SD says: lose 1 charge when suffer a damage.

But a ship doesn't suffer damage when it's shielded.

So if I give Soontir stealth device and shield upgrade, soontir still rolls 4 green dices even if he loses a shield?

5 minutes ago, A Fistful of Dices said:

But a ship doesn't suffer damage when it's shielded.

yes it does.

Rule Reference pg 8

Quote

When a ship suffers damage, that damage is suffered one at a time. For each damage a ship suffers, it loses a shield by flipping the shield to its inactive side.

You are thinking of the game state of Being Damaged, which is not the same as suffering damage.

Quote

A ship is damaged while it has at least one damage card. A ship is critically damaged while it has at least one faceup damage card

Is this official?

I ask as there are examples where the literal reading of the card is not what is actually intended.

57 minutes ago, dmcgee1 said:

Is this official?

I ask as there are examples where the literal reading of the card is not what is actually intended.

is what official? in what capacity? the rules of the game are official, yes. @Lyianx is 100% correct. suffering damage can be resolved by loosing shields.

that's from page 9 of the rules reference, even though the section on damage starts on page 8.

58 minutes ago, dmcgee1 said:

Is this official?

I ask as there are examples where the literal reading of the card is not what is actually intended.

Definitely official. The 2 terms are clearly worded in the Rule Ref. And I'm 99.9 % sure that this is also the intended way to play it, and the way that almost every player has played this until now.

Some effect can deal cards without actually damaging a ship (Seyn Marana) but they are very rare.

The reasoning that a ship loses stealth device the first time it is damaged, even with shields, is the intended way to play it, is also based on a balance concern ; ie. if that wasn't the case, stealth device would be busted strong. Boba, brobots, whisper, etc, would never leave home without it :P. And even for ships with less green die, it would be a super cheap way to increase the durability of a ship with lots of shield like an upsilon or a sith infiltrator.

There is a very special snowflake case, from the FFG thread in the rules subsection.

Quote

Q: If an effect says that a ship "loses a shield" (or "loses shields"), has that ship suffered damage?

A: No. While suffering damage does cause a ship to lose shields (if applicable), if an effect causes a ship to lose one or more shields directly, it has not suffered damage.

This is considering "loose a shield" effects.

E.g. from an electro proton bomb. In this special case I would read it that you would keep the stealth device, when suffering the bomb roll's blank result(s)=shield removal.

Otherwise you loose the stealth device as soin as damage is coming in, even damage from going over an obstacle or damage from a device (unlike 1st ed's SD).

29 minutes ago, Managarmr said:

There is a very special snowflake case, from the FFG thread in the rules subsection.

This is considering "loose a shield" effects.

E.g. from an electro proton bomb. In this special case I would read it that you would keep the stealth device, when suffering the bomb roll's blank result(s)=shield removal.

Otherwise you loose the stealth device as soin as damage is coming in, even damage from going over an obstacle or damage from a device (unlike 1st ed's SD).

Well thats not quite the same thing, but yes. When an effect specifically says "loose a shield" this is not the same as suffering damage, but you can loose a shield as a result of suffering damage.

Technically, Plasma Torpedoes effect of " After this attack hits, the defender loses 1 shield. " would also not disable stealth device by itself, so if you could somehow prevent the damage after the Neutralize Results step of a Plasma Torp attack, you would loose a shield, but not loose stealth device.

1 hour ago, Lyianx said:

Well thats not quite the same thing, but yes. When an effect specifically says "loose a shield" this is not the same as suffering damage, but you can loose a shield as a result of suffering damage.

Technically, Plasma Torpedoes effect of " After this attack hits, the defender loses 1 shield. " would also not disable stealth device by itself, so if you could somehow prevent the damage after the Neutralize Results step of a Plasma Torp attack, you would loose a shield, but not loose stealth device.

Biggs and Selfless could allow this, FWIW.

4 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Biggs and Selfless could allow this, FWIW.

No they cant. They both happen "before the Neutralize Results step", and the plasma torp says "the ship loses the shield at the end of Step 4: Neutralize Results and before Step 5: Deal Damage.

They could allow a ship to be hit by a plasma torp without suffering damage, resulting in that ship losing a shield but suffering no damage, keeping it's stealth device intact. I made no assertion about relative timing of abilities.

3 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

They could allow a ship to be hit by a plasma torp without suffering damage, resulting in that ship losing a shield but suffering no damage, keeping it's stealth device intact. I made no assertion about relative timing of abilities.

Does it, though? I know this would have been true in 1e, but I don't think it is now.

Biggs triggers before the Neutralize results step. Meanwhile,

"4. Neutralize Results: During this step, pairs of attack and defense dice Neutralize each other. Dice are neutralized in the following order:

a. Pairs of [evade] and [hit] results are canceled.

b. Pairs of [evade] and [crit] results are canceled.

The attack hits if at least one [hit] or [crit] result remains uncanceled; otherwise, the attack misses."

I know that in 1e, Selfless or Draw Their Fire wouldn't change whether the attack hits or misses, but the timing in 2e seems to indicate that Biggs can prevent an attack from hitting. There's nothing in the FAQ in the Rules Reference, or in the specific rulings thread onhere that suggests that an attack thwarted by Biggs or Selfless would still hit and not miss.

...huh.

Yeah ok that's fair enough.

Im still tripping up on stuff a year in.

1 minute ago, thespaceinvader said:

...huh.

Yeah ok that's fair enough.

Im still tripping up on stuff a year in.

There's a lot of stuff, and a lot of it is only such a tiny bit different.

