1 hour ago, SpiderMana said:

Eesh you guys really underestimate Vultures. I'll admit there are several fairly meta builds that would probably tear them apart, but those are overpowered against most things, so that shouldn't be the measuring stick.

Idk, it can be tiring sure, but you guys are making me want to fly 8 again tomorrow (Hyperspace Trial) just to prove that they don't need Maul 😂

It's not like I won't run them. They're still a lot of fun and can be competitive, but I'm not ignoring the current flaws with the current points. The problem is on a high competitive level when you look around at other swarm type lists that are designed to bring lots of arcs with efficient/well modded shots, it's hard to not take TIE Swarm, 5 RZ2 AWings, or even Sinker Swarms over Vultures. I personally don't fly the TIE Swarm because I don't want to fly my whole swarm in a tight formation which is why I prefer 5As, Sinker and Separatists. As @Caduceus01 said, they're hurt by correctly flow ace flankers and get outjousted by too many things. Even the meta Rebel lists now aren't easy to handle (normally they should be at 4 ships), but they're shots are potentially so efficient that the normal 1.5 Vultures lost leans closer to 2 in that matchup and it's really bad when that happens.

I had assumed that's what it was when they did the original reveal but after seeing the art (and slots) for electro proton bomb it's clear that this is a different card

You can see in the art that the BTL-A4 Y-Wing is shooting its turret at the missile and it's bouncing off - it seems to be a Diamond boron missile?

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Diamond_boron_missile

3 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

I had assumed that's what it was when they did the original reveal but after seeing the art (and slots) for electro proton bomb it's clear that this is a different card

You can see in the art that the BTL-A4 Y-Wing is shooting its turret at the missile and it's bouncing off - it seems to be a Diamond boron missile?

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Diamond_boron_missile

So....a super Assault Missile??? Seems interesting.

EDITED: Also, how the in **** did you look this up and find it? That seems to be spot on from the art and image along with what it's at least based around, if not also named.

6 minutes ago, RStan said:

EDITED: Also, how the in **** did you look this up and find it? That seems to be spot on from the art and image along with what it's at least based around, if not also named.

I remembered it from Shadows of the Empire (A squadron of Bothans in Y-Wings get killed by one after Dash Rendar tries to shoot it down and fails. This is the back story for the "many Bothans died to bring us this information" line. Shadows of the Empire is sooo dumb.) The art depicts that scenario.

8 minutes ago, Transmogrifier said:

I remembered it from Shadows of the Empire (A squadron of Bothans in Y-Wings get killed by one after Dash Rendar tries to shoot it down and fails. This is the back story for the "many Bothans died to bring us this information" line. Shadows of the Empire is sooo dumb.) The art depicts that scenario.

I was wondering what the **** the far right ship in the background of the image was. YT-2400 fits the profile. Diamond Boron missiles though?!?! Shiiiiit…

So what should I expect from a Diamond Boron Missile?

Sounds like it won't be faction-locked, if the Empire was using it.

9 minutes ago, svelok said:

So what should I expect from a Diamond Boron Missile?

Sounds like it won't be faction-locked, if the Empire was using it.

At best if they're trying to be accurate of the capability? If it hits, every ship range 0-1 of the target rolls 2-3 dice and suffers the result +1 hit. Probably a range 2-3 \/ or || ordinance attack. Worst case it'll be able to be reloaded (they were the size of concussion missiles) though that might only apply to Huge ships and Large or smaller only get 1 shot. It was also "expensive" so could very likely (and hopefully) be a 1 pip upgrade.

What would you pay for the following tactical relays?

These aren't necessarily cards I want to exist, think are balanced, or believe would be good game design. Just things that I think spark interesting thoughts on game mechanics or on flying Vultures.

• When a friendly ship at range 0-3 is destroyed, it is not removed until the end phase.
• At the start of combat, each friendly calculating ship may transfer one if its calculate tokens to another friendly ship at range 0-1.
• Friendly Separatist Drones gain a Talent slot.

1 hour ago, svelok said:

When  a frie  ndly ship at range 0-3 is destroyed, it is not removed until the end phase  . 

