7 hours ago, Wolfmanhays said:

Until this last weekend, I was a casual player, although I have been playing and supporting the game since the original wave 5. I did play in an open series last weekend and I am complaining about what was, for me, a negative play experience. It was a game that has tainted my first competitive X-wing event. Besides, I don’t care about first edition issues anymore, because this is second edition, the lists you mentioned are not relevant anymore.

Those were mere examples.

Let's talk about how the match went, and how you approached such squad instead of calling for this, that and what not.

22 hours ago, AgentoftheEmpire said:

Kudos for proposing a reasonable idea instead of the constant frothing at the mouth about this subject.

...but all us glue-eaters like frothing at the mouth... it makes the glue taste better.

On 4/3/2019 at 5:31 PM, FriendofYoda said:

Phantoms will likely go up 2 points across the board in July, FFG have been willing to step in so far I think that’ll continue and for the better

Like most things, balancing the phantom requires more nuance than a +2 points ban hammer.

1. I3 Imdaar is fine at 43. No one even touched them when they were 44. No juke possible here
2. I4 Sigma +2 points. It has juke and can fly in formation. This is the current problem pilot. Not the others.
3. I4 Echo +0 points. Can't fly in formation. I don't see Echo in top results, so no nerf required.
4. I5 Whisper +2 points. Powerful pilot ability. I5 should be more costly. (cough* resistance A-wings)

Think of Juke as a ship ability. Phantoms with talent slots should be priced to be balanced with juke, cause it's auto-include.

11 hours ago, Tvboy said:

Just take away the talent slot from the Aces and bump the cost up a little bit. Maybe even take it away from Whisper too, just to prevent another triple Juke list like Whisper+Echo+Onyx from rising up to replace quad phantoms.

According to what I'm hearing from the people playing the list, the power comes from the ability to have 3+ ships with Juke and a free evade on top of the Phantoms unmatched maneuverability.

I think those proposals would pretty much remove Phantoms of any type from the table. We need to distinguish between ships that are good and ships that are broken (or at least broken in some specific combo). I think upping the cost of the Sigmas is probably the easiest and maybe the fairest way of dealing with the quad Phantom build, which seems a touch too strong. Removing talent slots from ships like Whisper that are doing well but hardly dominating the meta seems like a bad kneejerk reaction to me.

I'd also point out that, while Phantoms do technically get a free Evade, it's not quite as free as it seems. In order to keep their cloak/decloak chain going they can't spend that Evade, but with 5 total health and 2 Agility you can often force them into tough decisions about when to spend that Evade and when to keep it. Then you'll often have one ship take a round off in order to cloak and come back into the fight later. Also, as pointed out a few times above, at I4 they are fantastic at terrorising lower Initiative pilots but against I5 or I6 they struggle a bit more, and their fragility comes into play. If you force them to spend their Focus token before they shoot their offence goes down significantly.

29 minutes ago, Jike said:

I'd also point out that, while Phantoms do technically get a free Evade, it's not quite as free as it seems. In order to keep their cloak/decloak chain going they can't spend that Evade, but with 5 total health and 2 Agility you can often force them into tough decisions about when to spend that Evade and when to keep it. Then you'll often have one ship take a round off in order to cloak and come back into the fight later.

Agree wholeheartedly. And that's why a free evade isn't gamebreaking; because if you need it, you pay for it later on by not being able to cloak.

What's a problem is the interaction with Juke, because that just requires you to be evading, so it's a permanent offensive boost which essentially costs you nothing but points and slots to enable.

The thing is, Juke only really works with a free evade. Yes, it's a nice ability but the decreased effectiveness of your opponent's defence dice is generally less than the decreased effectiveness of your attack dice (because you're not focusing). So I only really see the talent ever being taken on ships with Stygium Array, Full Throttle, or an evade-generating (or attack dice modifying) pilot ability.

This is all very amusing.

I played a few games against this and similar lists with the now defunct Kavil/4LOM/Quad/Palob combo and all games were very close.

That Scum list copped the points bat to the tune of 30 points whereas the Sigmas went up 4 points.

Now I am not saying the Scum list didn't need adjusting (it did) but so too does this one - Dengar5 has it about right in my opinion.

I envisage 3 Juke Sigmas and a filler ship would still be quite strong.

I guess we can start to theory craft a list that beats this consistently. has anyone found one that does?

22 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

I guess we can start to theory craft a list that beats this consistently. has anyone found one that does?

Not before the local guy who plays it a lot stopped playing a lot.

