7 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Intentions mean little; Lucas also intended for Jar Jar Binks to be a much beloved character.

But... what if we're paving the way to H***? I feel they'd be a big deal there...

35 minutes ago, DangerShine Designs said:

You’re right, that’s TOTALLY the same thing, you’re not reaching at all there.

Certainly not reaching any further than anyone else in this thread. Whether Lincoln was a hero or a villain is not black/white, and like many things that happened 150 years ago, hypotheses are difficult(if not impossible) to prove or disprove. Moreover (and most importantly) it doesn't it seem very pertinent to this topic.

Back to the topic: Has nobody brought up how the Japanese empire was literally an Empire with a deified Emperor in command? Seems like it may have a passing semblance to the Galactic Empire. (Believe it or not, fictional universes can get influences from a variety of historical sources, are are not direct parallels to history). Xenophobia was also a trait of the Imperial Japanese empire, as well as the Nazi's, so they share that. Additionally, the War in the Pacific literally defined the role of fighters (starfighters) in larger naval engagements (capships), so that definitely shaped this universe.

While I was racking my brain to draw parallels to contribute to this thread, I remembered the Japanese soldiers who didn't surrender for 20+ years after the war was over. Can you imagine a campaign based on imperial soldiers who never surrendered after Endor/Jakku? Would they hold out until the First Order showed up? How would they get along with the First Order when it did arrive?

17 hours ago, RogueCorona said:

I don't know enough about Japan's super weapon projects to comment on those. However Germany had its own plans for super battleships some of which were significantly heavier then both the Yamato class and its planned Japanese successor class.

The H-series. Yes - though some of them were as much thought experiment (to see what was needed to make a 'superbattleship' which could survive any forseeable threat) as seriously planned design. There is a degree of high similarity to the fate of the Galactic Empire in WWII Germany's fate in that whilst they produced quite a few things which could be considered 'superweapons' (like the Konigstiger or Sturmvogel, or the Luftwaffe's obsession with high-level strategic bombing) they were always too short of numbers of actual, practical weapons to win conventionally - consider this a parallel to the Death Star vs TIE Defender debate we see in Rebels,

17 hours ago, RogueCorona said:

As for comparing Japan and the Empire versus Germany and the Empire Germany was newly transformed into an Empire much as Palpatine's Empire was while Japan had long been an Empire.

In both cases they were a state turning expansionist - simply being an Empire doesn't necessarily make a place evil - deciding that the rest of the south china sea would just love being part of the Greater Asian Co-Prosperity Sphere and trying to forcibly incorporate them as economic slaves does.

4 minutes ago, oneeyedmatt87 said:

Has nobody brought up how the Japanese empire was literally an Empire with a deified Emperor in command? Seems like it may have a passing semblance to the Galactic Empire. (Believe it or not, fictional universes can get influences from a variety of historical sources, are are not direct parallels to history)

I don't think Palpatine was ever given a public deification; as far as everyone was concerned he was the man who won the clone wars, but I don't think anyone except his very closest inner circle (who knew he was Darth Sidious) thought there was anything 'special' about him.

8 minutes ago, oneeyedmatt87 said:

Whether Lincoln was a hero or a villain is not black/white, and like many things that happened 150 years ago, hypotheses are difficult(if not impossible) to prove or disprove. Moreover (and most importantly) it doesn't it seem very pertinent to this topic.

Agreed. Pretty much every idolized war hero, from Churchill to Washington, has some serious feet of clay if you poke at their history. That doesn't make them completely heros or villains.

21 minutes ago, oneeyedmatt87 said:

While I was racking my brain to draw parallels to contribute to this thread, I remembered the Japanese soldiers who didn't surrender for 20+ years after the war was over. Can you imagine a campaign based on imperial soldiers who never surrendered after Endor/Jakku? Would they hold out until the First Order showed up? How would they get along with the First Order when it did arrive?

The Poe Dameron comics feature Terex, who was an imperial stormtrooper - his attitude to the First Order is rather dismissive, to be honest.

I think it's clear that like the Nazis and Imperial Japan, the Empire is an oppressive and evil government that is headed by a totalitarian authority. It just so happens that The Emperor is also a figure of spiritual evil as well, so while he may not have been properly deified, the way that he raised himself to a position of complete and total authority is close enough in my book. His word was law and he brooked no disagreement. Given the audience knowledge that he was actually evil in a metaphysical sense, anyone so inclined can easily make comparisons to Hitler, but the Emperor of Japan not so much.

I think that what I was wondering about was indeed similarity in functioning of the war machine itself, and something that might be like the militarists of Japan who helped to make the brutality of the Japanese military so sadistic and cruel.

