So my GM sent us up agianst an storm trooper attack all was fine until he sent out a bunch of storm trooper snipers who when fired from extrem range could hit with only 1 purple difficulty and negate any uppgrades we throw at theam like doge

So my question is is that something you can do with the actully books or is this homebrew?

To be honest, it sounds like a homebrew thing because thus far there is no talent I am aware of that can outright cancel upgrades and reduce a 4 difficulty check (with setback dice no doubt, unless he's literally shooting on a open field) to a 1 purple check. Now, I aren't jumping to conclusions like I usually do as he might be inexperienced and is still learning the system, but I am feeling that your GM has some beef that he should be resolving properly with conversation rather then using the table

1a) Is this a regular occurrence? Does this GM regularly throw high powered guys that don't seem to follow the rules? Sometimes we can all just break a little bit. Just something to think about before speaking to him.

1) What was your intent that scene? Any GM who is willing to throw a curveball like that either very badly wants to achieve a particular outcome (force the PC's to retreat, or kill/capture them) or has a grievance against the players that he wants to resolve via thrashing them at the table. Either way it's important to get a clear reason as to why he chose to do this so you can both unpack.

2) Now that you know why he did this, communicate and figure out how to smooth things out: If he has a geninue grievance over something, find out what you guys can do to make the game smoother. Sometimes that requires buying into scenes he sets up, like chase scenes when your party is clearly overwhelmed and so fourth, is it a particular thing you as players do? Do you min-max so hard that he feels the only way to challenge you guys is to throw extremely powerful foes at you? Or does he just hate GMing period and wants someone to take this burden off his shoulders so that he can go back to being a player? Sometimes, especially with a group who is new to the system, being able to clearly communicate intent and putting rails on the party is a nice learning experience, as regularly the heroes in star wars have very little agency as to their actions until Luke got separated from the party and their desire to rescue Han Solo as a personal motivation. Try and mediate to make everyone's experiences more pleasant around the table. I would preferably do this before you all step around the table again so that you have a firm relationship going into this.

3) If he refuses to talk expressively about having a problem, then it might be worth talking to your players to see if they have the same problems. Keep it light and neutral so that you can and try and cooperate with him so that you can both get what you want.

4) If none of that works, maybe it's time for someone else to GM.

Mechanically unless the Snipers have specific talents that reduce the difficulty for range the best he could hope for at Extreme range is 3 Purple with a Scope.

I think there are a few talents that might reduce it by 1 more at most. Unless their are Nemesis powers that say otherwise but these don't sound like they were Nemesis-class...

There is I think maybe one or two signature abilities that may allow the cancellation of upgrades but then that would make them at least Nemesis-class and a whole squad of Nemesis

Stormtrooper-sniper sounds like a bit of overkill...

Otherwise agreed with everything Lord British said; conversation is the key to solving problems...

1 hour ago, GandofGand said:

Mechanically unless the Snipers have specific talents that reduce the difficulty for range the best he could hope for at Extreme range is 3 Purple with a Scope.

I think there are a few talents that might reduce it by 1 more at most. Unless their are Nemesis powers that say otherwise but these don't sound like they were Nemesis-class...

There is I think maybe one or two signature abilities that may allow the cancellation of upgrades but then that would make them at least Nemesis-class and a whole squad of Nemesis

Stormtrooper-sniper sounds like a bit of overkill...

Otherwise agreed with everything Lord British said; conversation is the key to solving problems...

Oh no this is a minion, what my GM said was that they used a spooter with the sniper

There is nothing in the rules that would use the difficulty of a spotter at short range for the difficulty of the shot at extreme range.

I would allow a spotter to use the Assist Manouver to help the sniper, if in radio contact, or painting with laser, granting a bonus die (probably two with the laser, as spotter is giving away their position).

Yeah thats some BS then, bonus dice maybe or removing Setback but not reducing difficulty.

Good argument could be "Well if they can do it then I'll build a spotter droid to tie directly into my scope and do it for me as well!

...thats actually not bad idea...oh Sniper Drone!

