17 minutes ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

I'll say this, if they are going with a Thunders storyline, I hope Dairu is the Scorpion Thunder.

I was thinking the same thing. Kachiko being a Thunder was pretty flimsy in the old lore, IMO. After what we just read, I don't get the vibe that she is Thunder material.

Spoiler Alert!!!!!

I'm pretty sure I know of at least two Thunders so far. Don't scroll down if you don't want spoilers!!!

Kitsu Warrior = Tygra

Fumio = Snarf

Now we just need to find out who Cheetara, Panthero, Pumyra, and Lion-o are

#thunderthunderthunderthundercatshoooooo

You are an evil, corrupted person.

You ought to be watching Samurai Pizza Cats.

5 minutes ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

You are an evil, corrupted person.

You ought to be watching Samurai Pizza Cats.

That does sound cooler than Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles...…...

1 hour ago, Tonbo Karasu said:

You are an evil, corrupted person.

You ought to be watching Samurai Pizza Cats.

59 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

That does sound cooler than Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles...…...

Oh it is cooler.

So my foray into rampant speculation with no grounds whatsoever.

1. Aramoro fails in Assassinating Toturi, possibly with the help of Kaede. Aramoro returns to report his failure to Kachiko (and Shoju).
2. Kaede either is in Phoenix lands on bedrest due to her pregnancy, or has overtaxed her void magic saving Toturi and Toturi sends her to Phoenix lands to recover and be safe.
3. Daisetsu finds out....or maybe even saw the whole thing from his secret viewing spot of the room where the Sword of the Hantei is kept. He realizes just how dangerous it is that his brother is now Emperor, especially after killing their father, and he and Shahai go into hiding within Otosan Uchi, at least temporarily. Maybe they get help from Shizue, maybe not, but since Shizue is lame, she just has to help them...she can't come with. Shizue works hard at blending into the scenery.
4. Kachiko tells Shoju about what happened, feeling confident that he will support her moves and forgive her. He hides his emotions and does not respond, telling her to return to Sotorii and stay close to him, because he /definitely/ does not trust her now.
5. Shoju decides the only way to enact the will of Joden and keep Sotorii from the throne is to kill Sotorii, knowing it will cost his own life. He puts together a coup with a plan to kill Sotorii. This will make Daisetsu emperor, punish Sotorii, restore the honor of the Hantei house, and make everyone forget or never even bother to unravel the secret of how Joden was killed.
6. Shoju implements a coup to kill Sotorii, but, unfortunately, is unsuccessful. Toturi is the one who stops him, being too honorable to allow him to kill Sotorii, but still knowing why Shoju is doing it. Shoju dies. Kachiko does /not/ die....she has kept close to Sotorii the whole time, didn't know of the Coup, and Sotorii is now dependent on her to mask over his own guilt about killing his father and make him feel justified, and she has protected him from the consequence of his action. Sotorii needs her.
7. Toturi, again being super honorable, after having saved Sotorii's life, takes this moment of his triumph to try to explain the truth to the Empire about Joden's edict...that Daisetsu was to be the heir, and maybe even redeem Shoju's action a little, or at least justify it. However, this is obviously the absolutely wrong thing to do, because Toturi doesn't know that Sotorii killed Hantei. Sotorii realizes that if Toturi is listened to at all, what he did to his father might be discovered. Sotorii calls Toturi a traitor, in league with Shoju, and who could contest it? He declares Toturi and Daisetsu (in absentia) ronin or even announces they should be brought and executed.
8. Toturi escapes and flees. Daisetsu flees also.
9. Sotorii or Kachiko direct Matsu Tsuko to send the Lion armies after Akodo Toturi, trying to shore up her own position and make the best of it and save herself and what is left of the clan.
10. Fighting erupts everywhere.
11. Chagatai's factions use the chaos in the Lion to start attacking deeper into the Lion clans Lands. Altersarnai doesn't like it, but what can she do?
12. The Phoenix elemental council are freaking out because Kaede is sick but they know terrible things are coming they can't control. And the Unicorn are using Meishodo against the Lion....
13. Kisada can't take any more. The wall will fall if he gets no help, and these stupid power plays are meaning he's getting less than he was. He decides there's no choice. He has to come in and take the Shogunate and enforce the peace until the current situation with the Shadowlands is resolved and an heir is selected. He's busy on the Wall...He sends Yakamo and Kuni Yori to go take over the capital and put a damper on the situation.
14. Yakamo's army is met by Mirumoto Hitomi and the Dragon Army who has been waiting for them (thanks Togashi). There's a terrible fight, Yakamo is defeated, temporarily, and he maybe loses a hand to Hitomi in the confrontation.
15. Kuni Yori has a great idea for how Yakamo can do what his father has ordered him to do. Maybe even solve that Hand problem. And once that is done, Kisada can fix everything. Yakamo agrees. Dark rituals occur.
16. Hida Sukune did not like his father's plan re: the Emperor from the start, and goes to stop Yakamo before its too late.
    
