8 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I agree that MF isn't that great on the Hyenas, but it could save those charges to avoid a Reload. If you do blank out and again with the TL, it can save those charges.

Also won't always be double moded.

True, but I think it's important to remember the target won't always have tokens. In fact, most of time I just lob the boron at whoever is tokenless (either block or spent on offense/defense) using the Bak pilot ability and it pretty much always hits.

You should always strive to be double modded when working with ordnance!

Honestly, the biggest issue with failsafe is you REALLY don't want to invest any more than necessary on relatively fragile hyenas and ridiculously fragile Vultures

Struts give you a unique positioning advantage that compensates for a rather stiff dial. They're oftentimes the only thing keeping your hyena from popping like bubble wrap, thanks to awkward positioning for your opponent. I'd say struts are almost essential for the Hyena (overall) to be any good

(Exceptions being guys you don't expect will live long anyway, so basically cheapo TuBs and 404)

Failsafe...?

7 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

And ofc, struts don't do diddly to gas clouds

Just a little weird edge case that I have worked out. It is possible to land on a rock/debris and barrel roll on to a gas cloud. Requires some careful set-up but if your opponent brings gas clouds, it would be extremely sweet to fire through them with no effect and then get the extra green and autothrusters on all return fire. Worth it? Probably not but it is some next-level shenanigans if you can pull it off.

11 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

True, but I think it's important to remember the target won't always have tokens. In fact, most of time I just lob the boron at whoever is tokenless (either block or spent on offense/defense) using the Bak pilot ability and it pretty much always hits.

Now that I think about it, I would rather spend 3 points and upgrade the Plasma Torpedo to Proton.

10 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

You should always strive to be double modded when working with ordnance!

Honestly, the biggest issue with failsafe is you REALLY don't want to invest any more than necessary on relatively fragile hyenas and ridiculously fragile Vultures

Struts give you a unique positioning advantage that compensates for a rather stiff dial. They're oftentimes the only thing keeping your hyena from popping like bubble wrap, thanks to awkward positioning for your opponent. I'd say struts are almost essential for the Hyena (overall) to be any good

(Exceptions being guys you don't expect will live long anyway, so basically cheapo TuBs and 404)

Failsafe...?

We were talking about the Grapplers on the Vultures. I dropped them.

You make it sound as if Hyenas are incapable of flying without careening off of asteroids. I would think after 7 years of flying I might have some skill.

Overall, though, if you find yourself with a spare point or two, I don't think Munitions Failsafe is a bad option. It's one point. It can save you using a charge, and if you are using something with low charges, like Torpedoes or Diamond Boron Missiles, then blanking out might not be so bad. Sure, you have a White Reload, but that takes a turn of no action.

1 hour ago, heychadwick said:

Now that I think about it, I would rather  spend 3 points and upgrade the Plasma Torpedo to Proton.

It's 4. And...meh, I just use the Plasmas as a shield breaker and in that respect, they're doing basically the same damage as Protons (actually better average because the +1 is automatic). And again, I do think struts ups your mid game (but not because I think the dial is bad, more because it allows you a lot of flexibility to use part of the table the other player can't)

30 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

It's 4. And...meh, I just use the Plasmas as a shield breaker and in that respect, they're doing basically the same damage as Protons (actually better average because the +1 is automatic). And again, I do think struts ups your mid game (but not because I think the dial is bad, more because it allows you a lot of flexibility to use part of the table the other player can't)

I like the Struts / Grapplers for a couple that will give support. I will give them to all Hyenas as I think sitting on a rock and lobbing ordnance is exactly what the Bombers are for. I'm just not sold on every Hyena.

Plasma Torpedoes are only 3 red dice and only do the extra shield damage if they hit. If it is your opening shot and it's against something like an ace or a Force User, you might need the extra die to hit. I also think the Proton Torpedo is good to clear out any tokens or Iden Versio type abilities that might come into play. Also, many ships don't have Shields and the Plasma is wasted on them.

