eloooooooi said:

That's what I was trying to get at before. You don't really need an actual procedure. In fact, it would be virtually impossible to write a "one-size-fits-all" set of "if/then" procedures because this game is so dynamic.

To me, it comes down to this: card text is the same thing as rules text within a given situation. It's not a matter of "which do you follow and which do you ignore" (ie, which takes precedence). It's more a matter of "how does it all fit together for this situation? " Most people intuitively know the following:

1. The Core Rulebook contains the basic instructions for the most general situations and apply "unless otherwise specified."
2. Card text is essentially "specific exceptions" to those basic instructions. That is, card text is the "unless otherwise specified."
3. The FAQ are not rules so much as guidelines for how to interpret the interaction between the basic instructions and the card-specific exceptions.

As such, most people fit the various situations together in that order: Core Rules, modified by cards, bounded by the FAQ. And that's the way it should be done. That's the way it was done when the "Golden Rule" was specifically written in the Rulebook, and its the way I bet you were doing things before I pointed out that the "Golden Rule" wasn't written down anymore.

In essence, you don't really need the "Golden Rule" to be written down because its obvious that this is just how the game works: the cards modify the basic rules, but the FAQ tells you how and to what extent the cards do can that.

In short, do exactly what you always did.

So, to confirm, bottom line is that if I play Kings of Summer, I still can draw only 5 cards total that round but may be capped at 4 cards total if someone drops a winter raven?

Just triple checking....

Twn2dn said:

Yes. That is the ruling from Nate. The additional for the Agenda counts as one of your "3 additional" and kicking cards out of the framework draw does not change your "3 additional."

This may seem redundant at this point, but I just want to quadruple check....If an opponent is running Kings of Summer, I'm running Kings of Winter, and it's summer, the additional draw he/she would receive from my agenda counts towards the "three additional" cap (that is he/she can still only draw a total of 5 cards that round, not 6), right?

FATMOUSE said:

Yes, it would count towards the three additional cards. It seems more clear than the Kings of Summer agenda case - it specifies the end of the draw phase as opposed to "during the draw phase" and so seems to distinguish itself from the framework event of drawing two cards for the turn. If Kings of Summer counts towards the draw cap, then Kings of Winter certainly does. (Don't read this if you are prone to getting confused about the draw cap: In fact, comparing the wording on the draw effects of the two agendas, it seems pretty clear why ktom would argue that Kings of Summer should not count against the draw cap.)

So about the original question then...

With the clarification from Nate, would using the card effect on den of the wolves (to repeat draw phase), count as two of the additional 3 cards then?

Boreas said:

No, because you repeat the whole draw phase. You are not getting 2 additional cards through a card effect, you are getting an additional phase through the card effect - that happens to have the framework draw in it.

Look at the counter-example if that doesn't seem clear enough: The rules state that after the Challenge phase begins, you get to initiate 1 each of the three different kinds of challenges. If you use Den of the Wolf to create a second Challenge phase, but did all three of your challenges in the first Challenges phase, what happens? A new Challenge phase has begun, so you are permitted to initiate one of each challenge each phase (plus card effects for additional challenges).

Same with Den of the Wolf to repeat the Draw Phase. A new Draw phase has begun, so you are (and actually, everyone is) permitted to draw 2 cards in the draw phase (plus card effects for additional cards). That doesn't count against the Draw Cap because you are repeating the "2 for the Draw Phase" part of the rule.

Note that if you are playing with the Summer Agenda, you'd get 2 extra cards - one for each draw phase - and that both would count toward your total of 3 extras.

That really depends how designers of the game want it to be.

"No player may draw more than three additional
cards per round , regardless of card effects."

It could be interpreted as no exceptions limit. (There is no cap for number of challenges per round, so above example is not the best)

I'm not saying that it's true or not - but it may be.

So, ktom, you said you wanted to clarify the Summer Agenda thing with Nate.

Did you have a chance to do so?

Yes. Nate confirms that effects increasing the number of the framework draw beyond 2 will count against the draw cap.

I'm still not entirely convinced of the consistency of this ruling with other rulings that affect framework events, but Nate is the man.

So having a second Draw phase (Den of the Wolf) would give you two more cards but then you'd only be able to draw 1 more due to draw cap?

eloooooooi said:

ktom said:

eloooooooi said:

No. You still have a draw cap of 3 - and each player has the potential to get a total of 7 cards in that round.

There is a difference between increasing the number of cards you draw by modifying a single Draw framework event and repeating the entire phase so that there happen to be 2 Draw framework events in the same round.