57 minutes ago, Archlyte said:

I think it's clear that like the Nazis and Imperial Japan, the Empire is an oppressive and evil government that is headed by a totalitarian authority. It just so happens that The Emperor is also a figure of spiritual evil as well, so while he may not have been properly deified, the way that he raised himself to a position of complete and total authority is close enough in my book. His word was law and he brooked no disagreement. Given the audience knowledge that he was actually evil in a metaphysical sense, anyone so inclined can easily make comparisons to Hitler, but the Emperor of Japan not so much.

I think that what I was wondering about was indeed similarity in functioning of the war machine itself, and something that might be like the militarists of Japan who helped to make the brutality of the Japanese military so sadistic and cruel.

I see where you're coming from, but still there really isn't much of a comparison there. The factors of "Cause" and motivation are different. regardless of how "cruel" we might see the actions of certain Japanese "militarists", the one thing that they all had, that that the Empire and the Nazi's lacked, was the Japanese sense of honor; the Samurai code of Bushido . The reasons why they treated prisoners of war cruelly is because, by their sense of honor, anyone who would surrender has lost all honor , and was thus unworthy of decency or good treatment. A Japanese soldier, much less an officer, would sooner take his own life through Seppeku than surrender, and they expected the same of their foes. Also, they weren't so much interested in world domination, so much as in need of resources that Japan lacked. Hitler, and Emperor Palpatine were both out for total domination and conquest for the sake of conquest and domination. For Japan conquest was a means to an end. For the Nazis and for the Galactic Empire, conquest and domination was an end unto itself.

5 hours ago, Tramp Graphics said:

I see where you're coming from, but still there really isn't much of a comparison there. The factors of "Cause" and motivation are different. regardless of how "cruel" we might see the actions of certain Japanese "militarists", the one thing that they all had, that that the Empire and the Nazi's lacked, was the Japanese sense of honor; the Samurai code of Bushido . The reasons why they treated prisoners of war cruelly is because, by their sense of honor, anyone who would surrender has lost all honor , and was thus unworthy of decency or good treatment. A Japanese soldier, much less an officer, would sooner take his own life through Seppeku than surrender, and they expected the same of their foes. Also, they weren't so much interested in world domination, so much as in need of resources that Japan lacked. Hitler, and Emperor Palpatine were both out for total domination and conquest for the sake of conquest and domination. For Japan conquest was a means to an end. For the Nazis and for the Galactic Empire, conquest and domination was an end unto itself.

If you don't feel the Japanese were cruel then I don't know what to say. I like the whole Bushido thing but I think it only has a place in a primitive society. The Japanese conducted live vivisection of human beings and tested flamethrowers on children, and not as collateral but as the intended victim of the test. I guess you could label anything honor but objectively that is just sadism.

back on the topic, do you feel that any branch of the Imperial Military might have had such an honor system? Or are they all basically Colonel Clink and Sgt. Schultz?

Schultz is actually much more intelligent then most people think. He knew what Hogan's Heroes were doing he just didn't want to stop them. I believe its in the pilot episode where he tells Hogan he knows what is going on and won't interfere as long as Hogan agrees to let him come along if the group decides to escape the camp.

19 hours ago, Archlyte said:

If you don't feel the Japanese were cruel then I don't know what to say. I like the whole Bushido thing but I think it only has a place in a primitive society. The Japanese conducted live vivisection of human beings and tested flamethrowers on children, and not as collateral but as the intended victim of the test. I guess you could label anything honor but objectively that is just sadism.

back on the topic, do you feel that any branch of the Imperial Military might have had such an honor system? Or are they all basically Colonel Clink and Sgt. Schultz?

I didn't say that they weren't cruel. I said that the reason why they were cruel to their prisoners of war is because they felt that people who surrender or allow themselves to be captured, rather than fight to the death, are without honor and thus not deserving of decency, and only deserving of an ignoble death. It should also be noted that Japan was (and, in a sense) is essentially a feudal society. Up until the late 1800's the Samurai class ruled Japan; if you were not Samurai, you essentially had few if any rights . A samurai could kill a non samurai on the spot for any reason, the slightest offense, real or imagined . If you were not Japanese, you weren't even considered a person. There was no "individuality". It was all about fealty. A samurai had fealty to the Emperor, the Shogun, his Damyio, to his family, in that order . His own personal wishes, personal freedom, individual choice, was inconsequential and meaningless . Everything revolved around your lord and your family. That mentality existed in WWII. That mentality still exists today, with the Damyio being replaced by the corporation. So, Japan still to this very day is an honor based society. Honor is everything.

