So... Dewbacks seem kind of not great to me. I'm not an Imperial player and I haven't seen them in action yet, but they seem underwhelming.

HOWEVER! Maybe I'm wrong? I'm going to talk about the potential problems I see, and then maybe in this thread we can discuss how to use them or how they might be better than they look. Anyway, here's my thoughts:

- Starting with the good: Their close combat is solid, and unlike imperial Guard or Wookies or even an AtRt they won't lose effectiveness as they take casualties/damage. They're also likely to survive a long time in CC against anything thats not a Jedi. For example, a full squad of Wooks is only going to average 2 wounds on them. So I think their CC is a really high point for them.

- But getting them into CC is a long process. They're not as slow as they look, since 2 Range 1 moves with that huge bases covers a lot of ground and they can boost their speed and cross difficult terrain with no penalty. But it'll still take them awhile to get to the fight. And thats 2 or three turns where they're not doing anything.

- They're also probably not too hard to simply avoid. That won't always be an option, but I've had a few games where objectives where in places that the Dewback simply wouldn't fit (in between buildings, on narrow walk ways). So it won't always be able to engage the units it wants to fight.

- Its a **** big target, and will be harder to hide than something like Wookies. It also won't be able to benefit from cover from Suppression (or so I'm told). So despite being pretty **** tough it might suffer the same fate as most of my AtRt and simply die before it gets anywhere.

- Some okay shooting to help it close the distance and put pressure on enemies as it approached would help, but its 10 point upgrade is really not good. I mean, its a great upgrade for 10 points, but as a 100 point model its shooting is very underwhelming. 4 white dice with Critical 2 is a very small amount of damage for a 100 point model. The Flamethrower will likely be a more attractive choice, but it also involves getting all the way to range 1, which is going to take awhile, and could often mean a dead or nearly dead Dewback.

- None of this would really be much of a problem if the unit were priced more similarly to the AtRt, but its so **** expensive for what it does. It has a CC potential similar to Wookies and shares a similar cost, but Wookies have much better shooting, can take cover easier (and benefit from cover with Suppression) and can take objectives. Its much worse at shooting than an AtRT (which ends up being 15 points less). It has advantages over both these units, but those advantages don't really add up to anything I'd want to invest 100+ points in.

- I do wonder if it can be locked in combat, or like vehicles will simply be able to walk away. Thats a big advantage for the AtSt in combat,and it would be nice if the Dewback could do the same.


Anyway... I don't want to be too negative. Its a nice model and I don't think its such a poor unit that it can't be taken.

As Imperial players how will you use it effectively? As Rebel players do you think you'll have trouble dealing with it?

It does get some extra movement from the Spur rule, and it could get even more from the likes of Pulling the Strings.

If the rules for terrain are followed. the dewback should fit easily between terrain pieces. Granted there are some terrain pieces that can exclude larger units from getting inside of them. I don't think terrain exclusion is a huge deal for most tables.

The one gun we can see that has a cost is only 10 points and has critical 2. Pretty nice gun that can push through damage on covered units with dodge tokens or guardian. Since it can move twice and shoot, I don't see how they are out of a fight for any amount of time. Clearly they shine in melee combat but they are not worthless on their way there.

Their survivability is suspect especially if creatures don't get cover from suppression. There is still terrain that could provide cover for them and they get that armor 1 and red dice, so that is something. They are dewbacks, not tanks. They would be something with 8 health.

9 minutes ago, Mep said:

The one gun we can see that has a cost is only 10 points and has critical 2. Pretty nice gun that can push through damage on covered units with dodge tokens or guardian. Since it can move twice and shoot, I don't see how they are out of a fight for any amount of time. Clearly they shine in melee combat but they are not worthless on their way there.

So Critical 2 allows up to 2 Surges to become Crits, right? On 4 White dice thats still only averaging a single wound on a Rebel unit. Thats not much for a 100 point investment. Especially since being able to shoot isn't always a given with a proper amount of line of sight blocking terrain. I think I'm still going to fear speederbikes a LOT more with their higher average damage and the ability to appear where they need to be, strike and then fade away. Competing with the Speederbikes is a big deal for the Dewback.

There's also the yet unknown range 4 gun.

Speederbikes loose their firepower pretty quickly though, since they don't have armor and only 3 wounds each.

1 minute ago, costi said:

There's also the yet unknown range 4 gun.

yeah. It look like it has a keyword, does it? But even a moderate damage R4 weapon could be interesting. It could allow the Dewback to kind of fill a mobile sniper roll. Thats a lot of points for something like that, but it could be neat.

1 minute ago, Vode said:

Speederbikes loose their firepower pretty quickly though, since they don't have armor and only 3 wounds each.

