Reading the narrative description of Padawan Survivor (Dawn of Rebellion) it really matches with a character already Force Sensitive (to be more precise: a former member of the Jedi Order), becoming a runaway following the issuance of Order 66.

However, for me, the mechanics seems to be contradicting with this. The specialization gives you FR1 (if your FR is 0) at the expense of not giving any career skills. As an universal specialization, it can not be the starting specialization of a character, only to be taken later. In this system, the vast majority of Force Sensitive characters would have a FaD career, along with specializations from FaD. Since Force Sensitives already have at least FR1, if I take Padawan Survivor as a Force Sensitive, I can not benefit from the Force Rating it gives (and of course getting no career skills). So it seems for me that only non-sensitives can mechanically benefit from this specialization, although the narrative contents does not really make sense for those characters, or at least it is rather difficult to explain why it would make sense. For Force Sensitive Exile & Emergent, one can explain that the character is discovering his/her Force Sensitive nature when taking the specialization, but this is not the case for Padawan Survivor, which (at least narratively) assumes that the character is already Force Sensitive before taking the specialization.

As playing exactly a former Padawan after Order 66, this specialization fits my character perfectly from narrative point of view. However from mechanics point of view, can not make use of its benefits, while non-sensitives can benefit a lot. Is it intentional that the specialization is made like this, basically exclusively for non-sensitives? Wouldn't it make more sense to have career skills like many other specializations (Stealth, Deception, Survival, Vigilance, Streetwise or whatever it suits the most)?

Yes it's pretty much made for non-Sensitives, as another way for them to buy into access to the Force, just like Exile and Emergent. There isn't anything stopping you from buying it however as is, even if you don't get the FR 1 out of it. Since you already have FR 1, you haven't lost anything, you just already have FR 1. It still gives you access to all those talents, which is a lot of stuff. This isn't a new problem (though I don't really think it's a problem), when F&D came out, people brought up this same issue in regards to buying into Exile and Emergent. And yes, while the "You get a Force Rating of 1" is redundant since you already have FR 1, you still gain access to a large list of talents that can be very very useful.

Thematically, I think it's supposed to be basically a specialization to reflect Kanan Jarrus, in that he was a Padawan, stopped doing Force stuff for years because he didn't really finish his training, and it was also a death sentence, and then started doing it again due to reasons. Buying into that specialization represents them actively using their powers and talents again, after years of suppressing them. The Force Exile/Emergent aren't necessarily meant to be people who were Padawans previously, but just, people with access to the Force. Whereas Padawan Survivor is specifically meant to represent someone who actually got JEDI training, but didn't become a full Jedi, and then due to O66, had to hide that part of their life for years.

On this tree I been thinking of making it a cheaper tree to get IF you have a FR already as the other idea of adding skills dose not work as the main skills I whoud add are already in the tree

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I think the Padawan Survivor is aimed more at EoE and AoR careers. The F&D careers seem more like people who are currently Jedi, presumably in training by a Jedi who survived Order 66. The Padawan Survivor feels like someone who was a Padawan at the time, escaped the purge and has since been in hiding - a character like that probably has a career from EoE or AoR.

However, if you do take it as a spec for a F&D career, I think the benefits of the Secrets Of The Jedi talents will make up for the lack of additional career skills.

4 hours ago, Dafydd said:

I think the Padawan Survivor is aimed more at EoE and AoR careers. The F&D careers seem more like people who are currently Jedi, presumably in training by a Jedi who survived Order 66. The Padawan Survivor feels like someone who was a Padawan at the time, escaped the purge and has since been in hiding - a character like that probably has a career from EoE or AoR.

However, if you do take it as a spec for a F&D career, I think the benefits of the Secrets Of The Jedi talents will make up for the lack of additional career skills.

Not to be terribly contrary, but the base assumption of F&D is that the characters created with it are not Jedi, only potentially influenced by their teachings.

Of course, there’s no reason why you can’t use those careers to represent Jedi, depending on your game, but F&D states that they aren’t supposed to represent actual Jedi. The Padawan Survivor universal talent tree does.

Given the amount of universal trees added to the game through supplements (and with more coming), I’d probably give every player the choice of one for free at character creation, in addition to their career spec, because most of them better represent backgrounds than additional training/experience one would gain through adventure and life experience.