On 4/30/2019 at 1:22 PM, Tramp Graphics said:

I didn't say that they weren't cruel. I said that the reason why they were cruel to their prisoners of war is because they felt that people who surrender or allow themselves to be captured, rather than fight to the death, are without honor and thus not deserving of decency, and only deserving of an ignoble death. It should also be noted that Japan was (and, in a sense) is essentially a feudal society. Up until the late 1800's the Samurai class ruled Japan; if you were not Samurai, you essentially had few if any rights . A samurai could kill a non samurai on the spot for any reason, the slightest offense, real or imagined . If you were not Japanese, you weren't even considered a person. There was no "individuality". It was all about fealty. A samurai had fealty to the Emperor, the Shogun, his Damyio, to his family, in that order . His own personal wishes, personal freedom, individual choice, was inconsequential and meaningless . Everything revolved around your lord and your family. That mentality existed in WWII. That mentality still exists today, with the Damyio being replaced by the corporation. So, Japan still to this very day is an honor based society. Honor is everything.

well Tramp I was reacting to a line where you seemed to feel that cruel was subjective and I wanted to highlight that I feel like it was objective cruelty. Aside from that I get your points and agree.

On 4/30/2019 at 4:31 AM, RogueCorona said:

Schultz is actually much more intelligent then most people think. He knew what Hogan's Heroes were doing he just didn't want to stop them. I believe its in the pilot episode where he tells Hogan he knows what is going on and won't interfere as long as Hogan agrees to let him come along if the group decides to escape the camp.

Nope. The actor was jewish and schults ank kilnk wete contractually morons.

5 hours ago, Daeglan said:

Nope. The actor was jewish and schults ank kilnk wete contractually morons.

What does the actor being Jewish have anything to do with the character?

3 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

What does the actor being Jewish have anything to do with the character?

The actor required the character to be a moron.

2 minutes ago, Daeglan said:

The actor required the character to be a moron.

Interesting. Thank you for that.

2 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Interesting. Thank you for that.

No problem. One of them actually spent time in a concentration camp. So the other requirement was that there be nothing redeamable about the character. So basically stupid and evil.

14 hours ago, Daeglan said:

The actor required the character to be a moron.

I think that was only Klink not Schlutz. Both were played by jewish actors but from what I've read Schlutz's actor didn't hate his character and didn't consider Schlutz to be a dedicated Nazi just someone who was trying to get by under the Nazi regime. If I remember correctly wasn't Schlutz either drafted or had to join the military because it was the only job he could find after the Nazi government converted his family's toy factory to military production?

11 hours ago, RogueCorona said:

I think that was only Klink not Schlutz. Both were played by jewish actors but from what I've read Schlutz's actor didn't hate his character and didn't consider Schlutz to be a dedicated Nazi just someone who was trying to get by under the Nazi regime. If I remember correctly wasn't Schlutz either drafted or had to join the military because it was the only job he could find after the Nazi government converted his family's toy factory to military production?

That would be accurate. And, yes, he did deliberately turn a blind eye to the activities of Hogan and his men.

On 4/25/2019 at 12:22 PM, Black_Rabbit_Inle said:

Another obvious tie is in military doctrine. For example, Tie fighters being relatively cheap, fragile, and short range, but highly maneuverable, pretty much directly corresponds to our view of Japanese planes. The giant star-destroyers are also much closer to the IJN use of battle ships than it is to the Kriegsmarine's heavy reliance on submarines.

This is what I was going to add as well.

The Empire in Star Wars seems to be based off of a mix between the concepts of the German military until they’re involved in space combat and they’re using Japanese equipment. TIE Fighters and the planes utilized by the Japanese are easily synonymous in concept with their maneuverability and how easy they are to destroy (the Japanese “Zero” didn’t have self sealing fuel tanks/the TIE Fighter doesn’t have shields, both could out maneuver their adversaries). That being said the Zero did have good range due to its increase in fuel without the added weight of the self sealing fuel tank, so the whole thing just comes off as a grab-bag by Lucas doing whatever he thought was best for the films he was making.

I’ll also echo that the space battles seem to be modeled after the Pacific Theatre of War more than say the Battle of the Atlantic. Star Destroyers to me seem like a carrier battle group rolled into one ship more than just a battleship, but that’s a “tomato/to-mah-to” kind of nitpickiness, you still end up with the same results.

Good insight on your part, Black Rabbit.

On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 7:12 AM, Flavorabledeez said:

I’ll also echo that the space battles seem to be modeled after the Pacific Theatre of War more than say the Battle of the Atlantic. Star Destroyers to me seem like a carrier battle group rolled into one ship more than just a battleship, but that’s a “tomato/to-mah-to” kind of nitpickiness, you still end up with the same results.