Maybe try r1-3, non-Vultures don’t need that 😜

1 hour ago, svelok said:

When a friendly ship at range 0-3 is destroyed, it is not removed until the end phase.

I'm hesitant to allow this into the game. I've played a bit of Armada, and General Riekaan (?) has an ability that's quite similar and is somewhat meta-warping. Now, X-Wing is a different game, but this could go really bad. I'd limit it to 1 ship a turn.

15 minutes ago, SpiderMana said:

Maybe try r1-3, non-Vultures don’t need that 😜

Maybe any friendly Calculating ship from range 0-3 (or other ranges).

Out of the 3 choices, I like this one the best.

Actually, I like the 2nd one as well.

Maybe limit it some but yeah it’s a fun design space.

2 hours ago, svelok said:

These aren't necessarily cards I want to exist, think are balanced, or believe would be good game design

1 hour ago, SpiderMana said:

Maybe try r1-3, non-Vultures don’t need that

53 minutes ago, Npmartian said:

I'm hesitant to allow this into the game.

Maybe I poorly explained myself... I was just thinking about the implications of the existence of initiative killing (vs if all ships were Fel's Wrath), the value of passing around tokens vs sharing them, and the Vulture's (theme-driven? mechanics/balance-driven?) lack of a talent slot. Not homebrewing cards, just musing what those things would be worth, and then in turn, what that says about the game/ship design and how it interacts with other factions.

For example:

Vultures obviously benefit substantially from removing initiative killing from the game, since it is both one of their main weaknesses, and also fundamentally alters their playstyle (I forget if it was said in this thread or another, but Vultures dislike range 1 trades, unlike most swarm ships - because they just die so much easier than their 3 agi or 4hp cousins in other factions so the best R1 shots will just get picked off first.) But it does exist, at least until 3rd Edition 👀 , which creates a weird binary for Vultures (and other low init ships, but especially Vultures). Taking two damage means nothing, taking three damage is a big loss. Taking 6 damage is monumentally worse than taking 5.

That's the trait that makes Vultures so alpha-oriented, which is a strength but also a weakness. We have two tactical relays that help out on that front, Kraken and K2-B4, but for various reasons that defensive buff ends up being channeled into just more raw alpha potential, either by saving shots or applying strain. Which is interesting - CIS current faction design pulls it deeper and deeper into that alpha strike even when deploying tools that on paper decrease reliance on it, which is probably responsible for CIS weak meta standing currently. The faction has multiple builds, but they're all ultimately driven by alpha-strikes, which means it has certain hard or borderline unwinnable matchups (lists that alpha-strike harder at higher init) and as-is, will probably rise and fall directly in response to how alpha-friendly the meta is (Rebel beef is very alpha-resistant, and very popular, and of course this isn't the first time someone has pointed out how hard games get when CIS sees an Upsilon across the table.)

6 hours ago, Npmartian said:

I'm hesitant to allow this into the game. I've played a bit of Armada, and General Riekaan (?) has an ability that's quite similar and is somewhat meta-warping. Now, X-Wing is a different game, but this could go really bad. I'd limit it to 1 ship a turn.

Riekaan is totally different, though, because Armada doesn't have separate activation and combat phases. If you keep a ship alive with Riekaan, it gets to do all the things it would have done that turn anyway, including activating squadrons or moving to block or controlling an objective.

As 9/10 times in X-Wing, ships are only destroyed in the engagement phase the only effect this would really have is that lower initiative ships effectively get the benefit of simultaneous fire against higher initiative ships.

This was literally Fel's Wrath's ability in 1e and it was universally joked about as the worst ability in the game. Granted, separating it from a pilot ability would have some beneficial combos (Biggs would love it, for example), but I don't think it would be anywhere is game changing as Riekaan.

You'd probably have to add the clause "when a friendly ship at range 1-3 is destroyed during the engagement phase...." but still.

