1 hour ago, Vontoothskie said:

phone requirement and spliting an already small community

I appreciate @Jeff Wilder's sentiment that nothing HOTAC has been as well balanced as OG HOTAC and the missions might need to be rebalanced around the new stat lines and action bars, but I have to disagree that the "phone requirement" would make any difference. I've never seen physical FFG cards on a HOTAC table since it was all written/printed sheets and cardboard AI charts.

3 hours ago, nitrobenz said:

I appreciate @Jeff Wilder's sentiment that nothing HOTAC has been as well balanced as OG HOTAC and the missions might need to be rebalanced around the new stat lines and action bars, but I have to disagree that the "phone requirement" would make any difference. I've never seen physical FFG cards on a HOTAC table since it was all written/printed sheets and cardboard AI charts.

For when i've ran it/played it, you do keep the upgrade cards for your ship, but that's about it. Rarely do you need them for the AI ships, other than for munitions or the stealth device ship mod..

While our group is small and we've picked up more people, I know of two players that quit for different reasons. One sold his stuff due to hitting hard times and the other lost his **** mind when 2E was announced and tossed out all his ships and cards swearing off on buying anything FFG again. We'd only see him when X-Wing and Magic game nights overlapped and he's since been banned from the store for ripping up some kid's card after he lost a game. (dude is pushing middle aged... one of the saddest things I've ever witnessed)

54 minutes ago, Kehl_Aecea said:

While our group is small and we've picked up more people, I know of two players that quit for different reasons. One sold his stuff due to hitting hard times and the other lost his **** mind when 2E was announced and tossed out all his ships and cards swearing off on buying anything FFG again. We'd only see him when X-Wing and Magic game nights overlapped and he's since been banned from the store for ripping up some kid's card after he lost a game. (dude is pushing middle aged... one of the saddest things I've ever witnessed)

If what you say is accurate, it sounds like the second case wasn't that big a loss for your group as a whole.

For our group, attendance died down a bit after 2E was announced, as people some people decided to quit and others lost interest in 1E after hearing about the great stuff coming in 2E. Once 2E dropped, we started picking up a couple players, but attendance stayed low until after the points readjustment, when our numbers started picking up again. We're still a little low (6-8 usually), but I think we may pick up more younger players once school gets out for the summer.

As @JJ48 says, we lost a few players between 2nd ed being announced and its release.

Since then, we've trebled our previously small group and it's thriving. The new edition has been excellent for getting new players and rekindling enthusiasm in several older players, but did trigger a couple of departures.

We have about 10-12 players at our local club on the regular. All of them played 1.0 in some way. Some play it less often now due to also playing Legion or other games, but they will still play every 2/3 weeks or so.
And we've had other people see us play and get interested/have demos.

Only friends I know who dropped X-Wing did so before 2.0 was even announced.

Nonoe of them; in fact, I even managed to bring 2 more to the fray!

Lost perhaps one but that had more to do with the rise of Legion than the advent of 2.0

The rest are all still in it. I’ve even helped stand up a new community closer to my own area.

We had a lot of attrition around the end of First Ed. Dropping like flies except for a very staunch core group who defended the first edition right up to the announcement of second. The conversion had an interesting revolving door thing for us where some bailed because they couldn't be bothered to spend the $50 and were just being whinny about the whole thing and others like me came back with gusto. But largely we're as a group rebuilding from scratch. There's maybe five or six of an old crew of over twenty. But we're getting regular traffic again.

For me the take away from X-wing game history is how much a game can be mismanaged from a design and production standpoint to drive a customer base away, and sunder a community. We were so close to being the M:tg of Miniatures and we're back to square one (okay we're on like three now) with rebuilding our local group. But we are rebuilding. It's just slow because the two mistakes FFG made were but fixing the problems they had with first when they should have, and dragging their heels on a second edition. I'm curious to see what lessons they learn from this and apply to Armada and Imperial Assault.

1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:

We were so close to being the M:tg of Miniatures

What does this mean?

I got out about 2000 (because roleplaying took over Magic night) and have gotten back in because of the lull in X-wing and my wife getting hooked on the game as I started to sell it off this year.

To me, MTG seems crazy successful.

1 hour ago, ForceSensitive said:

The conversion had an interesting revolving door thing for us where some bailed because they couldn't be bothered to spend the $50 and were just being whinny about the whole thing and others like me came back with gusto.