22 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

I guess we can start to theory craft a list that beats this consistently. has anyone found one that does?

And more to the point it's not just about beating it it's about beating it AND being in a position not to lose to everything else.

7 hours ago, Dengar5 said:

1. I3 Imdaar is fine at 43. No one even touched them when they were 44. No juke possible hee.

So you say I3, with double reposition (one pre movement, one after) and access to double tokens for 43 is OK compared to like I1 XT65 for 41? 🤔

Ddidn't @Oldpara stomp all over it with his Ketsu/Teroch/Talonbane build?

I played a pair of phantoms a lot (never 4). Phantoms were upped by the last point change because despite the little price up and crew lost, their biggest threats were massively nerfed :

- Supernatural : counter the impredictable decloak (36pts on init6 ?! really ?)

- Proton torps : effective at range 3 as juke

- Luke (because of proton and SN nerf) : counter juke

- Adv Sensor : counter the impredictable decloak

- Bobba : reroll juked dices, init 5

So why not simply reintroduce natural predators of phantoms like big ships (high health, poor agi) with turrets ? They are not played enough and it's a shame because of others non phantoms-ships. Try to juke a decimator or ghost...

So, a part of the answer is on their threats and the new factions got tools against phantoms :

- mass calculate sharing : counter juke

- mass force : counter juke

- reposition at init 4+

And... Juke price should be reduced enough to be average for ships with evade action. Part of the problem is the combination of free evade and cumulative Juke who stacks (one Juke for 5pts : too expensive | 4 jukes for 20pts : far too cheap). A good solution could be to limit number of free evade chassis or/and Juke.

After all, i would be happier to see more big ships like decimator and ghost, i hoped to convince people that the problem/solution is far more complicated than just a cost modification.

2 hours ago, Dreadai said:

Ddidn't @Oldpara stomp all over it with his Ketsu/Teroch/Talonbane build?

The plural of anecdote is not data, and Teroch in particular is as close to a hard counter as exists in the game, for Phantoms.

Back when I was genuinely trying to work out how to futz with them my plan was Teroch Palob, Genesis Red with proton torps, and... something, I don't recall. genesis copies the tokens when he takes a lock, palob steals one, terry removes the other, and a 5hp 2 green ship with no tokens doesn't last long against two well modified 4 die attacks.

6 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

I guess we can start to theory craft a list that beats this consistently. has anyone found one that

Upsillons are pretty good against it.

7 hours ago, Dreadai said:

Ddidn't @Oldpara stomp all over it with his Ketsu/Teroch/Talonbane build?

I've beat 2 Quad Phantom list during Adepticon Swiss, and lost against Vader 3 Imdaars in tops. 1 mistake and you're toasted.

List has tools to deal with Phantoms but it's nowhere near hard counter. I would say 60/40.

15 hours ago, Bucknife said:

...but all us glue-eaters like frothing at the mouth... it makes the glue taste better.

Like aerating wine!

8 hours ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

I guess we can start to theory craft a list that beats this consistently. has anyone found one that does?

I wish hotshot was green token, instead of only focus or calc. A jamming turret would be goofy fun paired with VTG. The 1.0 ISB slicer coming back would be nice, or maybe a Jam bomb and TraSim. Sounds like jamming may a good start. Forces them to stay cloaked or lose the evade preventing shots out.

Universal: any cannon carrier, freelance slicer

Rebels: HWK, Sabine crew (doesn't really count)

Empire: Lambda, Reaper, ISB slicer to help Jam to stick

Scum: G-1A, HWK, Mining TIE Seevor, Old Terroch(Similar)

Resistance: T70 hardpoint

First Order: Upsilon

Republic: nada

CIS: Titled Sith Infiltrator (combos with drones pretty well)

Probably more, but at a quick glance.

On 4/3/2019 at 5:33 PM, The Penguin UK said:

Resistance 5s won't survive the next points increase. Which is a shame, because 2 A-Wings is the only thing that seems to work with Rey, so unless she gets a points decrease, there's nothing out there to fly her with when the As inevitably go up!

Resistance YT is a joke. Right above Jumpmaster as most useless big base in the game right now. In a game where ship count has grown, large bases are a dying breed for the most part.

2 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Resistance YT is a joke.

Tell this to the guy that made a cut with Poe Han at Adepticon

2 hours ago, Cloaker said:

Resistance YT is a joke. Right above Jumpmaster as most useless big base in the game right now. In a game where ship count has grown, large bases are a dying breed for the most part.

