I can do this maneuver, but I know that you know that I know then I can do this other thing instead. I love that part of this game, it is my favorite part but it doesn't translate well to broad stroke tactics because what maneuvers are available to you is extremely specific to game state.

Truly, learning all you can about turn 0 and learning to accurately identify where your ships will be with what maneuvers (and chains of maneuvers), and learning when to joust and when not to are possibly the best three things to "study" when trying to git gud. The first there is a bunch of material available, the second just takes practice, and the third is sorta math.

17 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Maybe. But a lot of X Wing Dial Placement is very much playing Princess Bride: If you know that I know that I can do this maneuver, but I know that you know that I know then I can do this other thing instead. I love that part of this game, it is my favorite part but it doesn't translate well to broad stroke tactics because what maneuvers are available to you is extremely specific to game state.

Truly, learning all you can about turn 0 and learning to accurately identify where your ships will be with what maneuvers (and chains of maneuvers), and learning when to joust and when not to are possibly the best three things to "study" when trying to git gud. The first there is a bunch of material available, the second just takes practice, and the third is sorta math.

Yeah, this is true. General tactics and things to think about are good, but only get you so far. I don't know how to cross the communication bridge from that to those very specific instances you discuss. Even those, you can make up scenarios, but those scenarios often feel contrived to prove a point. The best I've figured out is "look for situations where this happens. "

1 hour ago, RampancyTW said:

On a game-to-game fun-with-your-friends level, sure. Variance with no way to mitigate it means a tournament run can end on 2 dice rolls despite perfect flying, though. Great for beer and pretzels, not ideal for competitive play.

We're already returning to the land of high initiative, abusive movement profiles, and deep bids for several list archetypes because initiative kills and not getting shot are the only real ways to manage variance in 2.0.

I'm not particularly interested in what is ideal for "competitive play" or rather "tournament play." I'm interested in what gets a lot of guys out on game night. And a bunch of the lists at the end of 1st Ed. kept people away from game night. Those memories are keeping guys away from 2nd. The idea that you have to have some crazy list created with expansions you only bought for a single card has been hard to banish.

All of the emphasis on tournaments isn't really all its cracked up to be. Guys aren't playing because they think they need tournament lists even for casual night. No casual night, no group of guys who think it would be fun to have a tourney on Sunday or fun to start a league. Beer and pretzels has to come first.

15 minutes ago, Micanthropyre said:

Maybe. But a lot of X Wing Dial Placement is very much playing Princess Bride: ...

Well, that is when everyone is on the same level. I think when you have 2 good players it comes down to that, but often on the forums you have people who don't get main concepts yet and are trying to learn (such as OP). So, the challenge is how do you convey ideas on the forums?

4 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Well, that is when everyone is on the same level. I think when you have 2 good players it comes down to that, but often on the forums you have people who don't get main concepts yet and are trying to learn (such as OP). So, the challenge is how do you convey ideas on the forums?

I'm not sure you can. Variables that come into play are Initiative, Obstacles, Stress, Dials, and Will I Have A Shot/GetShot/Have A Shot Later.

All of which would take a really long time to even break down how to go through that decision tree in a reasonable amount of time so your opponent doesn't call a judge for slow play.

33 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

Well, that is when everyone is on the same level. I think when you have 2 good players it comes down to that, but often on the forums you have people who don't get main concepts yet and are trying to learn (such as OP). So, the challenge is how do you convey ideas on the forums?

My opinion is: Experience.

Until you've got enough game time and other concepts, you don't start thinking about what the other player is thinking you're thinking about. There's no point in trying to outline the mind game side of the game when you're still trying to get concepts and high level tactics.

Strangely, this reminds me a lot of aerial combat. Tactics get you into a position of advantage or disadvantage, but once the fight devolves to a furball it becomes mind games and individual ship maneuvers. Unless you successfully disengage and reset the battle conditions.

5 minutes ago, LagJanson said:

My opinion is: Experience.

Until you've got enough game time and other concepts, you don't start thinking about what the other player is thinking you're thinking about. There's no point in trying to outline the mind game side of the game when you're still trying to get concepts and high level tactics.