9 hours ago, GuacCousteau said:

Riekaan is totally different, though, because Armada doesn't have separate activation and combat phases. If you keep a ship alive with Riekaan, it gets to do all the things it would have done that turn anyway, including activating squadrons or moving to block or controlling an objective.

As 9/10 times in X-Wing, ships are only destroyed in the engagement phase the only effect this would really have is that lower initiative ships effectively get the benefit of simultaneous fire against higher initiative ships.

This was literally Fel's Wrath's ability in 1e and it was universally joked about as the worst ability in the game. Granted, separating it from a pilot ability would have some beneficial combos (Biggs would love it, for example), but I don't think it would be anywhere is game changing as Riekaan.

You'd probably have to add the clause "when a friendly ship at range 1-3 is destroyed during the engagement phase...." but still.

To be fair, how much of Fel's Wrath's problem came from being a lowish-PS TIE Interceptor with no elite slot?

If that ability had been on a ship less dependent on moving last to be effective, it'd probably have shown up a lot more.

Round one is over!

...I’ve now seen one of my Vultures get one-shot. By a Torrent. With no mods.

23 hours ago, SpiderMana said:

Eesh you guys really underestimate Vultures. I'll admit there are several fairly meta builds that would probably tear them apart, but those are overpowered against most things, so that shouldn't be the measuring stick.

Idk, it can be tiring sure, but you guys are making me want to fly 8 again tomorrow (Hyperspace Trial) just to prove that they don't need Maul 😂

These two statements don't contradict each other. In my experience Vultures really don't need Maul and Murder of Vultures (8) can perform well, but their success depends on variance too much for their price (the easiest point of comparison is TIE swarm and Vultures lack Howlrunner and Iden for beating bad variance). I've played more than thirty games with different Vulture squadrons (8, Wat+6, Maul+5) and I actually like 8 more than the other lists, but if you screw the opening you're done.

@Pink_Viking yeah I get that. I just try to not blame variance, I guess.

LLWW with Maul+5 so far, one more round and if I win I should be top 16? I think? It might come down to MOV which. Won’t be so great for me but.

Dang, obliterated Poe and Nein and he scooped half-health Ello having done nothing but 2 damage to one Vulture. Missed the top-8 cut by 103 MOV, buuut hey I got my first acrylic range rulers!

I come, bearing numbers. Hyperspace Trial numbers. Don't blame me if any are wrong I don't actually know how to read, also some are incomplete and maybe got added after I looked. Also there were events for the weekend I just have zero lists for.

• Stratagem Cards and Games, Warwick, Australia: 35 players, 4 CIS, 0 in top 8 cut.
• The Game Chamber, London, Canada: 26 players, 2 CIS, 0 in top 8 cut.
• Redcap's Corner, Philadelphia: 73 players, 5 CIS, 0 in top 8 cut.
• Board Crunch, South Carolina: 43 players, 3 CIS, 0 in top 8 cut.
• Gaming Goat, Saint Paul, Minnesota: 49 players, 1 CIS, 0 in top 8 cut. (Lots of missing lists all near the bottom.)
• Red Raccoon Games, Bloomington, Illinois: 60 players, 7 CIS, 2 in top 8 cut.
• Comic Kingdom, Reno, Nevada: 30 players, 6 CIS, 1 in top 8 cut.
• Gdansk, Poland: 60 players, 1 CIS top 8 cut, which won! (From facebook, don't have any lists for swiss.)

Ignoring Poland (because we have to... don't have full lists), that leaves CIS at:

• 8.8% of Swiss, 5.3% of cut (if all 7 factions were evenly distributed, it would be 14.3%)
• 10.7% conversion rate (vs a baseline of 17.7%)

Furthermore, the highest placing CIS list at each event, in order as above, asterisk indicates lists in top cuts:

• O-66, Dark Courier, Skakoan Ace, 2x Vulture
• Maul + Dooku
• Maul + Dooku
• Maul + 4 Vultures
• Sear + 6 Vultures
• 8x Vultures* (also in cut: Wat + 6 Vultures*)
• Maul + 5 Vultures*
• Maul + Dooku + 3x Vultures*

I believe there was only one other CIS player out of our 28 players in the Kansas City area trials yesterday. He had a heavier Maul with 4 Vultures, but I think I beat him, so. No CIS in cut, that I know of.