    It's too late.
17. Kuwanan is convinced by the Scorpion's actions and planted evidence left by Kachiko's jealous brother that Kachiko was behind Satsume's murder and she was part of the coup all along. Hotaru doesn't trust Kachiko, but realizes that Kuwanan's evidence is too thin and/or staged and believes that Kachiko was not part of the coup but was betrayed by Shoju. She tries to stop Kuwanan from going after Kachiko, wanting to confront Kachiko herself. Misunderstandings arise.
    
    Don't want to go any further and this is random speculation. But fun.

Whoa, whoa, whoaaaaa!! I’m away for a month and come back to:

1) the Perfect Land going from minor sect to Full-Fanatical-Cult.

2) the Moto contemplating the possibility of killing the Shinjo Heir

3) The soon-to-be-substituted crown prince killing his father and Emperor, being aided by Kachiko in hiding the crime, and suddenly being soon-to-be-Emperor.

Seriously... I cannot leave you guys alone!

12 hours ago, Manchu said:

A clawed tentacle holding up a severed arm counts as two votes?

The shadowlands operates on a true democracy - a one man, one vote system.

Fu Leng is the one man with the one vote.

12 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

Also: what does happen when Lion gets their sword back? I was interested I that story but someone interrupted the Emperor before he could finish.

It's also mentioned in Imperial Gifts:

Looking back, she noticed a second, shorter sword beside Kunshu’s stand, this one slightly curved in the manner of a tachi. It was a simple soldier’s sword, no adornment, no marks whatsoever. “What is that other sword?” “That is Shori,” Daisetsu replied, “the Ancestral Sword of the Lion. It rests beside Kunshu in a place of honor. The Lion Clan Champion cannot even hold that blade without the blessing of the Emperor.” “I had not realized the Lion were so picky about drawing their blades.”

Assuming the old L5R fiction is being maintained , Shori is essentially given by the Emperor to the Lion Clan champion when their oath to the throne is called on - i.e. the Reigning Emperor is calling on the Lion Clan to declare war on another part of the Empire on the Emperor's behalf. Basically it's a physical object which represents the Emperor's ability (in theory) to throw the Lion Clan en masse at anyone who displeases him, whatever the Clan's own opinions of the victim. Kunshu is a very pretty, very sharp sword but by comparison is 'just' a sword; you can't destroy a city with it. You can with Shori.

10 hours ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

More thought later, but for now lets bask on how deeply Kachiko has ****** up. She did not just screw her own husband, she has screwed with her own son as well. You would think that when she is told by Sotorii that Jodan was going to disinherit him she would take the time to remember that that Dairu had very forcibly, very publicly stood with Daisetsu.

True. And more importantly, Sotorii isn't the sort to hold grudges at all, obviously.....

9 hours ago, Ishi Tonu said:

After what we just read, I don't get the vibe that she is Thunder material.

No, me neither. The clan thunders should essentially show the iconic qualities of the founding Kami. Bayushi's was the 'whatever it takes' attitude and frankly a penchant for self-sacrifice where required, rather than necessarily being deceptive and ambitious. There's an iconic death scene of Hantei in a play, and Bayushi, for example, is pointedly the one to say "yes, you are dying from these wounds" to the Emperor because it needed to be said and no-one else could bring themselves to do it.

