7 hours ago, Derrault said:

Yes, but that is the same as rolling blanks on several sniper activations.

Snipers are cheap because their damage potential is low, with a maximum of 2 wounds per activation.

Comparatively, those Fleets could be passing 12 wounds, hypothetically able to delete an entire enemy unit each activation. A sniper unit at best can remove 2 per game (or a single unit of wookie warriors)

The funny thing is that most people making these types of comments about snipers are used to playing Imperial vrs Imperial, so at best you get one per attack. I’ve been playing Rebels (for now). Yep that’s two off the board thank you. Oh and a suppression too? You’re the boss. Also let’s not fail to mention that the imperial strike team is just better than the rebel version. Same price, but a 12.5% better chance of hitting.

Not to be bitter, but with the addition of the tank and Bossk, Rebels are in a bad place.

1 hour ago, Irokenics said:

Yeah you got it wrong. I'm not cool with being a defender that can't use the defence mechanisms in the game 😁 . I'm cool with it if the attacker has to pay the points and/or do the work to make it happen like with Luke, Vader, Boba Fett and Palpatine.

Otherwise just my 2 cents.

But the attacker is paying the points? 44 points for 2 models. They're well optimized for what they do, but they're not free. They also don't do a devastating amount of damage.

They're also one of the easiest unit in the game to simply avoid. You're complaining about not being able to use the game's defense mechanisms, but you're leaving out the game's PRIMARY defense mechanism, staying out of line of sight. Staying behind total cover. If you're playing with a proper amount of terrain thats not too difficult. You obviously shouldn't be able to rely on it all the time, but you should be able to avoid even multiple sniper teams much of the time.

2 minutes ago, JediPartisan said:

The funny thing is that most people making these types of comments about snipers are used to playing Imperial vrs Imperial, so at best you get one per attack. I’ve been playing Rebels (for now). Yep that’s two off the board thank you. Oh and a suppression too? You’re the boss. Also let’s not fail to mention that the imperial strike team is just better than the rebel version. Same price, but a 12.5% better chance of hitting.

Not to be bitter, but with the addition of the tank and Bossk, Rebels are in a bad place.

I’m not following your meaning. How is being a Rebel significantly worse than an Imperial? You still only get two dice either way, and Rebel commandos surge to hit, whereas scout troopers don’t surge, so they both average 1 hit. Which is the same, not 12.5% better for scouts.

The more interesting distinction is proton charge (rebel) vs sonic (imp) for the anti-tank vs anti-infantry action.

1 minute ago, JediPartisan said:

Woah, woah, woah, two per game? I have to call you on that. 😁 The funny thing is that most people making these types of comments about snipers are used to playing Imperial vrs Imperial, so at best you get one per attack. I’ve been playing Rebels (for now). Yep that’s two off the board thank you. Oh and a suppression too? You’re the boss. Also let’s not fail to mention that the imperial strike team is just better than the rebel version. Same price, but a 12.5% better chance of hitting.

Not to be bitter, but with the addition of the tank and Bossk, Rebels are in a bad place.

Rebels are still doing just fine so I don't know where you're getting that idea. You also don't know if most everyone whose commented has only been playing imp vs imp.

Snipers average 1 damage per attack on both sides and have the same rate of rolling 2 hits. That 12.5% isn't accurate at all as its only comparing it to the white die with surge, but the case is flipped with the black with surge. They perform identically for both factions. Except counter-play is arguably better for the rebels because of coordinated bombardment.

The tank is whatever frankly. It's only dangerous because of a pilot it comes with, but all heavies really should've had the surge to hit from the start. It's damage is only effective out of it's front arc, it has problems navagating in terrain, and it's weak spot is the largest portion of the model which snipers get guaranteed damage on.

Bossk is good, but without sharpshooter and an inconsistent attack pool he can't do much to targets in cover beyond putting suppression on them. His low HP pool for his defense means he won't last long if you try to bring him up into the fight either. The most dangerous part about him is the consistent 2 suppression from range 4, but imperial players already have plenty of ways to do that so it's not too big of a deal.

3 hours ago, Tirion said:

Heavies wreck snipers, especially the atst 

I agree snipers don't do much against heavies but heavies aren't competitive and so if you bring a heavy you lose to the other units. Not saying its a bad plan, double air speeder is a super fun build that I enjoy and it'll kill the snipers very fast but you don't win tournaments with it. Maybe once the new upgrades come out?