It's not great, but you CAN make it work - I have. The problem is, as I've pointed out, is that there are not very viable wingmen. Losing the A-Wings (which do need a points increase), will punish the YT unless it's reduced by a similar margin.

12 hours ago, Dreadai said:

Ddidn't @Oldpara stomp all over it with his Ketsu/Teroch/Talonbane build?

probably more to do with his skill with the list than it actually being a bad matchup for juke phantoms.

I heard that big base shadow caster caused some issues with decloaking in close to it and this might be a way to disrupt its options. big base ships are less popular now so it could be the juke player wasn't expecting to face them and was caught unprepared?

pure speculation on my behalf. tractoring onto obstacles or into awkward spots seems solid vs low init phantoms so maybe that scum list had the right elements of disruption and disruption with Ketsu and Teroch to deal with quad phantoms?

I recall the creator of the squad saying he thought Talonbane was the least imp ship in the squad. If that's true then Ketsu + Old T + ? could be the squad that trumps them.

what about Palob in Talonbanes spot? This squad might be good vs juke phantoms...

Old Teroch (56)
Predator (2)

Ship total: 58 Half Points: 29 Threshold: 2

Ketsu Onyo (70)
Fearless (3)
Shadow Caster (6)

Ship total: 79 Half Points: 40 Threshold: 5

Palob Godalhi (40)
Engine Upgrade (2)
Moldy Crow (18)

Ship total: 60 Half Points: 30 Threshold: 3


Total: 197

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v6!s=200!98:127,:;126:121,,,,,160:;112:,,,,107,,156:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

3 more points to spend.

13 minutes ago, Da_Brown_Bomber said:

probably more to do with his skill with the list than it actually being a bad matchup for juke phantoms.

I heard that big base shadow caster caused some issues with decloaking in close to it and this might be a way to disrupt its options. big base ships are less popular now so it could be the juke player wasn't expecting to face them and was caught unprepared?

pure speculation on my behalf. tractoring onto obstacles or into awkward spots seems solid vs low init phantoms so maybe that scum list had the right elements of disruption and disruption with Ketsu and Teroch to deal with quad Phantoms?

I recall the creator of the squad saying he thought Talonbane was the least imp ship in the squad. If that's true then Ketsu + Old T + ? could be the squad that trumps them.

Oryginally I tried Ketsu + OldT + double tap Scurrg, witch on paper looks more scary and beefy than Talonbane but it turned out Talonbane fits lot better.

Actually you could fit Ketsu + 2 double tap Ion Scurrgs, but I doubt it will be better than striping tokens Old T + "R1 Torpedo" Cobra.

Edit: Palob is good alternative: immune to Juke, and token stripping.

50 minutes ago, Oldpara said:

Oryginally I tried Ketsu + OldT + double tap Scurrg, witch on paper looks more scary and beefy than Talonbane but it turned out Talonbane fits lot better.

Actually you could fit Ketsu + 2 double tap Ion Scurrgs, but I doubt it will be better than striping tokens Old T + "R1 Torpedo" Cobra.

I love double tap scurgg and have used 2 in a squad with Drea with some success. the issue is the scurgg is slow and its hard to get shots on a ship as tricksy as the phantom. I think its why cards like Qi'ra and Slave1 title are really good choices just now because ur movement becomes much less predictable.

one issue with Palob is he's only int 3 so sigmas get to move [edit: after] and fire first so there gonna either gang up on Palob or just fly around him pretty handily.

How about Kavil. Ion cannon seems good here. not sure if its enough vs phantoms. thoughts?

Old Teroch (56)
Predator (2)

Ship total: 58 Half Points: 29 Threshold: 2

Ketsu Onyo (70)
Fearless (3)
Shadow Caster (6)

Ship total: 79 Half Points: 40 Threshold: 5

Kavil (43)
Expert Handling (2)
Ion Cannon Turret (4)
Veteran Turret Gunner (6)
"Genius" (2)
Proton Bombs (5)

Ship total: 62 Half Points: 31 Threshold: 4


Total: 199

View in Yet Another Squad Builder 2.0: https://raithos.github.io/?f=Scum and Villainy&d=v6!s=200!98:127,:;126:121,,,,,160:;85:120,138,,90,1,69,,:&sn=Unnamed Squadron&obs=

my thinking here is kavil gets to use expert handling to close the distance to enemies and has bombs and ion to control some airspace vs phantoms, punishing any he can get shots on.