Yeah, the point I was trying to make was really more that the German navy was better known for it's use of submarine warfare while the Imperial Japanese Navy was better known for using capital ships.. surely the Kriegsmarine had capital ships and the Imperial Japanese Navy had submarines.. but I feel like, when it comes to naval combat, we mostly remember Germany for their U-boat "wolf pack" tactics and we remember the IJN for the attack on pearl harbor and the other capital ship engagements at midway, and leyte gulf.

Germany created "super-weapons" and had ideas for more, but they didn't bankrupt themselves to the degree that japan did in order to make those ideas a reality. Japan literally used the Yamato as a hotel because they couldn't afford to lose it. (as far as I know, Germany seems to have had more concepts than Japan, but if they thought it couldn't afford it, they would stop working on it.)

I'll also point out that "Bushido" wasn't exactly well understood in the 40's.. even by most Japanese. The samurai caste had been abolished roughly 70 years earlier. Since the former samurai and their descendants were among the wealthiest and best educated of the Japanese people, most of them went into business and politics, leaving very few of the samurai descendants in the military. The military tried to change this by requiring texts like "hagakure" for military training, but forcing someone to read a book doesn't necessarily make one understand and accept the practices of that book. This seems somewhat akin to Palpatine, Vader, and some others in the empire being strong adherents of the force, while most of the rank and file around them considered the force to be outdated superstition.

On 4/22/2019 at 1:33 AM, RogueCorona said:

Perhaps but after the PT it looks closer to Lincoln then Hitler to me for the reasons I stated in my first post. The biggest change comes at the end of the US Civil War for Lincoln and the Clone Wars for Palpatine with Lincoln dying and Palpatine living to become Emperor.

Lucas has given interviews where he said that Palpatine is based on Nixon. However there are similarities to both the American civil war (Grand Army of the Republic) and to Hitler (rise to power), also possible Kaiser Wilhelm, (stormtroopers being from WWI).

48 minutes ago, Eoen said:

Lucas has given interviews where he said that Palpatine is based on Nixon.

Well that's...um...something...? Really?

3 hours ago, HappyDaze said:

Well that's...um...something...? Really?

"George Lucas has admitted that one of the biggest influences on the series was the Nixon era. In an interview with the Chicago Tribune, Lucas said Star Wars “was really about the Vietnam War, and that was the period where Nixon was trying to run for a [second] term, which got me to thinking historically about how do democracies get turned into dictatorships? Because the democracies aren’t overthrown; they’re given away.”

"Lucas has also expressed that Emperor Palpatine, or Darth Sidious, was directly inspired by Nixon, which makes a lot of sense given the the nose. In “The Making of Star Wars: Return of the Jedi,” when asked if Emperor Palpatine was a Jedi at one point in his life, Lucas responded, “No, he was a politician. Richard M. Nixon was his name. He subverted the senate and finally took over and became an imperial guy and he was really evil. But he pretended to be a really nice guy.”

So in a way the Viet Cong and the NVA are the rebel alliance.

Speaking about Japan, I have a feeling that the First Order strike in the Sequel Trilogy is similar to Japan's plan to take over the Pacific during WW2.

Starkiller destroying Hosnian Prime (and the Republic fleet with it) is their Pearl Harbor, and then expending rapidly in the galaxy before what's left of the Republic and their allies have time to organized themselves and strike back.

On 4/29/2019 at 5:49 PM, Archlyte said:

If you don't feel the Japanese were cruel then I don't know what to say. I like the whole Bushido thing but I think it only has a place in a primitive society. The Japanese conducted live vivisection of human beings and tested flamethrowers on children, and not as collateral but as the intended victim of the test. I guess you could label anything honor but objectively that is just sadism.

back on the topic, do you feel that any branch of the Imperial Military might have had such an honor system? Or are they all basically Colonel Clink and Sgt. Schultz?

We all grew up with them teaching WWII propaganda to us. Who knows what Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan where really like. Japan to this day is completely unrepentant about WWII, and their scholars often disagree with the statements of ours. It should be noted they were our ally in WWI.

I know the United States maneuvered Japan into attacking it, through economic warfare. We where already fighting a proxy war with them in China through most of the 1930’s. We had volunteer airmen who later became flag officers in the US Army Air Corps commanding the Flying Tigers. After they invaded one of the Aleutian Islands we adopted a no prisoner policy in the Pacific theater. It’s not as if they wouldn’t have surrendered, but our answer to that was a bayonet, bullet or grenade.