Protons, while expensive, ensure your first punch really is strong. You even have the chance of taking out a swarm ship with just the Torpedo shot. I have found I like my alpha shot to really pack a punch and I don't mind sacrificing Grapplers on the Vultures to make it happen. I see more use in the Proton than Vulture Grapplers.

GRAPPLING HYENAS

TUB with Proton Torp, Probe Droid, and Struts

Baktoid with Diamond-Boron and Struts

5 x Trade Fed with ESC

200 pts

4 hours ago, heychadwick said:

You make it sound as if Hyenas are incapable of flying without careening off of asteroids. I would think after 7 years of flying I might have some skill.

Networked and struts MAKE the Hyena what it is, as opposed to a really **** TIE bomber who traded most of its banks for blue 2 turns

Now being a **** TIE bomber is fine if you're just a cheap, expendible ESC but otherwise it's an invaluable investment

And ofc it's not like a swarm of 6/7 struts will all perch on a rock in the same game but having the option to opens up your dial and playstyle options to a pretty great degree.

3 hours ago, heychadwick said:

I like the Struts / Grapplers for a couple that will give support. I will give them to all Hyenas as I think sitting on a rock and lobbing ordnance is exactly what the Bombers are for. I'm just not sold on every Hyena.

Plasma Torpedoes are only 3 red dice and only do the extra shield damage if they hit. If it is your opening shot and it's against something like an ace or a Force User, you might need the extra die to hit. I also think the Proton Torpedo is good to clear out any tokens or Iden Versio type abilities that might come into play. Also, many ships don't have Shields and the Plasma is wasted on them.

Protons, while expensive, ensure your first punch really is strong. You even have the chance of taking out a swarm ship with just the Torpedo shot. I have found I like my alpha shot to really pack a punch and I don't mind sacrificing Grapplers on the Vultures to make it happen. I see more use in the Proton than Vulture Grapplers.

GRAPPLING HYENAS

TUB with Proton Torp, Probe Droid, and Struts

Baktoid with Diamond-Boron and Struts

5 x Trade Fed with ESC

200 pts

I get where you're coming from, but my experience is that the early game is where your missiles and mods dominate and if you're opponent is going to come back, it'll be in the mid game where having lots of options to use and abuse struts come up. So I guess my mentality is, "I'm already winning the joust, so points spent there are less valuable and generally better invested in a strong mid-game advantage"

45 minutes ago, ficklegreendice said:

Networked and struts MAKE the Hyena what it is, as opposed to a really **** TIE bomber who traded most of its banks for blue 2 turns

Now being a **** TIE bomber is fine if you're just a cheap, expendible ESC but otherwise it's an invaluable investment

And ofc it's not like a swarm of 6/7 struts will all perch on a rock in the same game but having the option to opens up your dial and playstyle options to a pretty great degree.

So, I feel you're doing something wrong. Like, you don't pay points for an interceptor then complain that it can't 1 straight to victory and you don't bring a shuttle and complain it can't arc dodge.

Don't try to shove the dial into your tactics, adjust your tactics for the dial.

11 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

Don't try to shove the dial into your tactics, adjust your tactics for the dial.

And struts

Ships have strengths and weaknesses, that's just good game design. The Hyenas horrible selection of banks is a weakness. Blue turns and one-point struts are strength (plus networked and probes etcetcetc)

Pointing out that the dial isn't great is not a complaint, it's just stating a fact.

Just now, ficklegreendice said:

And struts

Ships have strengths and weaknesses, that's just good game design. The Hyenas horrible selection of banks is a weakness. Blue turns and one-point struts are strength

Pointing out that the dial isn't great is not a complaint, it's just stating a fact.

The problem is that, it's objectively a good dial. All 3 turn options including a blue hard 2, 2-3 blue straight with 1 and 4 white straights and you still have a white 2 bank. The only reds other than turnarounds (of which you have 3 options) are your 5 straight and 1 bank. How is this dial "bad" by any stretch of the imagination? You have a lot of options, a good links repo to buff the dial and you can hard 2 to clear stress. Maybe it's Stockholm syndrome from playing droids so much, but 100% fine with the available options on the Vulture and Hyena dial to keep up with, or outright outmaneuver anything I come across.

