3 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

This! 48 means you have space for 1 Juke if Juke stays at 5pt. That is not a problem anymore.

....Or you can get 3 with Juke and have 41 points left over for a variety of nice Imperial filler (personally, I'd go with a Reaper, which can kind of fill the same role as a fourth Juke with Jam and still be durable). And, at the points change, that filler could be expanded if any ships go down in cost. Maybe not as good, but I don't think it pushes the phantom out of the top spot for imperial choices. 53 points for a Juke Phantom is still a good deal.

9 minutes ago, AgentoftheEmpire said:

I see that. But more to my point. Again, a majority of players did not care about the Sigma Aces with Juke until a few System Opens had happened.

Debatable. It’s popped up a few times elsewhere but between Hyperspace and the lack of large tournaments up till now the masses weren’t paying attention. The more you see it though the more you will see more.

Have you used it? Or against it? I’ve done both a lot and was laughing before the juke points change that I’d run three and one with crack.

It needs to die as a list type. It should be the Phantom that goes up

1 minute ago, LagJanson said:

Debatable. It’s popped up a few times elsewhere but between Hyperspace and the lack of large tournaments up till now the masses weren’t paying attention. The more you see it though the more you will see more.

Have you used it? Or against it? I’ve done both a lot and was laughing before the juke points change that I’d run th  ree and one with crack.

It needs to die as a list type. It should be the Phantom t  hat goes up

Then how about we also kill 5 Resistance A-Wings and 5 Yions too at the same time?

Cloaking rules are fine. Sigmas should keep their talents. Juke is not a problem and should not have gone up. Making a unique point system for increased cards (pilot or upgrade), or for upgrades on certain chassis is stupid - FFG already has too many scaling point systems for cards, it's getting too hard to keep track. The problem here is that the 4 Phantom list is still too efficient for its points - even though the list is about skill and positioning, which is what the devs want X-Wing to be about.

Here's what I think the optimal solution should have been - the Phantom generics should have been limited from the start. *** for Imdaars, ** for Sigmas. When I first saw the CIS vulture generics that were also limited, I immediately thought "This should have been designed for other ships. Why wasn't it?". If generic pilots and some upgrades were limited we wouldn't be having this conversation. (Should have also been the case for Barrage Rockets, Veteran Turret Gunner, maybe rebel Y-Wings, etc. But that's another thread.)

Now, I don't think every generic should be limited - some are meant to be spammed, like regular TIE fighters; some ships are meant to be limited by their price. Making some generics limited would create more faction identity - within a certain faction, said faction has limited access to a certain chassis. TIE Phantoms were very expensive and rare because of their cloaking tech. Limiting generics could also encourage players to be more creative with listbuilding instead of spamming the most cost effective/efficient thing. I always liked TIE Salad lists. Heck, if this was the case Phantom prices could come DOWN.

But we don't live in a perfect world, so what's the solution? Unfortunately, I think the only way this will be fixed is to raise prices on phantoms - it's the chassis that is the problem same as the Punisher (which is still good). Now, this might make some people angry, but FFG can't make everything perfectly balanced and happy. On the bright side, I'd rather pay a lot for a well-designed ship than peanuts for a poorly-designed one (see the TIE Aggressor).

However, there's another solution that could work. FFG could errata the card, making them limited. This could REALLY make some people mad, but would be good for the game in the long term. And these possible upcoming card packs could be a way for them to re-release the corrected cards. Just tossing the idea out there.

TL;DR - Phantoms are the Problem, not Juke. Generics should go up. X-Wing 3.0 when (sarcasm)

1 minute ago, ImperialAce95 said:

Cloaking rules are fine. Sigmas should keep their talents. Juke is not a problem and should not have gone up. Making a unique point system for increased cards (pilot or upgrade), or for upgrades on certain chassis is stupid - FFG already has too many scaling point systems for cards, it's getting too hard to keep track. The problem here is that the 4 Phantom list is still too efficient for its points - even though the list is about skill and positioning, which is what the devs want X-Wing to be about.

Here's what I think the optimal solution should have been - the Phantom generics should have been limited from the start. *** for Imdaars, ** for Sigmas. When I first saw the CIS vulture generics that were also limited, I immediately thought "This should have been designed for other ships. Why wasn't it?". If generic pilots and some upgrades were limited we wouldn't be having this conversation. (Should have also been the case for Barrage Rockets, Veteran Turret Gunner, maybe rebel Y-Wings, etc. But that's another thread.)