The US was a fledgling colonial power in the early twentieth century. The first place Japan really went after were our overseas colonial possessions namely The Philippines, China, and Hawaii (which was only a raid).

13 minutes ago, Eoen said:

We all grew up with them teaching WWII propaganda to us. Who knows what Nazi Germany and Imperial Japan where really like. Japan to this day is completely unrepentant about WWII, and their scholars completely disagree with the statements of ours. It should be noted they were our ally in WWI.

I know the United States maneuvered Japan into attacking it, through economic warfare. We where already fighting a proxy war with them in China through most of the 1930’s. We had volunteer airmen who later became flag officers in the US Army Air Corps commanding the Flying Tigers. After they invaded one of the Aleutian Islands we adopted a no prisoner policy in the Pacific theater. It’s not as if they wouldn’t have surrendered, but our answer to that was a bayonet, bullet or grenade.

The US was a fledgling colonial power in the early twentieth century. The first place Japan really went after were our overseas colonial possessions namely The Philippines, China, and Hawaii, which was only a raid.

Accurate assessment of the US as a colonial power aside, the Japanese Empire wasn't "maneuvered" into attacking the Pacific or mainland Asia by the US. Their imperialist ambitions did that. And as to who knows what the fascist states where really like, I'd say their victims. Countless accounts from Chinese, Korean, Philipino, Malaysian, Indonesian, and other Polynesian groups and cultures can attest to the horrors of Japanese occupation and the numerous war crimes/crimes against humanity. And I'd hardly consider a loan to the Kuomintang, a fighter squadron, and a single general D.C. wanted to kick out as a proxies war.

All this aside, on the question of the Japanese and Galactic Empires, I think the Empire took some inspiration mainly from Nazi Germany, the British Empire, Cold War/Vietnam Era America, and Imperial Japan. It was based more on the idea of fascism and authoritarianism than any one concrete source, but they followed similar trends, and thus were bound to have them as references.

Just now, Dayham said:

Accurate assessment of the US as a colonial power aside, the Japanese Empire wasn't "maneuvered" into attacking the Pacific or mainland Asia by the US. Their imperialist ambitions did that. And as to who knows what the fascist states where really like, I'd say their victims. Countless accounts from Chinese, Korean, Philipino, Malaysian, Indonesian, and other Polynesian groups and cultures can attest to the horrors of Japanese occupation and the numerous war crimes/crimes against humanity. And I'd hardly consider a loan to the Kuomintang, a fighter squadron, and a single general D.C. wanted to kick out as a proxies war.

All this aside, on the question of the Japanese and Galactic Empires, I think the Empire took some inspiration mainly from Nazi Germany, the British Empire, Cold War/Vietnam Era America, and Imperial Japan. It was based more on the idea of fascism and authoritarianism than any one concrete source, but they followed similar trends, and thus were bound to have them as references.

We killed a couple hundred thousand Phillpino's after we "liberated" them from the Spanish just two generations previous to Japans invasion. We invaded the Hawaiian Kingdom with Marines and (eventual annexed it) at the request of American Ranchers around the same time. We where busy carving up China (and had Marines on the ground in the Boxer rebellion) along with England, France, Russia and Germany during that time as well. Maybe the Japanese went the old adage "better our crooks than theirs", they Asian Co-prosperity Sphere was their attempt at being that crook an Asian, crook not a European one. The countries they invaded where all European colonial possessions at the time, Japan was acting like an Empire that wanted their sphere of influence, which is the same impulse that gave us the Monro Doctrine (which I'm sure South America still doesn't much care for as we are still meddling there).

As for atrocities who invented firebombing of cities (the English, followed by America), Nuclear bombs and used them (America). WWII was full of asshats.

1 minute ago, Eoen said:

We killed a couple hundred thousand Phillpino's after we "liberated" them from the Spanish just two generations previous to Japans invasion. We invaded the Hawaiian Kingdom with Marines and (eventual annexed it) at the request of American Ranchers around the same time. We where busy carving up China (and had Marines on the ground in the Boxer rebellion) along with England, France, Russia and Germany during that time as well. Maybe the Japanese went the old adage "better our crooks than theirs", they Asian Co-prosperity Sphere was their attempt at being that crook an Asian, crook not a European one. The countries they invaded where all European colonial possessions at the time, Japan was acting like an Empire that wanted their sphere of influence, which is the same impulse that gave us the Monro Doctrine (which I'm sure South America still doesn't much care for as we are still meddling there).

As for atrocities who invented firebombing of cities (the English, followed by America), Nuclear bombs and used them (America). WWII was full of asshats.

You're right about the atrocities, I just got the impression that you were white washing Japan. Sorry if I misinterpreted you.