"isn't great" != not

and, again, only having white 2-banks isn't great. You're missing out on a LOT of flexibility that even the Arc enjoys!

You can't even slow roll on those awful red 1-banks, which is something I miss dearly from the lovely TIE bomber

To counteract this, struts!

BEHOLD! The slowest rolling possible!

I've found that being able to bank is HUGE for navigating dense clusters of obstacles. Hyenas only really have the two-bank. Therefore, struts are a godsend

2 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

"isn't great" != not

and, again, only having white 2-banks isn't great. You're missing out on a LOT of flexibility that even the Arc enjoys!

You can't even slow roll on those awful red 1-banks, which is something I miss dearly from the lovely TIE bomber

To counteract this, struts!

BEHOLD! The slowest rolling possible!

I've found that being able to bank is HUGE for navigating dense clusters of obstacles. Hyenas only really have the two-bank. Therefore, struts are a godsend

WHY ARE YOU RUNNING FORWARD IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BOARD TO JOUST!!!!!

I think your droids are having an operator error problem...

EDIT: Sorry, trying to be as non-confrontational as possible *shut up, I am*, there is no maneuver you could put on the dial that would salvage the joust from the first pic. You need to be a lot more selective about where and when you pick fights and put a lot of work into controlling engagement speed and distances.

1. "Ignore Rocks" is certainly an overstatement of what Struts allow Hyenas and Vultures to do.

2. It's still decent short-hand for the flexibility granted by Struts for plotting moves to avoid being f***ed over by rocks in ways that most ships could only dream of.

22 hours ago, Vector Strike said:

Hyenas on obstacles have white Reload, so even less reason to give them MF

In what way do you get a White Reload? Being landed on an obstacle essentially gives you a Blue 0-Stall, so you'll clear the stress, but you don't have a White Reload.

All the stuff that Landing Struts does happens after Step #1, skips Step #2, and goes on to Step #3 after removing the stress and doing the rotation.

Quote

1. Reveal Dial: The ship’s assigned dial is Revealed by flipping it faceup and then placing it next to its ship card.

2. Execute Maneuver: The ship executes the maneuver selected on the revealed dial.

3. Perform Action: The ship may perform one action.

47 minutes ago, theBitterFig said:

In what way do you get a White Reload? Being landed on an obstacle essentially gives you a Blue 0-Stall, so you'll clear the stress, but you don't have a White Reload.

All the stuff that Landing Struts does happens after Step #1, skips Step #2, and goes on to Step #3 after removing the stress and doing the rotation.

It's a shorthand because you always clear a stress on the rock, so it's "kind of" like it's white, but not really

3 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

WHY ARE YOU RUNNING FORWARD IN THE MIDDLE OF THE BOARD TO JOUST!!!!!

I think your droids are having an operator error problem...

EDIT: Sorry, trying to be as non-confrontational as possible *shut up, I am*, there is no maneuver you could put on the dial that would salvage the joust from the first pic. You need to be a lot more selective about where and when you pick fights and put a lot of work into controlling engagement speed and distances.

What joust? It's two vultures and 404, leaving maul and the baktoid completely unassailable thanks to the middle rock and Torrents' dial

It was a game I won handily

The only operator error here seems to be coming from the backseat driver

9 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

I get where you're coming from, but my experience is that the early game is where your missiles and mods dominate and if you're opponent is going to come back, it'll be in the mid game where having lots of options to use and abuse struts come up. So I guess my mentality is, "I'm already winning the joust, so points spent there are less valuable and generally better invested in a strong mid-game advantage"

I get what you are saying, too. I agree that the beginning is when the Droids are most effective. That's why I went to improve the alpha strike. I guess either option is valid. I prefer to make that dual moded alpha strike be a 4 red dice event.

10 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

Networked and struts MAKE the Hyena what it is, as opposed to a really **** TIE bomber who traded most of its banks for blue 2 turns

Yes, but nobody was saying we should use Hyenas without Struts.