Against only 1 purple at extreme range, my first thought for player use would be Sniper Minion Droid Squad! They probably won't get destroyed ever so far away unless the GM uses snipers against them, and they can hit even Nemesis Enemies easily as they seem to ignore upgrades just by having a spotter - so no Adversary for the big bad guy...

Super broken in a mechanical way, especially as a well build Sniper Minion Group should work quite well against the party anyways...

A single purple die at extreme range sounds like either a misunderstanding of the rules for telescopic sights or a thoughtless extrapolation of it (a really powerful scope should reduce the difficulty even more!).

As for downgrading difficulties to nerf dodge etc, I'm not sure anything in the system does that, and that's probably intentional.

I can see some kind of logic of disallowing Dodge if someone snipes you while unaware (I wouldn't. Probably) But once the first shot has been fired, initiative has been rolled and you're in structured time? Never.

As for spotters, I'd say that's what the assist maneuver is for. If you want to be generous, let the spotter spend two maneuvers assisting and give the shooter 2 boost dice.

Next time you make a character, make a sniper and ask the GM what gear the NPCs were using.

This seems like a vindictive GM. Even with dodges and the normal amount of purpled a sniper minion group should still be very scary for a PC. They may be rolling 3-4 purple with a possible upgrade and some black dice, but they could easily be rolling 4-5 yellow and a few boost dice. That’s still going to hit you most of the time.

Yeah, I'm with everyone else on this. NO. Not cool!

And these snipers are "minions?" I'd never do that. Heck even my NPC "minions" are never just minions!

And I thought I was a tough GM . . .

So here is my take.

Extreme range with scope. Range base is Daunting. Telescopic Scope reduces the base difficulty 1 die. However many people see the word reduce and think downgrade or remove. So 3 adjusted base difficulty.

Conditions of battlefield, smokey with uneven elevation and light to improved cover and concealment.

A minion sqd of say 4 snipers(stat of 3), with e11 sniper blasters, braced, aiming 1 time, as they can't take two maneuvers, another common mistake made by both sides of the table such as using a minion droid assistant. They have 1 or 2 ranks of True Aim(1 for the training flavor and say 1 for an attachment option upgrade), providing 1 or 2 upgrades plus the single Aim boost die. Plus 1 additional boost die for the accurate rating. Say the sqd is assisted by a spotter, 1 boost die, a laser would remove setback dice over adding additional boost dice and would allow for a reduction of a targets ranged defense or cover/concealment defense. The snipers e11s also has a multi-optic another 2 setback removal, but only for environmental conditions.

Dodge upgrades the difficulty of the base difficulty pool. Defense adds setback dice to the pool, however its generated.

So 3 yellow, plus add a green and upgrade to yellow for a total of 4 yellow. 3 boost dice, the potential for the removal of 3 setback dice depending on conditions.

Shooting up slightly at johnnie PC with dodge 1, ranged defense 1, but behind decent cover so 2 defense for that. It's a bit smokey on the battle field and the PC has slightly higher ground. So 2 setback more, 1 for environmental reasons and another for relative strength of position.

So 1 Red, 2 purple, 4 setback at best. The multi-optic removes the single setback for smoke, the laser reduce the defense by 1. Ending with 1 red, 2 purple, 2 setback.

Did i do anything that seems off?

Determine skill and stat.

Set base difficulty, increase base difficulty, reduce base difficulty.

Set and apply conditions.

Add then upgrade then downgrade then subtract dice pool.

Their GM needs to understand the specific terms better i believe. Also i find boost and setback dice are not typically used properly, nor the way in which specific talents, powers, equipment and actions apply when condition X and Y apply, but not condition Z. Such as a multi-optic scope and an elevation strength of position i used above.

On 4/1/2019 at 7:44 AM, amuller93 said:

So my GM sent us up against a storm trooper attack. All was fine until he sent out a bunch of storm trooper snipers who then fired from extreme range, could hit with only 1 purple difficulty, and negate any upgrades we threw at them like dodge.

So my question is is that something you can do with the actully books or is this homebrew?