I don't think it's fair to say people were whining about spending $50. Maybe if they were playing just one faction and didn't have huge collection, but for me and many others I know, it took a core set and 4, 5, or even 6 conversion kits to cover them. That was before we even got the Resistance/First Order packs.

I know the pack contents annoyed more people here than anything. Covering so many Decimators but only a handful of Fighters. Covering so many Falcons, but only covering a pair of A-wings. That in itself caused a lot of justifiable whining that lead to people canning it.

25 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

I don't think it's fair to say people were whining about spending $50. Maybe if they were playing just one faction and didn't have huge collection, but for me and many others I know, it took a core set and 4, 5, or even 6 conversion kits to cover them. That was before we even got the Resistance/First Order packs.

I know the pack contents annoyed more people here than anything. Covering so many Decimators but only a handful of Fighters. Covering so many Falcons, but only covering a pair of A-wings. That in itself caused a lot of justifiable whining that lead to people canning it.

All this.

I fit the first part 100%.

For the second part, one reason I'm willing to convert Resistance is price point. But possibly more importantly, the kit matches my collection.

Unless Epic is so awesome I can't help myself, I will only ever play Empire as 1.0.

23 minutes ago, Darth Meanie said:

What does this mean?

I got out about 2000 (because roleplaying took over Magic night) and have gotten back in because of the lull in X-wing and my wife getting hooked on the game as I started to sell it off this year.

To me, MTG seems crazy successful.

I think that was his point. He was saying that, in his opinion, X-Wing was close to being as big as MtG (in their respective fields, at least), and FFG screwed it up with how they handled the reboot.

14 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

I don't think it's fair to say people were whining about spending $50. Maybe if they were playing just one faction and didn't have huge collection, but for me and many others I know, it took a core set and 4, 5, or even 6 conversion kits to cover them. That was before we even got the Resistance/First Order packs.

I know the pack contents annoyed more people here than anything. Covering so many Decimators but only a handful of Fighters. Covering so many Falcons, but only covering a pair of A-wings. That in itself caused a lot of justifiable whining that lead to people canning it.

Perhaps, but on the other hand, I think we were doomed to that sort of thing regardless. If they had covered more A-Wings, say, that would have been great for people who wanted to fly A-Wing swarms. On the other hand, people like me who only own a pair of A-Wings would have been stuck wondering why I'm paying for a lot of extra cardboard that only supports one particular list. Unless they broke it down into individual components (and therefore had an entire edition's worth of new products to have to put out, even before getting to new material), a sizable portion of the community was bound to find that the kits didn't fit their collections. Instead, FFG went with a balanced, generic conversion kit with at least two of every ship and a couple more for some.

I'd say people are justified in their disappointment that the kit doesn't match their collection, but I'd hesitate to say that a lot of the whining was justified, since much of the whining that I recall was, "Why didn't FFG tailor the kits to my collection?" or "Why didn't FFG implement <insert personally preferred solution> instead, even though there are at least as many faults with that solution, too?"

2 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I think that was his point. He was saying that, in his opinion, X-Wing was close to being as big as MtG (in their respective fields, at least), and FFG screwed it up with how they handled the reboot.

Ah, I read that backwards, I guess. That somehow mtg almost screwed up.

In Indy we had just shy of 10 people playing each Wednesday at the end of 1.0 on a good night. Now we have 20 signing up for league each month and 14-16 or so showing up each Wednesday. Most of that increase is new players to 2.0 with 1 or 2 players returning who quit 1.0 a while back.

31 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

I think that was his point. He was saying that, in his opinion, X-Wing was close to being as big as MtG (in their respective fields, at least), and FFG screwed it up with how they handled the reboot.

Perhaps, but on the other hand, I think we were doomed to that sort of thing regardless. If they had covered more A-Wings, say, that would have been great for people who wanted to fly A-Wing swarms. On the other hand, people like me who only own a pair of A-Wings would have been stuck wondering why I'm paying for a lot of extra cardboard that only supports one particular list. Unless they broke it down into individual components (and therefore had an entire edition's worth of new products to have to put out, even before getting to new material), a sizable portion of the community was bound to find that the kits didn't fit their collections. Instead, FFG went with a balanced, generic conversion kit with at least two of every ship and a couple more for some.