4 hours ago, ficklegreendice said:

What joust? It's two vultures and 404, leaving maul and the baktoid completely unassailable thanks to the middle rock and Torrents' dial

It was a game I won handily

The only operator error here seems to be coming from the backseat driver

We'll agree to disagree, I'm fine trading banks for hard 2 blues and good linked actions and playing droids swarms since faction release I barely notice the bank limitations, but maybe with time you'll see through the lies of the Jedi i.e. bank maneuvers as well

Anyways, we've had some questions in here about Probe Droids, so let's use a visual aid. Here, the droid dropping the probe did a 2 K out of the deployment zone:

Then the Probe Droid moved, doing a SPD 2 bank

Everything in the enemy list is currently lockble (And the droid hard 2ed to join it's buddies). This is with the far right element doing a SPD 2 turn 1, and they're so far in range that a SPD 1 wouldn't have stopped it. Note, the 2 K and the banks actually cover the most distance if you're wondering.

This game was also a good example (although I just took pics of the probe droids to visualize) of kind of why this squad is a little bananas because the first round of the fighting actually had a hard RNG swing for him (killed a vulture at R3 because it triple blanked, would've been fine with any paint), but the Diamond boron found a good hit on the K's and a shell hit one of them. Then on the second round of the joust he had even more high dice (a bumping Teroch hard rolled 4 hits and the vulture double blanked) and 1 of the K-Fighters double evaded twice in a row. And, even with no real dice swings in my favor (I spent a lot of locks and calculates just to get anything), the list won hard (2 dead vultures and half points on the Hyenas while getting tabled). This was also with a positional error on the Plasma TUB on my part and having to plan around potentially being pulled off the rocks by the tugs and forcing me to actually execute the maneuver on my dial.

The big swing was all the struts in the mid game. The only reason the Bak Proto survived was struts and I landed a vulture on the middle rock on the second round of the joust and he stayed there all game getting modded shots and taking calculates that could be used by nearby ships even while bumping or K-Turning.

Also played against a sinker swarm. Round 1 of that joust, I traded a Vulture for an ARC and a Torrent (didn't bother going after sinker because he was on the other side of the formation, so I went with what I could kill). The Diamond Boron also netted 5 damage that game (2 on the direct and 3 splash) on just the opening joust and the Plasma hammered all of the arc shields in 1 shot and also got 1 onto hull. In this game he didn't have major dice swings like the first opponent and the Torretns just collapsed. They had no answer to strutted droids and the droids not on rocks could throw up blocks.

The action economy on that list is just dumb. Droids naturally in action economy when you get a lot in one place because of networked calculations, but the Hyenas can spend their calculates on defense pretty casually because they don't need them to fire ordinance and the locks also help the energy shells in weird ways for example, if you reroll your focus results, it may seem greedy, but you only have a 25% chance of a re-rolled focus getting worse (a blank) a 25% of it staying the same (another focus) and a 50% of upgrading it to a better result (hit or crit), so if you are a little short on calculates, you can just spend locks and if it's still a focus result, spend the token with only a 1 in 4 of it really resulting in a worse outcome (and if you have triple focus or some nonsense, the lock is just better than trying to calculate the 1-2 results you can actually turn). In other words, the Hyenas up the economy of the list the frankly ridiculous degree where even a list passively rerolling with focuses and a lot of HP couldn't match it.

I'm having to mull this around because even through a few mistakes it doesn't seem to matter. RAC just melted (okay, he took a lot of missiles, but that was half his list and, again, the aces couldn't match the strut droids in the mid-game), Ketsu still took 4 damage from 3 attacks despite perfect defense rolls and a 9 HP ARC-170 was killed in 3 shots. The skill floor on this seems pretty low, but the ceiling with this level of damage and options has to be pretty high up there.

Has anyone put any significant time in with something like this? I think it could have some legs but I haven't gotten it on the board much.