2 hours ago, AnomalousAuthor said:

Not to be terribly contrary, but the base assumption of F&D is that the characters created with it are not Jedi, only potentially influenced by their teachings.

Of course, there’s no reason why you can’t use those careers to represent Jedi, depending on your game, but F&D states that they aren’t supposed to represent actual Jedi. The Padawan Survivor universal talent tree does.

Given the amount of universal trees added to the game through supplements (and with more coming), I’d probably give every player the choice of one for free at character creation, in addition to their career spec, because most of them better represent backgrounds than additional training/experience one would gain through adventure and life experience.

You could also allow universal specs as starting specs in any career, meaning you could start out as smuggler/ship captain or a soldier/clone wars veteran.

The force specs are a bit dicey as they dont provide any skill list to pick starting skills from though. So that would have to be figured out.

21 minutes ago, penpenpen said:

You could also allow universal specs as starting specs in any career, meaning you could start out as smuggler/ship captain or a soldier/clone wars veteran.

The force specs are a bit dicey as they dont provide any skill list to pick starting skills from though. So that would have to be figured out.

Very true.

And, to rectify that issue with the force specs, all you’d need to do is come up with an appropriate skill list for those, which isn’t all that daunting of a task anyhow.

15 hours ago, AnomalousAuthor said:

Very true.

And, to rectify that issue with the force specs, all you’d need to do is come up with an appropriate skill list for those, which isn’t all that daunting of a task anyhow.

The drawback of that is the force specs have skills in the tree one idea i had is if the character already has force point then make the tree 5 or 10 exp cheeper or give free exp that must be spent in the tree

On 4/5/2019 at 10:24 AM, Oldmike1 said:

On this tree I been thinking of making it a cheaper tree to get IF you have a FR already as the other idea of adding skills dose not work as the main skills I whoud add are already in the tree

Broadly speaking, if you're looking at a game change from the standpoint of "this change benefits me more than that one" you're putting game balance behind personal benefit.

My first thought is that if you want that story background instead of taking Padawan Survivor as a second Spec, it would be best to use it as your starting Spec. Others can probably give much better lists of skills, but this is my guess at what a Padawn would be expected to focus on: Discipline, Negotiation, Perception, Vigilance. A credible argument could be made for dropping Negotiation in favor of "choose one based on your Master's background".

If I remember correctly doesn't the talent tree for padawan survivor include talents for making knowledge lore checks?

8 hours ago, Pyremius said:

Broadly speaking, if you're looking at a game change from the standpoint of "this change benefits me more than that one" you're putting game balance behind personal benefit.

My first thought is that if you want that story background instead of taking Padawan Survivor as a second Spec, it would be best to use it as your starting Spec. Others can probably give much better lists of skills, but this is my guess at what a Padawn would be expected to focus on: Discipline, Negotiation, Perception, Vigilance. A credible argument could be made for dropping Negotiation in favor of "choose one based on your Master's background".

I as a player am unlikely to take it as it dose not fit the only force user I play. what I talking about is a way to make it more attractive to others as now I can’t see a reason for anyone to take it

17 hours ago, Pyremius said:

Broadly speaking, if you're looking at a game change from the standpoint of "this change benefits me more than that one" you're putting game balance behind personal benefit.

My first thought is that if you want that story background instead of taking Padawan Survivor as a second Spec, it would be best to use it as your starting Spec. Others can probably give much better lists of skills, but this is my guess at what a Padawn would be expected to focus on: Discipline, Negotiation, Perception, Vigilance. A credible argument could be made for dropping Negotiation in favor of "choose one based on your Master's background".

By RAW, you can't take a Universal specialization as your starting spec. What you can do, however, is buy it as a second spec during character creation. The down side of this is you'll have fewer XP for Attributes.

7 minutes ago, Tramp Graphics said:

By RAW, you can't take a Universal specialization as your starting spec. What you can do, however, is buy it as a second spec during character creation. The down side of this is you'll have fewer XP for Attributes.

I would allow a player to take a universal specialisation for the extra morality/obligation/duty.

16 minutes ago, MrTInce said:

I would allow a player to take a universal specialisation for the extra morality/obligation/duty.