I apologize up front, as I am not trying t be difficult. I will play it the way it is worded, and assume that it will be played as such in tournaments.

That said, I am not wholly convinced that a ship should lose it's Stealth device immediately upon losing a shield. After all, shields effectively prevent damage.

I really would like to see FFG rule on this. Again, my apologies, but this is not making logical sense, to me, though I will play it as such until and if an official ruling says otherwise.

49 minutes ago, dmcgee1 said:

After all, shields effectively prevent damage.

They Absorb damage, they dont prevent it.

1 hour ago, dmcgee1 said:

I apologize up front, as I am not trying t be difficult. I will play it the way it is worded, and assume that it will be played as such in tournaments.

That said, I am not wholly convinced that a ship should lose it's Stealth device immediately upon losing a shield. After all, shields effectively prevent damage.

I really would like to see FFG rule on this. Again, my apologies, but this is not making logical sense, to me, though I will play it as such until and if an official ruling says otherwise.

Like i said, just think of the balance of the game.

It would be really, REALLY strong, if stealth device worked as long as you have shield. It's already a good upgrade on certain ship, and that's while it works once. Having it work sometimes double the amount, or even quadruple the amount of time, would either need it to be completely re balanced in point based on shield value, or become instantly too good for what you pay.

(And that's without going into regen....)

2 hours ago, dmcgee1 said:

I apologize up front, as I am not trying t be difficult. I will play it the way it is worded, and assume that it will be played as such in tournaments.

That said, I am not wholly convinced that a ship should lose it's Stealth device immediately upon losing a shield. After all, shields effectively prevent damage.

I really would like to see FFG rule on this. Again, my apologies, but this is not making logical sense, to me, though I will play it as such until and if an official ruling says otherwise.

don't apologize. show your work. what in the rules gave you that conclusion?

this image is a snip from the rules reference page 9, so straight out of the official rules.

2 minutes ago, meffo said:

don't apologize. show your work. what in the rules gave you that conclusion?

this image is a snip from the rules reference page 9, so straight out of the official rules.

What strikes me about this is that losing a shield *isn't* a substitution or replacement for suffering damage: it's the default effect . Being dealt a damage card is the replacement effect.

@A Fistful of Dices your only fault is using logic instead of the game rules. A friend of mine and myself run into these same quandaries.

Getting used to all the rules and how timing and abilities work is all you have to know in this game...logic means little to nothing to FFG 😉

3 hours ago, DarthDarxide said:

@A Fistful of Dices your only fault is using logic instead of the game rules. A friend of mine and myself run into these same quandaries.

Getting used to all the rules and how timing and abilities work is all you have to know in this game...logic means little to nothing to FFG 😉

There is logic to this. If you hit a ship, stealthed or not, you hit something, you know something is there.

I'd also say that "suffering damage to shields" isn't like some strange voodoo of technical language.

The "I didn't take damage because I had shields" feels a lot more like it's trying to use specific and hair-splitting language.

//

As to the understanding of Stealth Device (or any card with the words "damaged" or "suffers damage"), I feel like a good question to ask: is Damage verb, or is Damage adjective.

• Damaged is an adjective in X-Wing. Stuff like Wulffwarro and Null care about being damaged. It's about whether or not you're in a particular state, whether or not you have damage cards on your ship.
  • If it's an adjective, a state, shields don't count.
• Suffering Damage is a verb. Lieutenant Tavson cares about Suffering Damage, about whether an action is happening. If this is happening right now, spend a charge and do something.
  • If it's a verb, an event, a thing which is happening, shields do count.
• Stealth Device is clearly asking about a verb. After [verb happens], lose 1 charge.

18 hours ago, theBitterFig said:

I feel like a good question to ask: is Damage verb, or is Damage adjective.

This. You can 'become damaged' without 'suffering damage' (seyn) and you can suffer damage without becoming damaged (which is the normal effect of shields).

Stealth Device triggers off 'suffering damage', not off 'becoming damaged' or off 'losing shields', so even if you never take a damage card, the stealth is still lost.

From R2-D2 Crew Card:

"During the End Phase, if you are damaged and not shielded, you may roll 1 attack die to recover 1 shield."

Damaged is apparently not the same as not shielded.

31 minutes ago, dmcgee1 said:

From R2-D2 Crew Card:

"During the End Phase, if you are damaged and not shielded, you may roll 1 attack die to recover 1 shield."

Damaged is apparently not the same as not shielded.

Rules Ref, page 9, top left (part of the Damage entry which starts on page 8 ) :

"A ship is damaged while it has at least one damage card. A ship is
critically damaged while it has at least one faceup damage card."

3 hours ago, Hiemfire said:

Rules Ref, page 9, top left (part of the Damage entry which starts on page 8 ) :

"A ship is damaged while it has at least one damage card. A ship is
critically damaged while it has at least one faceup damage card."

Inferred from the rules, then, a ship is "SOMETHING-ed" if it has at least one active "SOMETHING." A ship is...

• ... Shielded if has at least one active shield charge.
• ... Damaged if it has at least one damage card.
• ... Critically Damaged if it has at least one faceup damage card.
• ... Locked if it has a lock token assigned to it.
• ... Cloaked if it has a cloak token.
• ... Jammed/Disarmed if it has a jam or disarm token, respectively.
• ... Stressed/Strained/Depleted if it has one of those relevant tokens.

There are some oddities, of course (a ship may have Tractor or Ion tokens, but is not Tractored or Ionized until it reaches the relevant threshold for its base size), but in general: if you have "Something", you are "Something"-ed.