Not sure what lists were in the cut, as I left, but a rough approximation of the lists I saw:

• 3 Republic Beef!Swarms (2 people had 3 Torrents w/Sinker and Luminara, another had 2 generic Torrents and 3 generic ARCs)
• 3 Parking Brake Han+Lando's
• Emon w/ 2 generic Starvipers
• Poe/Ello/Nein
• Kylo+Quickdraw+Tavson (? Not sure beyond it being Kylo and an Ups, the other ships were dead while I watched that match.)
• 3 Howl/Iden swarms (two were full, a third was Vader+Miniswarm)
• Five-RZ-2's
• Anakin+Obi-Wan (Not sure which but one had SNR, and I'm pretty sure both had Delta.)
• Three-X + Jake (Wedge+Luke+Thane I think?)
• At least one FO TIE swarm?
• 2 Maul+Vulture Swarm

That's 18... Dang, I thought I could remember a higher percentage of them.

I think the numbers are so low with separatist lists it’s hard to pull great conclusions. I think some of the recent showings have promise though. We shall see. The Hyena should make a big splash for them.

Numbers are low because you need to spend much more to have a decent list.

We had Small Hyperspace Trial this weekend.

I met this list twice, in Swiss and in cut, and it was quite effective both times. First time I lost with 9 MoV, mostly due to forgetting about the Tractor and putting Luke between two rocks and in Maul's arc so he could push me on a rock 🤣

In the semi-final I wiped it out, but it was a tough fight. So it placed in top 4.

Kraken on a lowly Bubble was actually a nice twist, as that guy was effectively bottom of my priorities (you have to go for the cheap, weak droids firs - or go for Maul). Yet it remains useful the whole game, and hit like a brick at r1 for no cost at all. Also watch out for that tractor. I mean, don't do stupid ship like I did my first game, but in the 2nd game Luke got tractored in closer, got -1 agility and then ate a whole lot of energy-shell shots.

Energy-Shells are pretty must a much-have IMO. And one Struts lets one of those droid become a very effective turret for most of the game.

It also has the advantage that you can field it with just a Servants pack, a Vulture pack and the Sith box.

Something out of Sweden (199)

Darth Maul — Sith Infiltrator 65
Hate 3
Tractor Beam 2
General Grievous 3
Ship Total: 73
Half Points: 37 Threshold: 5

Feethan Ottraw Autopilot — Belbullab-22 Starfighter 37
Kraken 10
Ship Total: 47
Half Points: 24 Threshold: 3

DFS-311 — Vulture-class Droid Fighter 24
Energy-Shell Charges 4
Ship Total: 28
Half Points: 14 Threshold: 2

Trade Federation Drone — Vulture-class Droid Fighter 20
Energy-Shell Charges 4
Ship Total: 24
Half Points: 12 Threshold: 2

Trade Federation Drone — Vulture-class Droid Fighter 20
Energy-Shell Charges 4
Grappling Struts 3
Ship Total: 27
Half Points: 14 Threshold: 2

1 hour ago, Green Knight said:

Kraken on a lowly Bubble was actually a nice twist

Feethan Ottraw Autopilot — Belbullab-22 Starfighter 37

Kraken 10
Ship Total: 47
Half Points: 24 Threshold: 3

I use him with the configuration and 2x Separatist drone with Esc for a teamplay game with friends (100 pts), do not underestimate this ship ! He may be Ps1 but he can do a perfect attack at range 1 twice if you let him.

Truly a Mvp for my games !

32 minutes ago, Arkanta974 said:

I use him with the configuration and 2x Separatist drone with Esc for a teamplay game with friends (100 pts), do not underestimate this ship ! He may be Ps1 but he can do a perfect attack at range 1 twice if you let him.

Truly a Mvp for my games ! 

I confess to totally thinking "why would anyone want to take this piece of TRASH" before playing.

Then, in both games, he totally overperformed for his cost.