That's fine for a house rule . I'm simply saying that it's not RAW .

https://www.mediafire.com/file/teo2f5yrb808ft2/EliasWindriderSequelEra1500xpC.pdf/file

Padawan survivor is a great spec that gives a few game mechanical reasons to max out lore. I have a 1500xp character that is a warrior:steelhand adept/niman disciple/padawan survivor/sentry and I'm loving the build. Game mechanically it's highly effective. It also perfectly fits the narrative theme of the character. Original motivations for taking padawan survivor include (but are not limited to) getting gaa 5 xp constant vigilance and a tricked out lightsaber, but I love being able to pull of difficult lore checks with ease. E.g. GM to know the significance of a gand referring to himself by name rather than "I" or "gand" you'll have to make a hard knowledge lore check.

I now start games with 20 xp after character creation. This allows starting with a Universal spec to help meet a character concept that relies upon it.

On 4/5/2019 at 10:28 PM, AnomalousAuthor said:

Not to be terribly contrary, but the base assumption of F&D is that the characters created with it are not Jedi, only potentially influenced by their teachings.

That's not true. The very core book suggests playing as a former Jedi who has become a hermit as character concept in the character creation section.

52 minutes ago, Stan Fresh said:

That's not true. The very core book suggests playing as a former Jedi who has become a hermit as character concept in the character creation section.

I think that "are predominantly not jedi" would be the baseline assumption, it's not an all or nothing statement but a mostly statement

18 hours ago, Darzil said:

I now start games with 20 xp after character creation. This allows starting with a Universal spec to help meet a character concept that relies upon it.

Myself and a few other GMs in my area have been doing something similar, to the tune of granting PCs an extra 25XP and 1000 additional credits to help flesh out character concepts. It's worked out pretty well as characters feel a little more realized (especially the F&D ones) and aren't completely strapped for cash. Thus far I don't think anyone's used the bonus XP in the games I've been in to purchase a universal spec right at the early going, but then anyone that's wanted to play a Force user (ex-Jedi or otherwise) just picked a F&D career and used the extra XP to acquire Force powers (especially if the group took the Mentor resource).

7 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Myself and a few other GMs in my area have been doing something similar, to the tune of granting PCs an extra 25XP and 1000 additional credits to help flesh out character concepts. It's worked out pretty well as characters feel a little more realized (especially the F&D ones) and aren't completely strapped for cash. Thus far I don't think anyone's used the bonus XP in the games I've been in to purchase a universal spec right at the early going, but then anyone that's wanted to play a Force user (ex-Jedi or otherwise) just picked a F&D career and used the extra XP to acquire Force powers (especially if the group took the Mentor resource).

Do you allow the bonus XP to be used for characteristics?

6 hours ago, EliasWindrider said:

I think that "are predominantly not jedi" would be the baseline assumption, it's not an all or nothing statement but a mostly statement

Yeah, the book kinda goes a bit back and forth on this. AnomalousAuthor's not wrong in that the general notion is that the majority of the PCs aren't full-fledged Jedi, especially as by the time of the default setting there isn't a Jedi Order. Even more so if you equate the term Jedi with being a Jedi Knight as opposed to just being a member, active or former, of the Jedi Order.

But, much like some of the old WEG character templates, you can play a PC that has links to the Jedi Order, such as the Failed Jedi and the Minor Jedi. Granted, such PCs are more likely to have been Padawans (or even very lucky Initiates/younglings) that only had minimal training in the Force, or were simply trained by one of the survivors of Order 66, thus connecting them to the now-defunct Jedi Order.

Of course, using a lightsaber and having Force powers doesn't automatically make one a Jedi. Asajj Ventress and Darth Maul were both very capable Force users and lightsaber combatants, but they'd scoff (if not kill you outright) for insinuating that they were Jedi. And with the Force Outcast universal spec in Rise of the Separatists, it's even more likely to have a saber-wielding Force user that never received any measure of training from the Jedi.

1 minute ago, MrTInce said:

Do you allow the bonus XP to be used for characteristics?

Nope, it's treated much the same as the XP granted by Knight Level.

2 minutes ago, Donovan Morningfire said:

Nope, it's treated much the same as the XP granted by Knight Level.

Thought as much. My current campaign will be coming to an end soon so I am looking at ways to have the fully realised characters from the get go with seeming to powerful.