I'd say people are justified in their disappointment that the kit doesn't match their collection, but I'd hesitate to say that a lot of the whining was justified, since much of the whining that I recall was, "Why didn't FFG tailor the kits to my collection?" or "Why didn't FFG implement <insert personally preferred solution> instead, even though there are at least as many faults with that solution, too?"

I don't think they should have been tailored - any moaning about that is just wild - but to put out only a single option to convert with means you only have one target for your issues. If there was a pure cardboard pack for individual ships - no upgrades, just pilot cards, base chits, and dials, then the issue of the conversion kit not covering enough would be moot. As it is, the only way someone who has been playing a long time can cover their collection is to spend an enormous amount of money to get far more than they need with most ships, to cover what they do need.

Take the A-wings you mention as an example. A lot of people who have played for a while have three. Same with B-wings. Both as a result of the aces pack. Three is that awkward number where you end up with leftover models you've paid for but can't use, but also have a hard time justifying a full conversion kit for a pair of ships. You now have a case of lost value no matter whether you buy or don't buy an extra conversion. That did impact the majority of people, and for many it was just too much of an ask.

5 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

I don't think they should have been tailored - any moaning about that is just wild - but to put out only a single option to convert with means you only have one target for your issues. If there was a pure cardboard pack for individual ships - no upgrades, just pilot cards, base chits, and dials, then the issue of the conversion kit not covering enough would be moot. As it is, the only way someone who has been playing a long time can cover their collection is to spend an enormous amount of money to get far more than they need with most ships, to cover what they do need.

Take the A-wings you mention as an example. A lot of people who have played for a while have three. Same with B-wings. Both as a result of the aces pack. Three is that awkward number where you end up with leftover models you've paid for but can't use, but also have a hard time justifying a full conversion kit for a pair of ships. You now have a case of lost value no matter whether you buy or don't buy an extra conversion. That did impact the majority of people, and for many it was just too much of an ask.

Individual cardboard for each ship is precisely what I was thinking of as one of the more flawed solutions.

For one thing, you now have an individual expansion for pretty much every single 1E expansion (minus Aces). That's doubling the amount of product before you even begin with the actual expansions!

Furthermore, what would be the cost? Could they go with separate packaging for each of these and keep them to less than, say, $5 on average? If not, you're spending more to convert fewer ships.

Some suggested making such packs online, but then you're missing out on people who browse and buy in-store. How many sales did FFG make from newer players because stores placed the conversion kits right next to significantly-discounted 1E product?

Again, I understand that it wasn't the optimal solution for everyone, but no solution is, and a lot of the whining was, "I'd rather the hardship fall on FFG or other players than on me."

My two brothers, my brother in law and I have all left the game at this point. Brothers started in wave 2, and me and brother in law started in wave 4. One brother and I have sold our collections, the other brother is disconnected with the community entirely and I’m not sure he even realizes it’s still a thing, and my brother in law is holding on just to play with his collection with his kids when they are older.

I still follow the game casually, as I actually find I enjoy discussions of games quite a bit, perhaps even more so than the playing of the game itself (I also follow magic closely with very little play).

A major reason we all fell out of the game is we all moved to different areas of the states and didn’t have each other to play with. My brother and brother in laws took a few waves off with the thought they may get back in, but the complexity with the introduction of conditions at that time and combo wing really taking off was enough to keep them out.

I stuck with the game the longest as I got entwined with the online community and was the most willing to go out and play at game stores. As the lone member of the group still playing with the 2.0 announcement, a second move and leaving a community which I felt very well included proved difficult to replicate, as I struggled to find my fit within a already well establish and large community. I simply saw no reason to invest in 2.0 when I didn’t feel valued within the community and I convinced myself if I ever got an itch, vassal or TTS could scratch the itch.

I’ve been thinking about buying back in and trying to get a new group of friends into the game with me, but similar to my brother and brother in law, I’m finding the new introduced mechanics since I left to be intimidating, and it’s likely I’ll just be a casual lurker from here on out.

Hard to say who are "friends" and who are "familiar faces from local events,"

But I will say this, limiting it to the question "Of those players who were playing 1.0 at the end, how may didn't transfer to 2.0?"

About 20% didn't convert

The more concerning question, though, is "Are people playing more or less X-Wing now?"