Did any of the PCs go down or get killed? Because with a set up like that at least one PC is should bite it before they get close enough to take them out. If no one went down then there's your reason why your GM set it up that way. My guess is your group are Combat Monsters (TM) and nothing he's thrown at you does much so he's trying to make things dangerous for you. Sure he may have gone a bit overboard this time but don't get upset look at it like a challenge.

2 hours ago, doktor grym said:

They have 1 or 2 ranks of True Aim(1 for the training flavor and say 1 for an attachment option upgrade),

There aren't any weapon attachments that give ranks in True Aim (afaik), and I think that's intentional.

There is a vehicle attachment that does, but that one's pretty bonkers to start with.

I was just throwing that in to simulate how the Minions got so "good". Super Sniper Robo Vision Rainbow Barrel Compensator*.

* Now with extra glitter and candy sprinkles!

1 hour ago, FuriousGreg said:

Did any of the PCs go down or get killed? Because with a set up like that at least one PC is should bite it before they get close enough to take them out. If no one went down then there's your reason why your GM set it up that way. My guess is your group are Combat Monsters (TM) and nothing he's thrown at you does much so he's trying to make things dangerous for you. Sure he may have gone a bit overboard this time but don't get upset look at it like a challenge.

Yes 2 of us went down me and another player and i was effectively killed (captured but GM told me to make a new character)

And no we have one combat monster but the rest of us are avreage at best

Either GM rules misconception or just an unwarranted beat down. I'd ask the GM for the breakdown of everything that was involved in this minion group, the equipment, environmental and other combat modifers and the talents and abilities that were combined. You saw my dice math. Thats pretty RAW other than the SSRVRBC. What was the size of the Minion group?

In the future try to use a Destiny point to alter or add to the situation.

Alternatively, talk to the GM about possible differences in expectations within the game, maybe you are not on the same page?!

4 hours ago, amuller93 said:

Yes 2 of us went down me and another player and i was effectively killed (captured but GM told me to make a new character)

And no we have one combat monster but the rest of us are avreage at best

Well, I type corrected. It seems then to be closer to what other's here have posted, that you have an adversarial GM who isn't as fluent with the rules as he thinks. The other option is he's made the classic railroading mistake where you want to force a situation on the players, in this case maybe capturing some of you, but rather than handle it as an interlude they create an unwinnable situation. I had a GM that did this all the time, he'd set up a situation where we were supposed to give up or surrender or a certain bad guy needed to get away and to guarantee we'd lose the enemies were insanely over powered or he'd GM fiat something exceedingly unfair.

My advice is to familiarize yourself with the RAW and bring it up to him outside of the game and just ask what that scene was all about. Let him know you're up for a challenge but that just wasn't fun and maybe suggest that if it was a lead up to a situation he wanted to happen that he should just narrate it instead.

16 hours ago, doktor grym said:

So here is my take.

Extreme range with scope. Range base is Daunting. Telescopic Scope reduces the base difficulty 1 die. However many people see the word reduce and think downgrade or remove. So 3 adjusted base difficulty.

Conditions of battlefield, smokey with uneven elevation and light to improved cover and concealment.

A minion sqd of say 4 snipers(stat of 3), with e11 sniper blasters, braced, aiming 1 time, as they can't take two maneuvers, another common mistake made by both sides of the table such as using a minion droid assistant. They have 1 or 2 ranks of True Aim(1 for the training flavor and say 1 for an attachment option upgrade), providing 1 or 2 upgrades plus the single Aim boost die. Plus 1 additional boost die for the accurate rating. Say the sqd is assisted by a spotter, 1 boost die, a laser would remove setback dice over adding additional boost dice and would allow for a reduction of a targets ranged defense or cover/concealment defense. The snipers e11s also has a multi-optic another 2 setback removal, but only for environmental conditions.

Dodge upgrades the difficulty of the base difficulty pool. Defense adds setback dice to the pool, however its generated.

So 3 yellow, plus add a green and upgrade to yellow for a total of 4 yellow. 3 boost dice, the potential for the removal of 3 setback dice depending on conditions.

Shooting up slightly at johnnie PC with dodge 1, ranged defense 1, but behind decent cover so 2 defense for that. It's a bit smokey on the battle field and the PC has slightly higher ground. So 2 setback more, 1 for environmental reasons and another for relative strength of position.