DBS-404 (30)
Plasma Torpedoes (9)
DRK-1 Probe Droids (5)
Landing Struts (1)

Ship total: 45 Half Points: 23 Threshold: 3

General Grievous (44)
TA-175 (5)
Soulless One (6)

Ship total: 55 Half Points: 28 Threshold: 4

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Energy-Shell Charges (5)
Grappling Struts (1)

Ship total: 25 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Energy-Shell Charges (5)
Grappling Struts (1)

Ship total: 25 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Energy-Shell Charges (5)
Grappling Struts (1)

Ship total: 25 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2

Trade Federation Drone (19)
Energy-Shell Charges (5)
Grappling Struts (1)

Ship total: 25 Half Points: 13 Threshold: 2


Total: 200

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Separatist Alliance&d=v8ZsZ200Z326X234WW221WW237Y305XW239WW229Y279X209W208WY279X209W208WY279X209W208WY279X209W208W&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

8 hours ago, MasterShake2 said:

Anyways, we've had some questions in here about Probe Droids, so let's use a visual aid. Here, the droid dropping the probe did a 2 K out of the deployment zone:

I do thank you for this, but I don't understand how the Probe survived the next turn. The Scum ships could've easily banked towards it and blasted it to pieces. It's what I would've done. The Droids were not in a position to support it or to punish the enemy if they went for the Probe. That's what I need to learn how to do (deploy the Probe so that it is useful, but not a target).

7 hours ago, dsul413 said:

Has anyone put any significant time in with something like this? I think it could have some legs but I haven't gotten it on the board much.

I have not, but only with a Probe Droid will I try Init 1 Trade Droids. I haven't used the Probe yet, but am going to try it out soon.

===

Our gaming group has been play testing scenarios for GenCon and also trying out Flight Group Alpha (Imperial HotAC) and I haven't had a chance to fly my Hyenas yet! I am hoping tonight, but I also kind of hope FGA.

10 minutes ago, heychadwick said:

I do thank you for this, but I don't understand how the Probe survived the next turn. The Scum ships could've easily banked towards it and blasted it to pieces. It's what I would've done. The Droids were not in a position to support it or to punish the enemy if they went for the Probe. That's what I need to learn how to do (deploy the Probe so that it is useful, but not a target).

I have not, but only with a Probe Droid will I try Init 1 Trade Droids. I haven't used the Probe yet, but am going to try it out soon.

===

Our gaming group has been play testing scenarios for GenCon and also trying out Flight Group Alpha (Imperial HotAC) and I haven't had a chance to fly my Hyenas yet! I am hoping tonight, but I also kind of hope FGA.

It doesn't have to survive at all. It moves at the end phase, then the device phase, then you get your locks during the activation phase and you're good to go. They can certainly shoot it at that point, but who cares.

9 minutes ago, MasterShake2 said:

It doesn't have to survive at all. It moves at the end phase, then the device phase, then you get your locks during the activation phase and you're good to go. They can certainly shoot it at that point, but who cares.

Ahhh....I see now. Thanks!

Not competitive, not optimal, not sane, the name says it all.

Embracing the Variance (200/200) ==============================

Hyena Bomber: DBS-404 (30 + 6) + Adv. Proton Torpedoes (6)

Belbullab-22: Captain Sear (39 + 11) + TA-175 (5) + Soulless One (6)

Vulture Fighter: Trade Federation Drone (19)

Vulture Fighter: Trade Federation Drone (19)

Vulture Fighter: Trade Federation Drone (19)

Vulture Fighter: Trade Federation Drone (19)

Vulture Fighter: Trade Federation Drone (19)

Vulture Fighter: Trade Federation Drone (19)

10 hours ago, heychadwick said:

Ahhh....I see now. Thanks!

You have to embrace the Seperatist mindset

Everything is expendible!

Except for you (or so you think)

EDIT: by the way, I think we should revisit the subject of i 1 or 3 especially with our lovely little 'yenas

So the boron baktoid is in a good spot because it's so cheap, but what about its relative equivalents in the torpedo bearing bombers?

Boron Baktoid (35 w/struts)

Tub plasma (36 w/struts)

Sep Plasma (39 w/struts)

Tub Protons (40 w/struts)

Sep Proton (43 w/struts)

and ofc, 404 can be taken over a Sep for one measly point.

So...? How often you guys running into republic arcs and torrents ?