Now, I don't think every generic should be limited - some are meant to be spammed, like regular TIE fighters; some ships are meant to be limited by their price. Making some generics limited would create more faction identity - within a certain faction, said faction has limited access to a certain chassis. TIE Phantoms were very expe  nsive and rare because of their cloaking tech. Limiting generics could also encourage players to be more creative with listbuilding instead of spamming the most cost eff  ective/efficient thing. I always liked TIE Salad lists. Heck, if this was the case Phantom prices co  uld come DOWN.

But we don't live in a perfect world, so what's the solution? Unfortunately, I think the only way this will be fixed is to raise prices on phant  oms -  it's the chassis that is the problem same as the Punishe  r (which is still good). Now, this might make some people angry,  but FFG can't make everything perfectly balanced and happy. On the bright side, I'd rather pay a lot for a well-designed s  hip than peanuts for a poorly-designed one (see the TIE Aggressor).

However, there's another solution that could work. FFG could errata the card, making  them limited. This could REALL  Y make some people mad, but would be good for the game in the long term. And these possible upcoming card packs could be a way for them to re-release the corrected cards. Just tossing the idea out there.

TL;DR - Phantoms are the Problem, not Juke. Generics should go up. X-Wing 3.0 when (sarcasm)

Kudos for proposing a reasonable idea instead of the constant frothing at the mouth about this subject.

Errata'ing to Limited doesn't even seem too bad to me --- limited status only affects list building, and the app/builder approach to listbuilding in 2.0 means it's pretty easy to enforce. Once on the table, the limited status doesn't really mean anything. (Unlike if you errata'd, say, the number of attack dice or something where the card being different would be confusing).

If boosters are coming out they could include erratad cards in them for those who want them (they could still use the old cards as long as they remember the errata). Alternatively they could add a force allocation for each ship in the app, so that it can change dynamically as a balance tool.

47 minutes ago, AgentoftheEmpire said:

I see that. But more to my point. Again, a majority of players did not care about the Sigma Aces with Juke until a few System Opens had happened.

Mine isn’t fake outrage. I got stomped by a sigma juke list. It was a very NPE, my opponent was nice enough, but it feels bad when you lose a ship each turn. Without doing any damage to your opponent.

1 hour ago, AgentoftheEmpire said:

Then how about we also kill 5 Resistance A-Wings and 5 Yions too at the same time?

better yet, why should we? They're valid list archetype, why should we be so quick to destroy them?

59 minutes ago, Wolfmanhays said:

Mine isn’t fake outrage. I got stomped by a sigma juke list. It was a very NPE, my opponent was nice enough, but it feels bad when you lose a ship each turn. Without doing any damage to your opponent.

I lost an Imperial Shuttle to two proton rockets the other day in the first round of engagement before it ever got to shoot.....proton rockets must be OP to and need smacking down.

Just because you get stomped by a list doesn’t mean it’s all powerful, sometimes we lose because the other ship is a better chassis than ours, sometimes because we maneuver wrong, sometimes dice, a lot of times because the other player makes less mistakes. I remember when the Phantom truly was all powerful, try flying against them and learning from mistakes. Now, I’m not denying they are strong, but they definitely aren’t all powerful like the were in the dark times.

29 minutes ago, DarthSempai said:

better yet, why should we? They're valid list archetype, why should we be so quick to destroy them?

5 Ys is pretty rough, to be fair. You either arc dodge or you pretty much lose a ship that turn. If it hasn't died, it most likely is ioned, in which case it will die next turn.

As for 5 RZ2s, I honestly don't feel like it's super difficult to fight. Definitely not an NPE, but not weak by any means.

4 double tapping Ys + 1 Y probably shouldn't be thing though.

Back to the discussion that was going on before being derailed, Phantoms are incredibly efficient even without juke. Adding juke puts them in a whole new level though. It might not be considered a true NPE, but it's definitely incredibly strong. Probably could use a points increase in the chassis, and not so much on Juke.

Any points adjustment to Juke or cheap phantoms that run them needs to consider the idea that even 3 juke phantoms is a pretty solid list. add whatever filler ship you like to them and ur still dealing with a super efficient tough to beat squad.

I don't understand this whine threads. There always will be a top dog list. When does nerfing should stop? When all ships are unplayable? We are after first point adjustments - old boogeymens gone but new ones emerged. I am just curious what will become next NPE after summer point changes that crybabies will whine about.

3 hours ago, AgentoftheEmpire said:

Then how about we also kill 5 Resistance A-Wings and 5 Yions too at the same time?

A few people on this thread have already mentioned the Resistance?