So 1 Red, 2 purple, 4 setback at best. The multi-optic removes the single setback for smoke, the laser reduce the defense by 1. Ending with 1 red, 2 purple, 2 setback.

Did i do anything that seems off?

Determine skill and stat.

Set base difficulty, increase base difficulty, reduce base difficulty.

Set and apply conditions.

Add then upgrade then downgrade then subtract dice pool.

Their GM needs to understand the specific terms better i believe. Also i find boost and setback dice are not typically used properly, nor the way in which specific talents, powers, equipment and actions apply when condition X and Y apply, but not condition Z. Such as a multi-optic scope and an elevation strength of position i used above.

That is a pretty thorough breakdown, but you can't have both a Telescopic Sight and Multi-Optic Sight on the same gun (At least not use them at the same time) and I do not recall the MOS reducing difficulty for range.

Now there are several ways you can add extra Accuracy Dice (Modded Forergip and Marksmans Barrel comes to mind).

While I don't think the GM was vindictive I think he maybe new and more focused on story elements than anything else. I mean the idea of a super-elite ST Sniper squad is kinda cool, but mechanically they should have been Nemesis-level, then the rules kinda go out the Window anyway...

58 minutes ago, GandofGand said:

That is a pretty thorough breakdown, but you can't have both a Telescopic Sight and Multi-Optic Sight on the same gun (At least not use them at the same time) and I do not recall the MOS reducing difficulty for range.

Now there are several ways you can add extra Accuracy Dice (Modded Forergip and Marksmans Barrel comes to mind).

While I don't think the GM was vindictive I think he maybe new and more focused on story elements than anything else. I mean the idea of a super-elite ST Sniper squad is kinda cool, but mechanically they should have been Nemesis-level, then the rules kinda go out the Window anyway...

Just to clarifi about the situation we were evacuating civilians from the planet and thiere was no talk of surrender and he declared that the mission was successful but i think im goning to leave the campainge of diffrently related reasons mostly that i think that my GM is out to get me

Well that sounds like a plan, but for the sake for the remaining players maybe talk to that GM anyway so maybe they may have a better time down the road.

And if he disagrees then poach the other players and find another GM or run your own game...8)

Instead of the multi-optic scope the character could have some form of goggles that do the same thing. As the telescopic scope has no options though, combining the two into 1 device with the removal of an option or increase in hard point requirement. Its the idea of the old U.S. Vietnam era infrared telescopic sight on it. An M1 with a M3 infrared sniper scope.

Yeah there is a Helmet Optics option that I think is 0 Hard Points so that'd cover THAT.

Holy ****, yeah GM hated you guys, sniper rifles are painful, my group found that out the hard way when a GM mistakenly gave NPCs the "E-11s" (has pierce 2 and accurate) thinking it was the standard blaster rifle "E-11"

But yeah, I can understand maybe giving a whole lot of boosts but reducing the difficulty by that much?!? Yeah there is some definite rule violations there...and minions arnt generally known for having talents I could be wrong in this but I think it's rivals and nemesis that can have talents not Minions (correct me if wrong)

My advice is talk to your GM, say calmly "those sniper minions seemed pretty OP, mind discussing how you created them to reduce the difficulty by that much?" And find out how he justified it, your goal is not to grill him about it but to help clarify rules and help make him a better GM

Spotters would only give boost dice for aiming so provided no movement 2 (3 max if not minions) boost dice for a shot and wouldn't count if they were in the same group (1 group = 1 npc slot). And if he brings up multiple scopes point out the physical limitations of being only able to aim down 1 at a time

What ever the result of this chat please be sure to share it with us, we always appreciate conclusions =D

3 hours ago, LMasterList said:

Yeah there is some definite rule violations there...and minions arnt generally known for having talents I could be wrong in this but I think it's rivals and nemesis that can have talents not Minions (correct me if wrong)

Minions can have Talents, but generally do not. Still, if you wanted to give an elite group of Stormtroopers Point Blank 1 or Lethal Blows 1, it's not going to break the game (unlike the monstrosity the OP has described).