Thats very true. But Speederbikes, when used even moderately well, can inflict a lot of damage and then quickly move to safety. not Always, but enough that destroying them, or even just one, is often difficult. The Dewback is more resilient for sure, but not a LOT more. It'll keep shooting even at 1 wound, but its shooting is just less effective that I don't know if it will really matter much. of course, close combat is another matter. A Dewback up in everyone's face, especially one with a Flame Thrower, is going to eb a problem until its dead. So I'm guessing its value is going to depend more on how quickly it can get to combat opposed to how much shooting it can do.

1 hour ago, Mep said:

The one gun we can see that has a cost is only 10 points and has critical 2. Pretty nice gun that can push through damage on covered units with dodge tokens or guardian. Since it can move twice and shoot, I don't see how they are out of a fight for any amount of time. Clearly they shine in melee combat but they are not worthless on their way there.

Critical keyword doesn't help against Cover or Dodge. After you roll dice you convert Surges, which on a Dewback would change Surges to Hits. Then Cover and Dodge tokens take effect, removing Hits. After Cover and Dodge the Attacker modifies the dice and this is when the Critical Keyword from the gun takes place changing Hits to Crits.

So the Critical keyword makes the weapon more effective against units with Armor of any sort. However if a unit is in cover or has a Dodge token(s) with only 4 white dice it that gun will lose effectiveness quickly.

Its still 100 points for something that is tough, good in close combat but terrible at ranged combat, given what we know so far. It won't degrade the way many other units will from losses but I think its going to have a hard time making up its points and since it is rumored it can't take objectives it really has to make up its points worth or deny your opponent a lot.

53 minutes ago, Grujav said:

Critical keyword doesn't help against Cover or Dodge. After you roll dice you convert Surges, which on a Dewback would change Surges to Hits. Then Cover and Dodge tokens take effect, removing Hits. After Cover and Dodge the Attacker modifies the dice and this is when the Critical Keyword from the gun takes place changing Hits to Crits.

So the Critical keyword makes the weapon more effective against units with Armor of any sort. However if a unit is in cover or has a Dodge token(s) with only 4 white dice it that gun will lose effectiveness quickly.

Its still 100 points for something that is tough, good in close combat but terrible at ranged combat, given what we know so far. It won't degrade the way many other units will from losses but I think its going to have a hard time making up its points and since it is rumored it can't take objectives it really has to make up its points worth or deny your opponent a lot.

are you sure that the critical keyword is applied during the modify attack dice step? and not simply at the time surges are converted? because if it is like you say, the critical keyword would do nothing at all!

1. roll dice

2. convert surges to hits(dewbacks here)

3. apply dodge and cover

4. modify attack dice -> critical triggers but there are no surges left so nothing happens, despite you have to leave 2 surges during the convert step for the keyword

The Critical wording is: While converting offensive surges, change up to X surge results to crit results. so by any means critical is applied BEFORE dodge and cover!

I'm pretty sure Critical converts surges to crits, not hits to crits. The ability that converts hts to crits is called Impact.

3 hours ago, costi said:

I'm pretty sure Critical converts surges to crits, not hits to crits. The ability that converts hts to crits is called Impact.

At the card it's very hard to see if the symbol is a hit or offensive surge. I would think it's a hit, even if I like it better the other way round.
That would still differ from Impact, because Impact only triggers if the defender has the Armor keyword.

It’s actually (to me) saying : “when converting offensive surges change X hits into crits” so it’s the best of both worlds. It occurs before dodge/cover but can still convert hits to crits instead of surges to crits

Ah! Thank you. It was difficult to read.

6 hours ago, costi said:

I'm pretty sure Critical converts surges to crits, not hits to crits. The ability that converts hts to crits is called Impact.

Impact only activates when targeting units with Armour though, so Critical could apply to hits and still be a separate keyword since it doesn't have that restriction for activation.

11 hours ago, Jake the Hutt said:

So... Dewbacks seem kind of not great to me. I'm not an Imperial player and I haven't seen them in action yet, but they seem underwhelming.

HOWEVER! Maybe I'm wrong? I....

As Imperial players how will you use it effectively? As Rebel players do you think you'll have trouble dealing with it?

Pretty sure you are wrong. Dewbacks are a very strong unit, especially in the context of Imperial lists. I'd run them with endurance to manage the suppression from Spure, maybe also with the flamer and in some contexts even with a HQ-Uplink.

1. They are not slow as you think, but one of the fastest units in the game. If they really have a 10 mm Base, they will move close to 9 Inch per move action with free pivots and unhindered. With New Ways to Motivate Them or Pulling the strings, they will have 3 move actions with relentless. They can move more than 26 inch and then use a flamer or make a close combat attack. With an HQ-Uplink, you can even go crazy and use "New ways to motivate them" on three units and be 2 inch within the enemy deployment zone in turn 1.