3 hours ago, ScummyRebel said:

Veers/Leia command cards negate them pretty quick

Leia has a 34% chance to kill both members on the team assuming they have cover. On average you kill 1 sniper team and wound the other two. Good but you still need a sniper team of your own to finish them off. Veers kills a sniper team reliably, and doesn't touch the other two. You still need snipers to finish them off. Anyone who has played snipers once or twice will keep one of the guys out of line of sight so they can't be killed by theses cards. Again, that comes down to terrain setup which is a whole different discussion I feel. At any given tournament you should play on tables with different terrain types and densities so you'll have games where snipers do well and others where they don't but I find that even if you are playing with lots of LOS blocking and they aren't killing guys then they are forcing them to hide and are still very relevant to the game.

8 hours ago, Derrault said:

Snipers are cheap because their damage potential is low, with a maximum of 2 wounds per activation. 

But it isn't just 2 wounds. Its 2 wounds anywhere because of their range. It kills the last guy in a squad running away with an objective. It suppress that unit that needs two moves to make it to the opponents deployment to win the game. The sniper team's power isn't from the ability it kill units. The sniper teams power is the ability to control the game; for them to put their shot where ever they want while staying out of harms way. Even if they don't do much shooting and just allow you to pad out when vital units activate they are worth the measly 44 points.

14 minutes ago, Jake the Hutt said:

But the attacker is paying the points? 44 points for 2 models. They're well optimized for what they do, but they're not free. They also don't do a devastating amount of damage.

My apologies, i wasn't clear. What i meant was units in the game that have similar keywords, damage output and are able to defend against them pay an additional premium for points.

Also a basic stormtrooper squad is 44 points and it does not compare to a Sniper Strike team with getting wounds through. Additionally, when a Sniper Strike team is wounded it doesn't lose attack dice where as a stormtrooper squad does. This is because most of the time they will keep the "spotter" mini out of LoS so it can't be defeated, and due to the strike team rules it becomes the sniper mini if the unit take wounds.

21 minutes ago, Jake the Hutt said:

They're also one of the easiest unit in the game to simply avoid. You're complaining about not being able to use the game's defense mechanisms, but you're leaving out the game's PRIMARY defense mechanism, staying out of line of sight. Staying behind total cover. If you're playing with a proper amount of terrain thats not too difficult. You obviously shouldn't be able to rely on it all the time, but you should be able to avoid even multiple sniper teams much of the time.

But there are a multitude of reasons why you need to be in LoS. Like claiming objectives, defending objectives, not enough terrain on your side of the deployment, deployment, wanting to attack a unit within range, keeping within a command range etc. Most of the time you are playing the game using the other defence mechanisms. I'm not complaining about them, im stating a fact that they are the only unit in the game negates most of the games built in defence mechanisms and they are cheap comparatively to other units that pay a premium to have it.

See, Adepticon's High Command had lots of LoS blocking terrain. And still the top 4 had 2-3 sniper strike teams. Are we saying that the lists that didn't have sniper strike teams could not 'simply avoid' them? Could they not stay out of LoS or get to Heavy Cover not 'too difficultly' ? TTS Invader League has lots of LoS blocking terrain, again the top lists have Sniper Strike teams. Both major tournaments people have access to the maps and they are still taking multiple sniper strike teams.

Maybe they are problem, maybe they are not. But the current list building method for most people is 'lets put 3 sniper strike teams in and go from there' .

21 minutes ago, Qark said:

I agree snipers don't do much against heavies but heavies aren't competitive and so if you bring a heavy you lose to the other units. Not saying its a bad plan, double air speeder is a super fun build that I enjoy and it'll kill the snipers very fast but you don't win tournaments with it. Maybe once the new upgrades come out?

Leia has a 34% chance to kill both members on the team assuming they have cover. On average you kill 1 sniper team and wound the other two. Good but you still need a sniper team of your own to finish them off. Veers kills a sniper team reliably, and doesn't touch the other two. You still need snipers to finish them off. Anyone who has played snipers once or twice will keep one of the guys out of line of sight so they can't be killed by theses cards. Again, that comes down to terrain setup which is a whole different discussion I feel. At any given tournament you should play on tables with different terrain types and densities so you'll have games where snipers do well and others where they don't but I find that even if you are playing with lots of LOS blocking and they aren't killing guys then they are forcing them to hide and are still very relevant to the game.