Strangely, this reminds me a lot of aerial combat. Tactics get you into a position of advantage or disadvantage, but once the fight devolves to a furball it becomes mind games and individual ship maneuvers. Unless you successfully disengage and reset the battle conditions.

This.

There's no replacement for spending time at the table. In addition to general x-wing experience, you need time flying against different factions to understand their strengths and archetypes. You also need to put in some hours flying specific ships to really know how to fly them. Don't swap out your list every match. Play the same or similar list multiple times to learn how the ships handle and how they need to fly to confront different threats.

1 hour ago, Frimmel said:

All of the emphasis on tournaments isn't really all its cracked up to be. Guys aren't playing because they think they need tournament lists even for casual night. No casual night, no group of guys who think it would be fun to have a tourney on Sunday or fun to start a league. Beer and pretzels has to come first. 

Sure, but beer and pretzels isn't coming to the forums to discuss flight tactics. They're likely not on the forum at all. So the people that are here are primarily going to be discussing the foundation of not getting knocked out in tournaments, which outside of rule-of-11 and not donating points to your opponent comes down to list-building.

1.0 was frustrating for a lot of reasons but the reliability of dice results for most good lists meant that you could dig into the flying a little more. A ship's impact on a list could be more clearly defined and thus discussed.

I like 2.0 overall, and will like it even more when some of the aggressive costing is pushed back up to where it should be, but in the meantime I'll likely be discussing lists that are either good at not getting shot or good at shooting because that matters way more than range control and ship tactics outside of the obvious dos and don'ts.

On 4/9/2019 at 7:08 AM, ayedubbleyoo said:

I've always thought this is a strange thing about X-Wing... seems 90% of discussion is about lists and maybe 10% is about tactics and ideas about flying.

There are one or two articles about things like rock placement and turn zero, but not much talk about it on the forum and in the community. A few of the podcasts have started up theory episodes, which is great.

Has anyone noticed this, or it bothered them? And what are your questions about strategy?

Lists are easy to discuss. There's concrete numbers and stats and abilities and all.

Flying is harder to discuss. The board state on turn 5 between two lists and obstacles and their placement is very variable. There are some concepts that can be discussed, like obstacle placement, and some that are learned best by doing, like judging distances and manuvers around obstacles.

Well, I see others have covered it. Yep. For that kind of flying, I find reviewing matches on youtube to be productive. Maybe we can start doing that here on the forums. Pick a youtube match, link it, and then do a turn by turn discussion on the maneuvering and tactics.

3 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

Sure, but beer and pretzels isn't coming to the forums to discuss flight tactics. They're likely not on the forum at all.

I would discuss tactics but it is hard to visualize or show people what u are doing. I wish there was a "chalkboard" we could use. I would love to discuss rock placement but how would I show it.

Here is a shot - I have nym loaded with tragedy stimulator and two skurgs loaded with prox mines and proton bombs

I like to launch my first seismic r1 and create a huge no fly zone - what's the best way to corner an ace?

rock

rock siesmic rock

sixa? lok? nym

3 hours ago, RampancyTW said:

Sure, but beer and pretzels isn't coming to the forums to discuss flight tactics.

I'm not sure on that. I see them enough on these forums. Flight tactics aren't always discussed, but often enough.

4 hours ago, LagJanson said:

Until you've got enough game time and other concepts, you don't start thinking about what the other player is thinking you're thinking about.

Yeah. That's the unfortunate thing. I believe the OP will just be disappointed.

7 hours ago, freakyg3 said:

I would discuss tactics but it is hard to visualize or show people what u are doing. I wish there was a "chalkboard" we could use. I would love to discuss rock placement but how would I show it.