2. Of course they get cover by suppression and of course you can engage enemy troopers in melee. They are an Emplacement Trooper, why wouldn't they? On top of that, it will propably be relatively easy to get them into regular cover, because of their 2 free pivots per activation.
In case there is a big line of sight blocker, they can even move-shoot-move and hide again. With a spotter unit that provides them with an aim token, the T21-Blaster rifle will have roughly a 5 out of 6 chance to deal at least one crit and a 1 out of 2 chance todeal at least 2 crits.That is quite ok against snipers or commanders.
They have 6 wounds, armor 1, almost always light cover and often hard cover.

On top of that, you have the option to hide them in close combat with a weak enemy unit in turn 2 anyway. Everything that is not designed for close combat will have a hard time to get past armor 1 and red defence dice.
If you charge units that have not been activated, you can make up for your low activation count, because you essentially neutralize enemy activations.

3. Shore troopers can support with order tokens in other list concepts.

4. There is allready synergy between Vader and Krennic, and the lizards fit into such a list quite good. Krennics Compel lets them keep 2 activations on their way to the opponent, Vaders New ways to motivate them is made for them. Once they have tied up 2 or 3 shooty units, it will be much easier for Vader to close in. Vaders Force push helps to keep control of the melees, and he scares away all units that are too strong for the Lizards. Krennics Cunning and his one pip can help with a first-last activation. His 2-pip can give an extra attack both to Vader and a Dewback in close combat. The combination of Master of Evil in turn 4, Krennics 3-pip in turn 5 and the suppressive close combat attacks can cause huge suppression issues.

But yeah... their range attack is slightly worse than that of Speeder Bikes.

Take dewbacks out of a vacuum and they can synergize with other units. IRG has guardian which protects troopers. Unless there's a rule update for creature trooper, they may be able to absorb some damage while running along side to add to the charge.

Pulling Strings or Ways to Motivate could grant them an additional move action, which could also Spur for a 3rd move 2. Veers' imperial discipline could help them shed suppressions from spurring across the table. Also, due to their size, they could double as moving LOS blocking terrain for IRG or scout troopers to get up close.

Tenacity and Endurance are both solid upgrade options. The RT-97c is probably the same as the tank, so 1 red 3 white. I think I'd rather keep moving than shoot with this guy though.

@M.Mustermann Dewbacks aren't "Emplacement troopers" they are "Creature troopers." There has been comments from FFG that Creature troopers don't get cover for having suppression.

9 hours ago, costi said:

There's also the yet unknown range 4 gun.

It's not unknown, you can see the model, it's the RT-97C, so it'll be identical to the one on the TX-225 pintle mount, just like their DLT mount is identical to the DLT stormies carry. Gun A is Gun A in Legion, unless it belongs to a Hero.

1 minute ago, Weikel said:

Tenacity and Endurance are both solid upgrade options. The RT-97c is probably the same as the tank, so 1 red 3 white. I think I'd rather keep moving than shoot with this guy though.

With relentless you can do both!

48 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Impact only activates when targeting units with Armour though, so Critical could apply to hits and still be a separate keyword since it doesn't have that restriction for activation.

It definitely looks like a surge symbol to me, which makes it a somewhat lateral move to Impact. On one hand it can circumvent cover and dodge and armor, but on the other hand it relies on you rolling surges to activate

2 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

It definitely looks like a surge symbol to me, which makes it a somewhat lateral move to Impact. On one hand it can circumvent cover and dodge and armor, but on the other hand it relies on you rolling surges to activate

Could very well be, I can't quite make it out, and at that resolution I can trick myself into seeing either symbol. I was mostly pointing out that the existence of Impact doesn't prevent a different special rule from having the same effect without the requirement of the target having armour.

7 minutes ago, Caimheul1313 said:

Could very well be, I can't quite make it out, and at that resolution I can trick myself into seeing either symbol. I was mostly pointing out that the existence of Impact doesn't prevent a different special rule from having the same effect without the requirement of the target having armour.

True, we might see something like that to represent a high energy, high penetration beam weapon or something.

26 minutes ago, UnitOmega said:

It's not unknown, you can see the model, it's the RT-97C, so it'll be identical to the one on the TX-225 pintle mount, just like their DLT mount is identical to the DLT stormies carry. Gun A is Gun A in Legion, unless it belongs to a Hero.

Deathtrooper DLTs get an extra die versus Stormtrooper DLTs.

Different model, the DLT-19D my dude, same reason why their E-11 is better, E-11D.

3 minutes ago, M.Mustermann said:

Pretty sure you are wrong. Dewbacks are a very strong unit, especially in the context of Imperial lists. I'd run them with endurance to manage the suppression from Spure, maybe also with the flamer and in some contexts even with a HQ-Uplink.