9 hours ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

I'll say this, if they are going with a Thunders storyline, I hope Dairu is the Scorpion Thunder.

He comes across as a good kid. He's still very young, though, so it depends when it happens.

Of the scorpions we know at the moment, He, Yojiro and Miyako all seem positive characters. I particularly like Yojiro though; given his "I'm going to do exactly what I'm ordered to and not break the rules but still arrange for everything to work out for the good of the Empire" with Toturi. I haven't read the Scorpion Novella, though, I admit.

5 hours ago, KakitaKaori said:

Daisetsu finds out....or maybe even saw the whole thing from his secret viewing spot of the room where the Sword of the Hantei is kept.

Oh. Bugger. That is the room with Kunshu he was watching, wasn't it? Of course, there's no really good reason for him to have been watching that late....aside from pure bloody chance.

Shahai's reaction is probably relevant too if anyone tries to threaten her twue wuv. Because she's still managed to arrange it that no-one else in the palace up to and including the Hidden Guard has any meaningful idea what she's capable of.

19 minutes ago, Tabris2k said:

the Moto contemplating the possibility of killing the Shinjo Heir

In fairness, I think more "trying and 'very sadly accidentally' failing to save him" but yes, the point of "wouldn't it be interesting if the Shinjo Ruling Line died out?" is still promising no good thing for the Unicorn's internal stability, especially since, you know, they're still kind of at war.

1 hour ago, Magnus Grendel said:

In fairness, I think more "trying and 'very sadly accidentally' failing to save him" but yes, the point of "wouldn't it be interesting if the Shinjo Ruling Line died out?" is still promising no good thing for the Unicorn's internal stability, especially since, you know, they're still kind of at war.

THIS!

And as a Shinjo fan, if that really has to happened, I hope the Shinjo faction will win.

14 hours ago, Suzume Chikahisa said:

I'll say this, if they are going with a Thunders storyline, I hope Dairu is the Scorpion Thunder.

You are wise beyond your years. Yes to this!

14 hours ago, Tabris2k said:

Whoa, whoa, whoaaaaa!! I’m away for a month and come back to:

1) the Perfect Land going from minor sect to Full-Fanatical-Cult.

Just to point out, that story is supposed to be set before the opening fictions, per the author.

Great story. I love the part where once again the Lion Clan maintain their spot at the top of the crap heap. Perfect synergy between the LCG and the storyline! Seriously though Toturi is in for a world of hurt. He could easily get killed off or executed. And this leaves the Lion in the hands of Matsu Tsuko. I love Tsuko as a character but if Sotori is on the throne then she'd be honor bound to support him. Sad Lion

46 minutes ago, Eisenmerc said:

I love Tsuko as a character but if Sotori is on the throne then she'd be honor bound to support him. Sad Lion

Actually, even the Rokugan-comforting interpretation of Bushido allows a way of objection: kanshi aka "seppuku but cooler".

On 4/5/2019 at 3:48 AM, KakitaKaori said:

1. Aramoro fails in Assassinating Toturi, possibly with the help of Kaede. Aramoro returns to report his failure to Kachiko (and Shoju).

If the writers are ballsy then Aramoro kills Kaede. Possibly after a very sweet Kaeturi scene where Kaede tells Toturi that she is pregnant with their first child - then Aramoro crashes through the window, fights Toturi, fails to kill him but somehow they get physical separated (collapsing floor?), and Toturi has to watch as Aramoro kills Kaede instead (extra points if he does it in some really brutal way like slicing her head off at the jaw or cleaves her in two from shoulder to hip) most likely out of sheer spite. MAXIMUM TRAGEDY.

10 minutes ago, AtoMaki said:

Actually, even the Rokugan-comforting interpretation of Bushido allows a way of objection: kanshi aka "seppuku but cooler".

