On the new map, the Drowned Merchant River splits in two at Toshi Ranbo – one branch following its usual course to the west, the other to the southeast, past the Castle of the Emerald Champion (and, quite possibly, if you squint, past Otosan Uchi and Slow Tide Harbor. Yet surely both branches, flowing in opposite directions, towards opposite outlets, don't have the same name.

Anyone have any idea what this new, second Drowned Merchant River is called?

15 hours ago, ColdObiWan said:

On the new map, the Drowned Merchant River splits in two at Toshi Ranbo – one branch following its usual course to the west, the other to the southeast, past the Castle of the Emerald Champion (and, quite possibly, if you squint, past Otosan Uchi and Slow Tide Harbor. Yet surely both branches, flowing in opposite directions, towards opposite outlets, don't have the same name.

Anyone have any idea what this new, second Drowned Merchant River is called?

I don't think it's ever been named. And you better not take a too close a look at some details of Rokugani geography...

Ha! Too true!

But I've been thinking it over today and I'm thinking the flow of the river might've been reversed:

It used to be that the river flowed from the Iron Rings Cascade westward towards the City of the Rich Frog, where it sort of met up with the Three Sides River to flow south.

I think that, in the FFG version of the map / geography, the Drowned Merchant and Three Sides Rivers both start up in the Unicorn lands and split at the City of the Rich Frog. Then the Drowned Merchant River flows eastward to the sea, and the Iron Rings Cascade just feeds into that river, which keeps on going. Makes much more sense than the river splitting...

The flow of rivers has me deeply puzzled as well. Looking at the River of Gold, it flows down from Scorpion only to fork at the Fox Clan's Palace: "South of Scorpion lands, the river forks. The smaller branch runs east to the ocean, while the main trunk of the river continues to wind southward."

This short stretch to the east is apparantly navigabe, because: "The Fox Clan's palace is built overlooking this juncture. The Fox's inability or unwillingness to stop Mantis raiders from sailing in and attacking Scorpion shipping has been a sore point between the clans for some generations."

Okay, except for rivers forking being a really rare thing, I follow it so far. But then I get really thrown by the southern arm: " The last navigable stretch of the river ends at Clear Water Village-in truth, a city-and below that, the river becomes an impossible tumble of rapids and waterfalls."

So if both arms from the Fox Clan's palace lead down to the same level (sea level), the drop over both is the same. Given that the southern arm is MUCH shorter than the eastern arm, I'd expect the southern arm to be calm and fluid, and I'd expect rapids and waterfalls in the eastern arm. If there are no waterfalls in the eastern arm, then the atitude drop cannot be much. So how do we then have the southern arm travel a long way, and then suddenly hit rapids and waterfalls at Clear Water Village? Did the water flow uphill just because the kami want to enjoy the waterfalls to the south? Or am I missing something and did I misread the whole thing?

Also, what direction are the Kaiu Wave Walls facing at Clear Water Village? " Clear Water Village is the Crab Clan's best trading port, and as such, it is heavily fortified, with conventional walls surrounding it on land and the immense Kaiu Wave Wall securing the harbor against attacks from the sea."

Do they protect upstream (to the North) or downstream (South)?? Given how the river becomes non-navigable I guess they must be facing north, but then they'd protecting against attacks from the river, not to the sea? Edit: The sidebar on pg. 65 of Shadowlands states that the wave walls protect the mouth of the river... So that would be... South? Towards the non-navigable part???

4 hours ago, Derk_g said:

So if both arms from the Fox Clan's palace lead down to the same level (sea level), the drop over both is the same.

Agreed.

5 hours ago, Derk_g said:

Given that the southern arm is MUCH shorter than the eastern arm

It's actually quite a bit longer. Castle of the fox - port that never sleeps - sea to the east, as opposed to castle of the fox - castle of the sparrow - black crane estates - hida castle - earthquake fish bay to the south.

5 hours ago, Derk_g said:

 If there are no waterfalls in the eastern arm, then the atitude drop cannot be much.

Not necessarily it can still drop a reasonable distance. A reasonably gentle slope the whole way down to the sea is still perfectly navigable.

5 hours ago, Derk_g said:

So how do we then have the southern arm travel a long way, and then suddenly hit rapids and waterfalls at Clear Water Village?

presumably it's almost completely flat for most of its length, then drops off a shelf as it hits the gulleys indicated between Hida Castle and the bay.

5 hours ago, Derk_g said:

Also, what direction are the Kaiu Wave Walls facing at Clear Water Village? " Clear Water Village is the Crab Clan's best trading port, and as such, it is heavily fortified, with conventional walls surrounding it on land and the immense Kaiu Wave Wall securing the harbor against attacks from the sea."

Given the name, I guess they're considered part of the Kaiu Wall. So they'd be protecting to the south.

5 hours ago, Derk_g said:

Towards the non-navigable part???

Yes. Just because the river is all-but unnavigable (or even completely so!) to conventional boats isn't a reason to leave a hole in the fortifications where inhuman oni and the dead are concerned. Beware the risk of attack by daemonic oni-salmon.....

If I follow it, it looks something like this:

fox castle - (east) - relatively short but continuous gentle slope - sea

l

(south)

l

long, near enough flat riverbed

l

clear water village

l

kaiu wave wall

l

short sequence of rapids and falls dropping a distance equivalent to the eastern route in a relatively few miles

l

earthquake fish bay

Magnus, that is indeed the only description that remotely makes sense, although there really would be no river flowing south if there were a quick, smooth runoff to the south. But leaving base geographyt aside I cannot come up with a better explanation.

I am still stumped by the Kaiu wall though, as (in I believe EE) the suggestion is made that it is more a defence against the Crane, using the Shadowlands as an excuse... Invasion up the unnavigable stretch of river...

1 hour ago, Derk_g said:

I am still stumped by the Kaiu wall though, as (in I believe EE) the suggestion is made that it is more a defence against the Crane, using the Shadowlands as an excuse... Invasion up the unnavigable stretch of river...

Not unless it's in Shadowlands. The reference to the Kaiu Wave Wall quoted above is the only one mentioned - and frankly any Crane Invasion of Crab lands (a) seems highly unlikely as the Crab are firstly specialists in defensive fighting and secondly probably the militarily strongest clan after the Lion and (b) would surely be more likely to come through Yasuki territories or the fringes of Sparrow Clan territory as that's a land border between the two Great Clans and one where any historically disputed claims are more likely to lie.

Aaaand I just found the answer to the 'where are the rapids' riddle in the 4th Edition 'Strongholds of the Empire':

"While the River of Gold is wide and slow-moving for most of its length, a set of rapids to the north of Clear Water Village prevent it from being fully navigable. The Crab have gotten around this by building a small river port above the rapids. Over the years this has grown into a small satellite village, North River Wharf."

This is pretty much what I was working to, so yay!

It's perilous looking for geographic sense in maps of fantasy worlds. Few fantasy cartographers have any understanding of the processes that shape the landscape--plate tectonics and orogenesis (mountain building), erosion, glaciation, hydrology, etc. (calling out my creds here...I have an M.Sc. in Geology). So you can't really blame them for geographic things that don't make a lot of sense. Yes, they COULD, and probably SHOULD do at least some cursory research in this stuff, but they usually don't, and just draw maps that a) look pretty and cool and b) support the story they want to tell. Besides, I guess they can always lean on, "Eh...gods and magic."

And, all that said, the map of Rokugan isn't...terrible, from a geographic standpoint. There are fantasy world maps out there, some for major works and franchises, that are a whole lot worse.