1. They are not slow as you think, but one of the fastest units in the game. If they really have a 10 mm Base, they will move close to 9 Inch per move action with free pivots and unhindered. With New Ways to Motivate Them or Pulling the strings, they will have 3 move actions with relentless. They can move more than 26 inch and then use a flamer or make a close combat attack. With an HQ-Uplink, you can even go crazy and use "New ways to motivate them" on three units and be 2 inch within the enemy deployment zone in turn 1.

2. Of course they get cover by suppression and of course you can engage enemy troopers in melee. They are an Emplacement Trooper, why wouldn't they? On top of that, it will propably be relatively easy to get them into regular cover, because of their 2 free pivots per activation.
In case there is a big line of sight blocker, they can even move-shoot-move and hide again. With a spotter unit that provides them with an aim token, the T21-Blaster rifle will deal have roughly a 5 out of 6 chance to deal at least one crit and a 2 out of 3 chance todeal at least 2 crits.That is quite ok against snipers or commanders.
They have 6 wounds, armor 1, almost always light cover and often hard cover.

On top of that, you have the option to hide them in close combat with a weak enemy unit in turn 2 anyway. Everything that is not designed for close combat will have a hard time to get past armor 1 and red defence dice.
If you charge units that have not been activated, you can make up for your low activation count, because you essentially neutralize enemy activations.

3. Shore troopers can support with order tokens in other list concepts.

4. There is allready synergy between Vader and Krennic, and the lizards fit into such a list quite good. Krennics Compel lets them keep 2 activations on their way to the opponent, Vaders New ways to motivate them is made for them. Once they have tied up 2 or 3 shooty units, it will be much easier for Vader to close in. Vaders Force push helps to keep control of the melees, and he scares away all units that are too strong for the Lizards. Krennics Cunning and his one pip can help with a first-last activation. His 2-pip can give an extra attack both to Vader and a Dewback in close combat. The combination of Master of Evil in turn 4, Krennics 3-pip in turn 5 and the suppressive close combat attacks can cause huge suppression issues.

But yeah... their range attack is slightly worse than that of Speeder Bikes.

1. Pretty sure you meant 100mm base and using 3 spur actions to get that close that fast puts you almost at your suppression value. You're really risking a route with that strategy, endurance or not, as the only commanders who can keep you from doing so at that point are too slow to be in range to prevent that. You've also created a situation in which most of my units who probably weren't shooting anything anyway, now have the opportunity to lay into what is almost half your army if you're going with all three dewbacks.

2. As Caimheul said, they're creature troopers and not emplacement troopers. We already know that they don't get cover from suppression, and we don't know all of their interactions yet. It's very possible they can't engage with their melee either, but we don't know that yet. I also wouldn't consider dealing 2 damage to commanders super great either, especially since the gun is range 3. Most common named units can eat 2 damage for breakfast. Cover is dependent on the terrain, so claiming you'll always have some form of cover on top of your defense is assuming a little much.

3. I'm not going to stop you from running Krennic, Vader, and 3 dewbacks. I'll warn you right now that it's not as good as it seems. For starters Krennic, the frailest named imp commander, needs to be in range 2 to compel and it gives another suppression token to a unit that is already suppressed. And you want to be using spur to move up aggressively? You'll force a route on your own units without any incoming fire if you're not exceptionally careful. Last-first activations are really hard to pull off when you have fewer units than the opponent who, with what you've suggested, will have activation advantage. It also is impossible to do effectively with more than 1 unit as the opponent gets to go between activations. Naked the five units are 560, and Vader NEEDS saber throw, the dewbacks really should have a ranged attack, and Krennic needs Emergency stims to be able to not die too quickly so you can compel. Vader needs a minimum of 3 round to get in range to saber throw most of the time when the oppenent is advancing towards him, and you're suggesting that he can do that when they aren't and give support with force push which is range 1. That's not going to happen as early as you're saying it will, ever. The last part of your plan, again, requires the frailest imperial commander to be close to pull off and only works if a unit in range 2 does something, and doesn't do anything if the unit with the standby activates before standby triggers. Then you plan on having him survive, despite being as close to the fighting as he has been, to pull his 3 pip?

And the T-21 Rifle is significantly worse than a pair of bikes, and is still a worse weapon when compared to a single bike.

5 hours ago, Jabby said:

It’s actually (to me) saying : “when converting offensive surges change X hits into crits” so it’s the best of both worlds. It occurs before dodge/cover but can still convert hits to crits instead of surges to crits

It is hard to read those blurry cards, but that is exactly how I am reading it too. So at the convert surges step, you can convert hits to crits. The timing is important, since this happens before cover removes hits, unlike impact that happens after cover.