But it isn't just 2 wounds. Its 2 wounds anywhere because of their range. It kills the last guy in a squad running away with an objective. It suppress that unit that needs two moves to make it to the opponents deployment to win the game. The sniper team's power isn't from the ability it kill units. The sniper teams power is the ability to control the game; for them to put their shot where ever they want while staying out of harms way. Even if they don't do much shooting and just allow you to pad out when vital units activate they are worth the measly 44 points.

Sure, great, that’s still just two wounds.

With 1/4 of the table worth of terrain, the sniper team is just as susceptible to line of sight games, and it’s also points that definitely aren’t being used to score objectives themselves. And they’re vulnerable to hunter-killer units like the Speeder bikes and airspeeder in ways that units who can suffer greater incoming damage simply aren’t.

2 hours ago, Irokenics said:

See, Adepticon's High Command had lots of LoS blocking terrain. And still the top 4 had 2-3 sniper strike teams. Are we saying that the lists that didn't have sniper strike teams could not 'simply avoid' them? Could they not stay out of LoS or get to Heavy Cover not 'too difficultly' ? TTS Invader League has lots of LoS blocking terrain, again the top lists have Sniper Strike teams. Both major tournaments people have access to the maps and they are still taking multiple sniper strike teams.

I don't know. I didn't see the maps. But if players are looking at the maps and deciding taking 3 snipers is a good strategy that says to me the maps are poorly setup. Which isn't' surprising, really, Most tournaments have awful terrain setup in my experience.

As you mentioned, there are multiple reasons to be in LOS. And thats when you'll be vulnerable to a Sniper (or any other unit). But you SHOULD also be able to stay out of LOS much of the time. If you can't I think there's likely either not enough terrain, the terrain is deployed poorly or you're being outplayed.

All that said, sniper deal a consistent but pretty small amount of damage. often I'd rather stand on an objective and get shot by a sniper than another unit that has a larger damage potential, even if I can use Dodge or cover to try to negate it.

3 hours ago, Qark said:

But it isn't just 2 wounds. Its 2 wounds anywhere because of their range. It kills the last guy in a squad running away with an objective. It suppress that unit that needs two moves to make it to the opponents deployment to win the game. The sniper team's power isn't from the ability it kill units. The sniper teams power is the ability to control the game; for them to put their shot where ever they want while staying out of harms way. Even if they don't do much shooting and just allow you to pad out when vital units activate they are worth the measly 44 points.

Sniper shouldn't have that kind of command of the board. terrain should severely limit a sniper's field of fire. if you're letting a sniper have that kind of control over the game its no wonder they seem so powerful.


EDIT: Qark, Irokenics: I'm not trying to say that your points don't have merit. They certainly do. I just think that the situation can be at least partially balanced with better terrain.

I usually ignore them until my atrt flamer runs out of big unit targets. Then i flame strike teams in their nest.

Usually they only do 1 damage but can't get a bead on the same unit ao they have to spread it around

2 hours ago, JediPartisan said:

The funny thing is that most people making these types of comments about snipers are used to playing Imperial vrs Imperial, so at best you get one per attack. I’ve been playing Rebels (for now). Yep that’s two off the board thank you. Oh and a suppression too? You’re the boss. Also let’s not fail to mention that the imperial strike team is just better than the rebel version. Same price, but a 12.5% better chance of hitting.

Not to be bitter, but with the addition of the tank and Bossk, Rebels are in a bad place.

Imperial snipers are better than Rebel ones but Leia is in a whole different level than Veers

4 hours ago, Jake the Hutt said:

I don't know. I didn't see the maps. But if players are looking at the maps and deciding taking 3 snipers is a good strategy that says to me the maps are poorly setup. Which isn't' surprising, really, Most tournaments have awful terrain setup in my experience.

EDIT: Qark, Irokenics: I'm not trying to say that your points don't have merit. They certainly do. I just think that the situation can be at least partially balanced with better terrain.

I'm not sure if that's the right approach on analysing the performance of a unit. Like to say most events has had poor terrain setup to explain sniper performance is a huge claim.

If you check out the MOTF batreps, those tables have LoS blocking terrain everywhere and are considered as too much but the community. And snipers are still effective in those games.

What more terrain can you add to those tables? Unless you're playing on an Infinity table, I'm curious on how you apply terrain to balancing the problem. Can you please provide a photo of a table you've played on that you consider sniper balanced?