If the writers are ballsy then Aramoro kills Kaede. Possibly after a very sweet Kaeturi scene where Kaede tells Toturi that she is pregnant with their first child - then Aramoro crashes through the window, fights Toturi, fails to kill him but somehow they get physical separated (collapsing floor?), and Toturi has to watch as Aramoro kills Kaede instead (extra points if he does it in some really brutal way like slicing her head off at the jaw or cleaves her in two from shoulder to hip) most likely out of sheer spite. MAXIMUM WASTE OF AN ESTABLISHED CHARACTER.

Fixed that for you.

4 minutes ago, 987654321 said:

Fixed that for you.

Not sure if it would be a real waste. Kaede currently is only involved in the Toturi plotline and her (brutal) death can serve a great purpose there. We know enough of her to care about her and, well, understand Toturi's immediate reaction even if he goes absolutely haywire and his later turmoil. A Phoenix schism can be also set up on her death. But she is pretty much unimportant for the greater plot otherwise. She is the perfect vehicle/sacrificial lamb to kick Toturi into overdrive and tell the fans that they can throw the old canon straight out of the window. Not to mention the "anyone can die so better be afraid for your favorite character" message.

Ok, so now that I had time to re-read and digest:

The modern depiction of Kachiko is a near perfect mirror of Old5r. There really is no difference in characterization. The main difference is that in Old5r Yokuni gave her the Thunder pep talk and sent her back to the Imperial Palace to fix what she broke. Her story arc was done there and I think that should probably have been it, her continued presence in the storyline not really adding anything. I don't think we are going to get a repeat of that, and I think it's a good thing.

Aramoro was also very one note in Old5R but, while I would like to see an updated take on the Aramasu and Asami family situation, this Aramoro is irredeemibly monstruous. I'm kind of hoping to either see Toturi wipe the floor with his *** or Kaede just unmake him. Mainly, seeing Kaede unmake him, I suspect that would gall him even more.

Incidentally, I'm actually excited that we may get Toturi the Black. Particularly if he is forced to take pregnant Kaede and Daisetsu in tow. Bonus point if Shahai and Dairu also tag along. The jokes just write themselves.

As for the situation at hand:

1- Shoju might actually be forced to go along with Kachiko. She will still be very lucky not to be immediately forced to take permanent residence in a tree in Scorpion lands, but the way the situation played out there isn't much that he can do about it.

• Revealing Sotorii's hand in the murder of Jodan and trying to push for a Daisetsu regency under Shoju is untenable due to both the Scorpion's role in the cover-up and for the appearance of a naked power-grab. Even if Toturi survives he doesn't seem to have accrued the political capital to prop up the Scorpion.
• Dispatching Sotorii is an option, but it would be higly suspicious so soon after Jodan's death and, again, it would seem to be a naked power grab by the Scorpion that would immediately be the primary suspects. If they got the Seppun and Miya in on it it might work, but good luck with that.

This also makes clear that Shoju's worry about the Scoprion being too much in the limelight was absolutely correct. Large swathes of the Scorpion seem to be under the misunderstanding that Real Politik is about knowing when to stab someone in the back instead of knowing when people will be thankful to you for stabbing someone in the back. This is an important distinction that Kachiko and her troupe have forgotten and had they known this the Scorpion wouldn't be immediatelyt be suspect of malfeasance and would have much more leeway to act.

2- The more I read, the more astounding Kachiko's mismanagement of the entire situation is. Her assumption that Toturi is the only one to know of Jodan's intent to abdicate in favour of Daisetsu is particularly puzzling. Even if Satoshi's seeming ignorance of Jodan's intentions could have assured her the abdication wasn't widespread knowledge:

• She had no way to know Toturi was the only high level official in the know, and who Toturi took into confidence.
• In fact, she knew that Toturi could not be the only official in the know because of the need for a regency for the underage Daisetsu. Even considering that she thought the regent would be Kakita Yoshi she should have immediately surmised that Yoshi would also be aware of the Edict as would anyone he briefed on his side. And despite that she bulled through with her plan.