And the answer to that question seems to be "much less," as local events and game nights are less frequent and less attended, even if 80% of the locals have playing some 2.0 X-Wing.

People have been sluggish to convert, but launch weekend was during the middle of a hurricane, so prioritizies have been shifted for awhile. Wave 3 has brought new players, and hopefully they’ll still be down for a casual game after Clone Wars legion drops later this year. Going to be a fun summer though.

1 hour ago, JJ48 said:

Individual cardboard for each ship is precisely what I was thinking of as one of the more flawed solutions.

For one thing, you now have an individual expansion for pretty much every single 1E expansion (minus Aces). That's doubling the amount of product before you even begin with the actual expansions!

Furthermore, what would be the cost? Could they go with separate packaging for each of these and keep them to less than, say, $5 on average? If not, you're spending more to convert fewer ships.

Some suggested making such packs online, but then you're missing out on people who browse and buy in-store. How many sales did FFG make from newer players because stores placed the conversion kits right next to significantly-discounted 1E product?

Again, I understand that it wasn't the optimal solution for everyone, but no solution is, and a lot of the whining was, "I'd rather the hardship fall on FFG or other players than on me."

So when I say individual cardboard, I'm talking about just the generics and the basic bits for the ships. Enough to cover a pair of ships. Sure, that would require one for each ship, but who cares if it makes it easier for people to actually get back into the game? They also wouldn't be expansions, just subsets of the conversion kit.

I'm not expecting any of that to happen, I'm just voicing why so many locally have dropped off and stopped playing. Paying for a core and a conversion is one thing, but paying for a core and five or six conversions has been enough to not just put off a lot of people, but actively be the reason they quit.

I picked it up about a year ago, and found the learning curve very steep. 2.0 has been great for me, and I think its brought back some local players, as well as attracting new players.

I know of a couple folks who dropped out due to 2.0, but its been a net increase at our Wednesday night FLGS meeting.

17 hours ago, AceWing said:

None of my friends quit and we have a handful of new players. I agree that FFG botched the launch of 2.0 but I also think Hyperspace is pretty much everything that X-Wing needs for long-term success.

I think it is quite contrary. Majority of former players in my local playgroup hate the concept of Hyperspace format. It is miniatures game, not MtG clone with fake demand introduced by forced rotation. Also I can't imagine how anyone would want to play Empire where Vader or Soontir get rotated out.

Whole selling point of X-Wing 2.0 was its app and possibility of easier fixing balance on the fly. As it stands FFG introduced app but instantly tries to shove down new, terrible format down my throat. I wouldn't mind this if this abomination didn't influence another format and X-Wing community but as it stands Hyperspace is forced on bread'n'butter types of events in X-Wing, namely Regionals.

11 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

They also wouldn't be expansions, just subsets of the conversion kit.

From the player's perspective, we might draw that distinction. However, from the stores' perspective, or from FFG's, what's the difference? Either way, you have individual product codes and distinct packaging for each one.

14 minutes ago, NakedDex said:

Paying for a core and a conversion is one thing, but paying for a core and five or six conversions has been enough to not just put off a lot of people, but actively be the reason they quit.

For some people, sure. However, from many of the responses in this thread, as well as from some people I know in real life, I think the conversion kits were responsible for fewer players leaving than people tend to claim. Some people decided to leave well before we knew anything about the details of the conversion kits, and were clearly just looking for an excuse to get out. Others took the Darth Meanie approach of not converting, but also buying in on new product. Still others decided to just focus on one faction, or even shrugged their shoulders and bought in anyway.

Maybe in your local group, the conversion kits were the primary reason for quitting, but that's just not what I'm getting from the community as a whole.

4 hours ago, JJ48 said:

Perhaps, but on the other hand, I think we were doomed to that sort of thing regardless. If they had covered more A-Wings, say, that would have been great for people who wanted to fly A-Wing swarms. On the other hand, people like me who only own a pair of A-Wings would have been stuck wondering why I'm paying for a lot of extra cardboard that only supports one particular list.

You're still sticking with this silliness? You know you're wrong about this.

If FFG had made every upgrade an actual upgrade, people could have bought, sold, and traded individual ship upgrades, to match their collections or to recoup losses. Or both.

FFG f#$%ed up the Conversion Kits, and it really hurt the player-base. I think the game -- which is a much better game -- is recovering, but it didn't have to take the massive hit it took.