My sniper management approach is to try to get limited vis and beyond that just hope they miss.

But i lose a lot of games.

11 hours ago, Qark said:

Leia has a 34% chance to kill both members on the team assuming they have cover. On average you kill 1 sniper team and wound the other two. Good but you still need a sniper team of your own to finish them off. Veers kills a sniper team reliably, and doesn't touch the other two. You still need snipers to finish them off. Anyone who has played snipers once or twice will keep one of the guys out of line of sight so they can't be killed by theses cards.

Leia has sharpshooter 2 so she ignores cover. How is it relevant then for the sniper team to be in cover?

Leia has a 76.56% of scoring 2 hits out of 2 red dice. 2 of the 3 attacks you get both hits easy and for the third one you can always use your aim token.

So, almost 95% of the time, you get 2 hits in the 3 attacks from orbital attack.

Then enemy snipers only saves with white dice with surge. So every time Leia hits with both red dice, the sniper team has a 44.44% of dying both, a 44.44 of losing one soldier, and a 11.11% of surviving both. So if Leia hits all your sniper teams you can loose a lot of activations (and if only one survives he is easy prey for other snipers, single DLTs or something with range 4).

A couple of thoughts.

#1 - If you're using a reasonable amount of LOS blocking terrain, Snipers won't be able to see a portion of the battlefield. In most of the games I've played, there will be numerous rounds where Snipers get either no shot or have to take a sub-optimal shot against a unit you don't REALLY need to wound. If Snipers are dominating your local meta, you don't have enough LOS blocking terrain.

#2 - My answer is Med Droids. Snipers are really good at dealing one unavoidable wound. Med Droids are pretty good at healing that wound. At that point, you've spent 19 points (as an Imperial) to mitigate two rounds of successful Sniper shooting.

I don't know why so many people are running around saying that imperial snipers are better. Rebel commandos surge to hit so BW attack dice are comparable to BB attack dice without surge. Let's at least have a factually accurate discussion.

I honestly hate playing Sniper teams. But, they feel so necessary from an activation standpoint, and helping to at least zone out some areas of the board. They're so cheap. However, I always roll poorly with them and if they do zone out a space on the map, then no one is in their LOS, and they have to waste time moving and not shooting.

I would much rather run the Commandos as a full squad, but I routinely fit 10 activations into my lists thanks to the Sniper teams, but I'd love to get away from the high-activation and sniper "crutch" as I see it (personally, a crutch to me , I mean, not for all players in general). For me, I play Rebels against a whole lot of Imperial players, and am not very good in general, so being Blue player, and having, regularly, more activations, feels like where I usually have the advantage.

9 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

I don't know why so many people are running around saying that imperial snipers are better. Rebel commandos surge to hit so BW attack dice are comparable to BB attack dice without surge. Let's at least have a factually accurate discussion.

Assuming an aim and cover two on the target, Imperial snipers actually ARE a bit better, though the difference is slight. The table below is from Never Tell Me the Odds, and details how imps with an aim are slightly (about 3%) more accurate than their rebel counterparts, but their higher variance means they are also ever-so-slightly more likely to whiff completely on a target out of cover.

DLT-19x on the left, DH-447 on the right.

13 hours ago, Senjius said:

Leia has sharpshooter 2 so she ignores cover. How is it relevant then for the sniper team to be in cover?

Leia has a 76.56% of scoring 2 hits out of 2 red dice. 2 of the 3 attacks you get both hits easy and for the third one you can always use your aim token.

So, almost 95% of the time, you get 2 hits in the 3 attacks from orbital attack.

Then enemy snipers only saves with white dice with surge. So every time Leia hits with both red dice, the sniper team has a 44.44% of dying both, a 44.44 of losing one soldier, and a 11.11% of surviving both. So if Leia hits all your sniper teams you can loose a lot of activations (and if only one survives he is easy prey for other snipers, single DLTs or something with range 4).

As others have pointed out, however, any player worth their salt who has run sniper teams before will never give you a clean shot at both snipers in one activation. Corner hiding one of the snipers is standard play in every match I have ever seen, meaning you can never kill more than one man from the team in a single activation. It isn't the cover that is relevant here, but the line of sight.

You can't hit what you can't see, and that dang second sniper never seems to quite poke his head out!

Depending on how the new mortar works for the Shoretroopers, it may be a good counter to the sniper teams (indirect fires are often a good counter against snipers in the real world....) but indirect fires don't quiet seem to work in this game...yet.