4 hours ago, AlexW said:

....Or you can get 3 with Juke and have 41 points left over for a variety of nice Imperial filler (personally, I'd go with a Reaper, which can kind of fill the same role as a fourth Juke with Jam and still be durable). And, at the points change, that filler could be expanded if any ships go down in cost. Maybe not as good, but I don't think it pushes the phantom out of the top spot for imperial choices. 53 points for a Juke Phantom is still a good deal.

I believe that's just enough to make the squad a bit more difficult and annoying to play. Which is all that's needed when something gets too popular.

4 hours ago, AgentoftheEmpire said:

Then how about we also kill 5 Resistance A-Wings and 5 Yions too at the same time?

5 Awings are not on the same level in any way because hardly anyone plays them. If 3 out of 251 bring it to adepticon, and one makes cut, then that's not a problem.

What you mean is the XXAA or resistance 5s list. And what's necessary is to make Lulo and Tallie more expensive. That affects 5 Awings, sure, but it is flat out wrong to say that 5A is a problem.

10 hours ago, thespaceinvader said:

N1s when they drop

I can't say I'll mind that one. N-1s have pretty wimpy firepower (torpedoes aside) so Full Throttle + Juke is basically making up for them not getting a 3rd primary attack die.

11 minutes ago, Magnus Grendel said:

I can't say I'll mind that one. N-1s have pretty wimpy firepower (torpedoes aside) so Full Throttle + Juke is basically making up for them not getting a 3rd primary attack die.

Juke torps are going to be an issue.

E: specifically, juke APTs probably, as combining speed 3+ with range 2-3 ordnance is challenging when you don't have a white k turn.

7 minutes ago, thespaceinvader said:

Juke torps are going to be an issue.

E: specifically, juke APTs probably, as combining speed 3+ with range 2-3 ordnance is challenging when you don't have a white k turn.

Yeah, I'm not too concerned about juke proton torpedoes - they have a healthy price and are awkward to use when nailed to a high-speed move

(the same reason I never minded cruise missiles in 1e; if you got a good shot with them you generally deserved it).

Advanced Proton Torpedoes are currently not hyperspace legal and the N-1 might be a reason for them to remain so for the forseeable.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

Advanced Proton Torpedoes are currently not hyperspace legal and the N-1 might be a reason for them to remain so for the forseeable.

This makes Major Rhymer sad.

I'm sure fenn rau is no less upset.

5 hours ago, Embir82 said:

I don't understand this whine threads. There always will be a top dog list. When does nerfing should stop? When all ships are unplayable? We are after first point adjustments - old boogeymens gone but new ones emerged. I am just curious what will become next NPE after summer point changes that crybabies will whine about.

Negative Play Experiences (NPE) do not advance the game call me a crybaby, maybe that’s fair. This is my thread after all, but NPE does not advance the game. was it 5 or 6 of the 18 lists that made the top cut at adepticon. I personally think it is an undercosted list, but my dislike is for the juke mechanic, since ther is no true limitation.

6 hours ago, Embir82 said:

I don't understand this whine threads. There always will be a top dog list. When does nerfing should stop? When all ships are unplayable? We are after first point adjustments - old boogeymens gone but new ones emerged. I am just curious what will become next NPE after summer point changes that crybabies will whine about.

Yeah... no

E: in fact, it was never as wrong to say this as after adepticon. The 228 players we have lists from brought 137 different lists. That is huge diversity, and just one list jumped out: Quad Phantoms

14 hours ago, Cuz05 said:

48 on the Sigma will sit things fine I feel. Juke gets exponentially better with more copies, 1 is hardly worth the points. 4 focused 3 die attacks, even from tricky to pin I4s, wouldn't be list crushingly good. Trick Shot would be a nice flavour but is appreciably hit and miss with just focus.

This sounds reasonable. 4 Phantoms pretty bare or 3 Phantoms loaded sounds like a decent decision.

10 hours ago, AlexW said:

53 points for a Juke Phantom is still a good deal.

Agreed. Personally, as long as Phantoms stay playably potent, I don't mind if they get nerfed a little.

12 minutes ago, JJ48 said:

This sounds reasonable. 4 Phantoms pretty bare or 3 Phantoms loaded sounds like a decent decision.

Agreed. Personally, as long as Phantoms stay playably potent, I don't mind if they get nerfed a little.

That's fair, My point was I just think that it doesn't do much to change the stacking of Juke. Current lists are running three copies and a fourth phantom and there are plenty of options that I think still work in the spot of that last phantom at that cost.

It's incredible how many people are complaining about the phantom.
Were you all complaining so much back in the day for Miranda and Nym or the Fennghost? Or were you among the ones playing those horrors so it was all peachy keen?