2 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

Did you really just make the argument that i4 phantoms are not too good for their price because Xwings can pay a red die to get focus+boost, or because starvipers have a bendy roll?

Nope. I think that the I4 phantoms are priced appropriately.

I said that It is ridiculous that people call for a point increase for a ship that has already been nerfed (swap crew for gunner slot).

If you have read otherwise well, then re-read my post because it is nowhere near what you said.

I agree with you to a point. A single Sigma may be a little undercosted, but is probably in the ballpark. It's once you combine multiple Sigma with Juke that things can get a little out of hand.

As for the nerf, yes they swapped a crew slot for a gunner slot. You can make the argument, though, that that was as much a nerf of Vader crew as it was a nerf of the phantom. The effectiveness of the Sigma chassis itself, especially with Juke, didn't change much.

11 minutes ago, Arma Quattro said:

I  said that It is ridiculous that people call for a point increase for a ship that has already been nerfed (sw  ap crew for gunner slot)  .

Why are previous adjustments in any form relevant when the current data indicates that they are still too efficient for their cost?

12 minutes ago, Arma Quattro said:

If  you have read otherwise well, then re-read my post because it is nowhere   nea  r what you said.  

You tried to equal the benefits of the phantom with benefits of an xwing or starviper to justify that "the i4 phantoms are priced appropriately".

If anything is ridiculous then the idea that an i3 phantom brings the same worth to the table as an i3 xwing for the same points. The i4 is an even worse offender because of juke. Wat.

If multiple copies of Juke is the issue, maybe raise the Sigma Ace just by 1 or 2 points. So if you want to stick to the 4 sigma archetype, you can but with only one or 2 jukes, or if you prefer multiples Juke, you can fit only 3 sigma with a 40pts filler.

Yep, that's my recommended quick fix also. Sigmas up by two limits a list to three Sigmas with Juke, and no additional phantom. Seems like it'd still be good, but each phantom lost would be a little bigger hit to the squad.

4 hours ago, GreenDragoon said:

If that were true then the i3 would be correct at equal points as a red squadron veteran. The imdaar doesn't benefit from juke. And yet I doubt that the free evade on nearly every turn should be at the same cost as an extra hull.

That ignores the massive reposition and better dial. Clearly something is a bit off, no?

I think the dial and decloak roll, although good, doesn't eclipse so much the dial -in the end- that same initiative T-65 when Lea is on the board. The loss of crew last hammer (and access to really only one gunner that is OK-ish) was already a real blow (needed I understand) to the Imps. I truly think it is the one doing the best because it is the one worth taking if you want a hard hitting squad that has something as a bonus (the decloak/evade is a good one, like white K-Turns, free boost and shoot out the rear, getting/sharing a focus at will, etc.). I'm thinking, if the price goes up too much, they will go back to being a filler ship and this Juking Phantom Squad will go the way of the Squad of Legend. There simply isn't much beef in Imp squads, which equals to wiggle room. I think Imp squads are either solid, winning ones, or they live on a knife's edge and cannot pull the consistent wins... not to mention they can (back in 1.0 I know and I think even now save the list were talking which is more Rebel/Scum of old like) are simply exhausting to fly over many matches and days.

1 hour ago, underling said:

Yep, that's my recommended quick fix also. Sigmas up by two limits a list to three Sigmas with Juke, and no additional phantom. Seems like it'd still be good, but each phantom lost would be a little bigger hit to the squad.

The loss of Jukes is actually an exponential one, not a subtractive one. The loss of the one Juke to Crack is recoverable, but the loss of another would not be 2X that loss on the efficiency scale, it would be more than tripple that... IMO.

2 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

The loss of crew last hammer (and access to really only one gunner that is OK-ish) was already a real blow (needed I understand) to the Imps.

I don't understand that sentiment. You are not the first in this thread to say so.

To my knowledge there were largely two crew upgrades that were used: Vader or Sloane, and never together. Some few played around with other crew, like Krennic or seasoned navigator. But that was so little that it can hardly be used as argument for the strength of Phantoms. Now, Vader and Sloane were used on Whisper and maaaayybee Echo. That's it.

So how exactly did the "nerf" of crew->gunner affect Sigmas and Imdaars in any way or form?

5 minutes ago, clanofwolves said:

I'm thinking, if the price goes up too much, they will go back to being a filler ship and this Juking Phantom Squad will go the way of the Squad of Legend. There simply isn't much beef in Imp squads, which equals to wiggle room. I think Imp squads are either solid, winning ones, or they live on a knife's edge and cannot pull the consistent wins... not to mention they can (back in 1.0 I know and I think even now save the list were talking which is more Rebel/Scum of old like) are simply exhausting to fly over many matches and days.

I disagree that a small adjustment (say 2 points) would render them useless. I agree that players would immediately stop using them - as they did with Redline after an effective 15pt increase - but that does not equal bad.

21 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

I disagree that a small adjustment (say 2 points) would render them useless. I agree that players would immediately stop using them - as they did with Redline after an effective 15pt increase - but that does not equal bad.

It will not relegate them to bad, just to not good enough against Rebel beef; that will relegate the squad off the mat and into the box with the Punishers. Oh, and hey, its the circle of life in this thread... well played us? haha!

I believe three Sigmas with Juke, along with another 40-42 point ship, would still be pretty **** good.

Just maybe not six in the top twenty-seven good (counting variants).

18 minutes ago, underling said:

I believe three Sigmas with Juke, along with another 40-42 point ship, would still be pretty **** good.

Just maybe not six in the top twenty-seven good (counting variants).

The argument against it is that the 4th ship either forces the Phantoms to take a disadvantageous engagement, or is thrown away in some form. E.g. a striker is basically the opposite: Phantoms with their candy cane are extremely slow, strikers are very fast and can't go slow.

So it is hard if not impossible to find a 4th ship that really fits. An exception that has been found already is of course Vader.

I agree DG. I just believe the tournament results are too good to have them stay where they are.

I haven't watched any games where three Sigmas plus one are being flown, but my approach would be to group the Sigmas and have the fourth ship be a flanker.

I have no clue whether that'd be effective or not.

20 minutes ago, GreenDragoon said:

The argument against it is that the 4th ship either forces the Phantoms to take a disadvantageous engagement, or is thrown away in some form. E.g. a striker is basically the opposite: Phantoms with their candy cane are extremely slow, strikers are very fast and can't go slow.

So it is hard if not impossible to find a 4th ship that really fits. An exception that has been found already is of course Vader.

Whispers

Duchess is 42 points

Add points and it won’t impact me as I have two. But she is the natural compliment to them.