The only thing she is remotely right about is that indeed Sotorii's patricide might have caused Jodan's plan to fail anyway. Unfortunately she was the one to make sure that is the most likely outcome.

Also, it's precious she is so shocked that Shoju doesn't share his plans with her and that that he would only do so because of suspicions over Hotaru. She seems to forgotten that Shoju was not the only man not to share his plans with the Imperial Advisor , in fact the very same man she was considering if he wouldn't be better of dead and that she was so glad someone else had taken care of...

At this point the only question is if Kachiko would a better fit for Fortune of Irony or for Fortune of Lack of Self-Awareness...

1 hour ago, AtoMaki said:

She is the perfect vehicle/sacrificial lamb to kick Toturi into overdrive 

No thanks.

8 minutes ago, Kinzen said:

No thanks.

We already have something like that with Matsu Mitsuko, and she was fed to the angst grinder on a considerably shorter notice than Kaede would be.

My prediction: Aramoro fails to kill Toturi, but Kachiko edits Jodan's last edict.

When the forged edict is later announced publicly, Toturi is named regent. Shoju knows that's not correct and accuses Toturi of betrayal and treason. War ensues, and Sotorii supports the Scorpion. And with more enemies than allies, the Lion clan finds itself fighting half of Rokugan.

4 hours ago, Saibrock said:

My prediction: Aramoro fails to kill Toturi, but Kachiko edits Jodan's last edict.

When the forged edict is later announced publicly, Toturi is named regent. Shoju knows that's not correct and accuses Toturi of betrayal and treason. War ensues, and Sotorii supports the Scorpion. And with more enemies than allies, the Lion clan finds itself fighting half of Rokugan.

Never mind.

Jodan both acknowledged that he failed Sotorii as a father and had a plan to correct this failing. Moreover, the point of this plan was also to correct however he may have also failed Daisetsu, by tempering Sotorii into a man Daisetsu could rely upon and trust completely and who would be able to serve Daisetsu and the Empire with wisdom and virtue.

No one can reasonably blame Jodan for not suspecting that Sotorii would murder him. Patricide is the most heinous abominatiom in Rokugan; it is virtually unthinkable — especially when the perpetrator is the crown prince and the victim is the Emperor. Indeed, it is precisely because of his paternal love for Sotorii that Jodan made the mistake of informing him about the abidcation and disinheritance in a vulnerable moment.

The notion of killing off Kaede is dumb. I’m not even talking about “fridging” (and its ideological implications); it’s simply a waste of a character, as correctly pointed out above. Matsu Mitsuko's death was beautiful. The way she faced death was not only the conclusion to her story but also the introductiom of her character. This is in no way comparable to Kaede. While (both male and female) characters sometimes exist principally to have death scenes, and there’s really nothing wrong in itself about that, Kaede is clearly not one of them.

35 minutes ago, Manchu said:

Jodan both acknowledged that he failed Sotorii as a father and had a plan to correct this failing. Moreover, the point of this plan was also to correct however he may have also failed Daisetsu, by tempering Sotorii into a man Daisetsu could rely upon and trust completely and who would be able to serve Daisetsu and the Empire with wisdom and virtue.

Yeah you are right actually, that last post was a very poorly remembered hot-take, the last story did mention him taking Sotorii with him to the monastery to try and make a better man of him.

I’m still not sure that Jodan was a particularly effective Emperor though...so for a pragmatist that doesn’t buy in to the spiritual morality of the setting I still am not sure that Sotorii being emperor would be an issue for many people.

2 hours ago, Kani Kantai said:

Did we really need a clandestine heir-swap to overly complicate things and risk splintering the Empire into civil war?

I think we do, because it's the catalyst that sets so many other pieces (Toturi, Kachiko, Shoju, and maybe others) in motion.

Jodan knows that he can't just let Rokugan have a bad emperor, and trust the systems in place to fix Sotorii. They are not just dealing with the normal clan disputes. Tensions running higher than normal is not the only issue. The Kami are out of balance, PLS is gaining momentum, Dragon are on the move, Shadowlands activity is increased and evolving their tactics.....and to just pass things on to Sotorii, knowing he's not prepared would be the worst option.