8 minutes ago, Jedhead said:

Assuming an aim and cover two on the target, Imperial snipers actually ARE a bit better, though the difference is slight. The table below is from Never Tell Me the Odds, and details how imps with an aim are slightly (about 3%) more accurate than their rebel counterparts, but their higher variance means they are also ever-so-slightly more likely to whiff completely on a target out of cover.

DLT-19x on the left, DH-447 on the right.

Even with the very minor advantage to hit with an aim, the difference is so minor that it's not going to be noticeable in game. The imp snipers are also more likely to completely miss the shot against a target with no cover with or without the aim as well, so I really wouldn't call them better.

maybe something needs to be done to nerf high action count armies. like players can pass and or the player with the larger number of activations does not get to activate one of their units.

1 minute ago, thepopemobile100 said:

Even with the very minor advantage to hit with an aim, the difference is so minor that it's not going to be noticeable in game. The imp snipers are also more likely to completely miss the shot against a target with no cover with or without the aim as well, so I really wouldn't call them better.

I agree completely that the difference is nearly negligible. I was simply noting that in cover two and with an aim (the most common sniping conditions) Imperials do come out slightly ahead, so that may be where people are getting it.

It's probably best to wait and see if the meta chances once CW stuff gets released. I'm sure snipers aren't going to be that great against 6 point droids!

2 hours ago, Jedhead said:

Assuming an aim and cover two on the target, Imperial snipers actually ARE a bit better, though the difference is slight. The table below is from Never Tell Me the Odds, and details how imps with an aim are slightly (about 3%) more accurate than their rebel counterparts, but their higher variance means they are also ever-so-slightly more likely to whiff completely on a target out of cover.

DLT-19x on the left, DH-447 on the right.

Those tables are incorrect.

DH-447 (no cover) (also applies to cover 1, because Sharpshooter 1 negates that, but that’s a different critique), under red, no aim, lists: 0 wounds (24%), 1 wound (59%), 2 wounds (18%).

24+59+18=101%. Ahem. Similarly the column for DLT-19x white no aim no cover only adds to 99%, as do aim and no aim cover 2; DH-447 White surge aim no cover (and cover 2) are also 99%.

Commando sniper (surge to hit):

black die: .625 (.5 hit, .125 crit,); .375 miss

white die: .375 (.25 hit, .125 crit); .625 miss

Scout troopers (no surge):

2x black die: .5 (.375 hit, .125 crit); .5 miss

Given that the probabilities are 5/8 + 3/8 vs 4/8 + 4/8, there is no meaningful difference.

45 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Those tables are incorrect.

DH-447 (no cover) (also applies to cover 1, because Sharpshooter 1 negates that, but that’s a different critique), under red, no aim, lists: 0 wounds (24%), 1 wound (59%), 2 wounds (18%).

24+59+18=101%. Ahem. Similarly the column for DLT-19x white no aim no cover only adds to 99%, as do aim and no aim cover 2; DH-447 White surge aim no cover (and cover 2) are also 99%.

Commando sniper (surge to hit):

black die: .625 (.5 hit, .125 crit,); .375 miss

white die: .375 (.25 hit, .125 crit); .625 miss

Scout troopers (no surge):

2x black die: .5 (.375 hit, .125 crit); .5 miss

Given that the probabilities are 5/8 + 3/8 vs 4/8 + 4/8, there is no meaningful difference.

Two things:

First, tables such as this often add up to 101% or 99% due to rounding of extremely close numbers. I did not make the tables, though, so I cannot vouch for their complete accuracy.

Second, I actually agree with you that the probabilities do not possess a meaningful difference. But there is still a difference , especially when aim is taken into account in a cover 2 situation. As you pointed out, an unmodified roll by each sniper team possesses the same expected raw damage outcome on average (with Imperials skewed ever so slightly more toward the extremes and rebels skewed ever so slightly more toward one hit). Once you modify the roll with an aim, the different probability of each of the rebel dice modifies the outcome slightly more in favor of the Imperials, though, mostly due to the less reliable white die and the effect of re-rolls on it versus the more reliable black dice re-rolls of the imperials. I agree that this difference is not really significant (as mentioned above it is around 3%), but it is present and may be where people get the idea that imperial snipers are "better." In cover 2, aim token situations they are better...just not by very much. 😉

I agree with you that the amount by which they are superior is trivial, while others apparently do not.