Here is a shot - I have nym loaded with tragedy stimulator and two skurgs loaded with prox mines and proton bombs

I like to launch my first seismic r1 and create a huge no fly zone - what's the best way to corner an ace?

rock

rock siesmic rock

sixa? lok? nym

This depends on a few things. First, where are their rocks? That will affect the angle that the ace can approach at, so you have to consider that in your placement of the other 2 scurggs. Second, where do you think their ace will be deployed? We'll assume they deploy after all your ships, so you have to remove as many options for them as possible. If the ace wants to come in on a flank like Soontir, then try to set up to send the two scurggs after the ace and try and stay away from the rest of the list while you lock down the ace. If the ace is like Wedge or Luke and might be a bit more jousty, then the scurggs should probably just converge on their formation while trying to lure them into the death zone while you slow roll-let them play your game. Try not to let the ace get away from you, as scurggs won't catch up to Soontir/Kylo/Anakin/etc. too easily. Take this with a grain of salt though, I've never flown scurggs in my life.

17 hours ago, Micanthropyre said:

Maybe. But a lot of X Wing Dial Placement is very much playing Princess Bride: If you know that I know that I can do this maneuver, but I know that you know that I know then I can do this other thing instead. I love that part of this game, it is my favorite part but it doesn't translate well to broad stroke tactics because what maneuvers are available to you is extremely specific to game state.

Truly, learning all you can about turn 0 and learning to accurately identify where your ships will be with what maneuvers (and chains of maneuvers), and learning when to joust and when not to are possibly the best three things to "study" when trying to git gud. The first there is a bunch of material available, the second just takes practice, and the third is sorta math.

Well in princess bride both were poisoned, so it didn't matter which cup you dialed, I can boost in that direction.

I forgot which podcast it was but one of the panel members were talking about the decay of the state of 1st edition and the question was what made X-wing (wave 1-3) so fun. Part of that was the uncertainty which came in 2 forms: the maneuver selected, and the dice result. And at the end of 1st edition all of that was pretty much gone. If you were PS11 in a Tie Silencer (I know that wasn't really a thing) you didn't have that uncertainty you just dial in a short maneuver and corrected for any movement your opponent may have attempted to make to dodge your attacks, or you were flying a turret and you didn't have to guess the position, just stay close enough to keep making attacks. Not to mention the other half was pretty much destroyed by a lot of adding results or even doing damage without even having to roll the dice.

So for 2nd edition, well as far as the dice uncertainty it is mostly back. There isn't a lot of additional results, focus has been toned down by replacing them with more mini-focus type tokens (force, calculate). For movement, they did tone it down a little but not as much. There is still that boost & barrel roll combo available on many of the ships, and while they kept Int 6 somewhat on the nerfed side the lower scale means a lot more at that high end movement scale.

Now onto turn zero. Well there was a video back in the days of Wave 3. Heck you can find an article on it right HERE. But the question is well what has changed, and you would be right to say quite bit. You have Resistance Hans, and Hyperspace Comms Scanner which gives you turn zero placement as well as new obstacles. But the actual question is what changed in the meta with any of this, and the answer would be very little. Now I would like to see some more aggressive turn 0 mechanics but again, no one wants to lose in deployment any more than anyone wants to lose in list building. Heck some people don't want the first dice roll to determine the game which is why you may not noticed but there is a push against an alpha strike meta. Again, this goes to X-wing combat being diced based, but because of that players want to see the dice rolled a bit more than a couple of times before the game has been determined.

I did a thing that briefly touches on some list building thoughts TL:DR, you need to first get a hammer before you can figure out the proper technique for using it

https://dialedin.blog/?fbclid=IwAR2PT5Lj-Fz801nEipKcchaDjeCjVIyt2bJt8n3XAV-dRGi2yPSEdKB_YLc

When I played SC2, the reason I was ranked Platinum instead of Silver was almost entirely due to Day9's youtube channel. In 45 min videos he went through 3-5 games, fast forwarding through much of the game with brief descriptions of what's happening, and playing/pausing for deep discussions on key moments.

I find it surprising no one has done that for xwing. The information density was about 500% better than even the best of the xwing game streams, which have maybe 15mins of good commentary spread out over a 75min game. Most podcasts/blogs suffer from similar issues, lots of hypothetical scenario and list talk, but not much in the way of visualized of real games scenarios, so the usefulness is pretty limited.