It would signal that Jodan gives his divine blessing to Sotorii and for other clans to challenge that would just make the great clans look worse, should they attempt a coup. So tensions mount, clans war with each other harder, and/or Sotorii exacerbates the clan conflicts. If a coup occurs it likely increases support for the PLS, and/or all the clan squabbles leaves Rokugan weak to any number of theats.

If Jodan isn't killed then his edict happens and Rokugan likely begins to mend itself. Toturi and Shoju do a good job at advising Daisetsu, Sotorii cleans up his act and becomes an excellent advisor and Rokugan is well positioned to handle any threats that come it's way.

This was a predictable but necessary plot device to plunge Rokugan into chaos.

2 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

I think we do, because it's the catalyst that sets so many other pieces (Toturi, Kachiko, Shoju, and maybe others) in motion.

Jodan knows that he can just let Rokugan have a bad emperor. They are not just dealing with the normal clan disputes. Tensions running higher than normal is not the only issue. The Kami are out of balance, PLS is gaining momentum, Dragon are on the move, Shadowlands activity is increased and evolving their tactics.....and to just pass things on to Sotorii, knowing he's not prepared would be the worst option.

It would signal that Jodan gives his divine blessing to Sotorii and for other clans to challenge that would just make the great clans look worse, should they attempt a coup. So twnions mount, clans war with each other harder, and/or Sotorii exacebates the clan conflicts. If a coup occurs it likely increases support for the PLS, and/or all the clan squabbles leaves Rokugan weak to any number of theats.

If Jodan isn't killed then his edit happens and Rokugan likely begins to mend itself. Toturi and Shoju do a good job at advising Daisetau, Sotorii cleans up his act and becomes an excellent advisor and Rokugan is well positioned to handle an threats that come it's way.

This was a predictable and necessary plot device to plunge Rokugan into chaos.

Good points.

37 minutes ago, Ishi Tonu said:

If Jodan isn't killed then his edit happens and Rokugan likely begins to mend itself. Toturi and Shoju do a good job at advising Daisetau, Sotorii cleans up his act and becomes an excellent advisor and Rokugan is well positioned to handle an threats that come it's way.

This was a predictable and necessary plot device to plunge Rokugan into chaos.

The question then is what will happen with Toturi. If he announces the edict, then the support of the Emerald Champion and Lion Champion keeps the regency from looking like a Scorpion plot and the situation defuses too. Even if he doesn’t get killed by Aramoro something would need to happen.

1 minute ago, Doji Tori said:

The question then is what will happen with Toturi. If he announces the edict, then the support of the Emerald Champion and Lion Champion keeps the regency from looking like a Scorpion plot and the situation defuses too. Even if he doesn’t get killed by Aramoro something would need to happen.

It's hard to predict how the specifics will pan out.

I don't think Aramoro is going to succeed in his assassination attempt, but, the attempt itself will at the very least force Toturi into hiding and potentially him taking Daisetsu with him, which also has a spider-web of consequences.

I'm gonna go out on a limb and predict we get a False Toturi this time around. Assassination attempt fails but Toturi is forced underground taking Daisetsu with him. Scorpion get a duplicate Toturi to show up at things when needed and concoct a story that gets Daisetsu out of the capital so his presence is not missed...…….but they do not account for his connection with Shaihai and she starts raising concerns about his leaving without speaking to her. Or Scorpion might even try to spin some story that Shaihai was influencing Daisetsu and that is why he was sent away to the Dragon lands to become a monk...…………..ironically that is exactly where Toturi is taking him. Meanwhile Kaede and False Toturi's relationship becomes fractured and she loses her baby and spirals into the void.

But probably more likely, the assassination attempt fails so Scorpion just blame Toturi for some sort of power grab because of how the whole Lion/Crane feud ended with Scorpion winning, lol. Scorpion likely knows that Toturi is not loved by several of the other clans daimyos. Lion would likely just denounce Toturi, so it's a pretty safe play. Manchu probably knows better on this, but, that's the impression I get from the stories so far.