Thank God, your former message confused me and I understood that a second Draw Phase would count as 2 additional cards.

Sorry.

"Nate confirms that effects increasing the number of a single framework draw beyond 2 will count against the draw cap."

No need to apologize. Thanks!

The FAQ says :

The Draw Cap
No player may draw more than three additional
cards per round, regardless of card effects.

I'm not sure how to read it. Does this whole sentence means "I can't draw more than 3 additional cards through card effects" or "I can't draw more than 3 addtional cards, (whatever card effects happen)" - where the (whatever card effects happen) wouldn't be necessary.

Thus if I draw additional cards via something that is not a card effect, let's say a cost : would it count in the draw cap? For example :

Any phase : Draw a card to choose and kneel character you control.

If I understand the FAQ, this would still count in the draw cap although it's not a draw effect. How drawing additional cards during an additional draw phase (with the Den of wolf) is different?

The biggest difference is that the word "draw" is used. In fact, the entry in the FAQ goes on to say that only effects that use the word "draw" count toward the draw cap. Effects that say something like "reveal the top card of your deck and put it into your hand" are not counted against the cap, even though you could look at that as a draw effect.

So no, the draw cap does not limit you to putting a total of 5 cards into your hand during a phase. Effects that do not use the word "draw" are fair game and could potentially be used to get a lot more than 5 cards into your hand.

Using "Den of the Wolf" to repeat the Draw phase is not a draw effect - no more than a card that lets you perform an extra military challenge is a kill effect. Therefore, any cards drawn through the resolution of the effect do not count toward the cap.

I got that the word draw is used and that it is different from putting card in its hand, but that was not my point. In my exemple although I used the word "draw", it was not a draw effect since it was a cost and not an effect. That's why, to me, the difference with Den of the wolf is not that the "draw" word is used : both are not draw effects.

ktom said:

The FAQ says :

Only effects that use the word "draw" are considered a draw effect.

To me, it does not mean "only effects that use the word draw count toward the draw cap" but its just the definition of a draw effect.

Where does the FAQ limits the draw cap to card effects only ? As I read it, it also limits the draw cap to anything that would make you draw additional cards, even if it's not an effect.

I read in the FAQ two different rules about the drawing cap :

1) No player may draw more than three additional cards per round, regardless of card effects.

2) Thus, each player draws two cards during the draw phase, and through card effects may draw up to a maximum of three additional cards in the course of a single round.

Are 1) and 2) the same? My point is 1) (and 2)) does not limit the draw cap to effects, but also to anything that would make you draw (using the word draw), such as costs, or the draw phase framework action in the case of Den of the wolf.

Sorry for my crap English

Bolzano said:

Unfortunately, this is your error. By putting quotes around the word "draw," the FAQ creates the requirement for the word "draw" to appear in the effect before it can be considered a "draw effect." It is no different than when the FAQ says I f an event does not have the word "choose," then it does not have a target. The word in quotations must be contained in the card text in order for there to be something the game defines as a target. So, you see, there is some internal consistency in saying that the word in quotations ("draw") must be contained in the card text in order for the game to define it as a draw effect.

But let's look at this. By your reasoning, when Den of the Wolf is used to repeat the Draw phase, it becomes a draw effect because somewhere down the line, cards are drawn. Does that mean I could cancel it with Wildling Wisewoman? If I used it to repeat the Standing phase, does it become a standing effect? Or by the same reasoning, does using Open Market ( Dominance: If it is Summer, kneel Open Market and discard 2 cards from your hand to return any card from your discard pile to your hand. ) to get Blood for Blood from your discard pile turn Open Market in to a kill effect?

See, in addition to misunderstanding the FAQ (which really does say "only effects that use the word draw count toward the draw cap"), you are extending things too far. You don't look ahead to see what is set in motion by an effect and attribute everything down the line to that first effect. Things that could or will eventually happen because of the situation created by one effect do not define that effect. So the effect of using Den of the Wolf to repeat a phase is not defined by which phase you repeat. It is simply an effect that repeats phases. And as such, is not considered a "draw" effect, which therefore does not count against the cap itself.

I think Bolzano's confusion is stemming from the fact that "additional cards" is defined implicitly through the discussion of the draw cap and draw effects. It might be more clear if the FAQ said directly that "additional cards" are cards drawn by card effects that use the word "draw." The second clarifying line in the FAQ speaks explicitly in terms of the two card drawn during the draw phase without acknowledging the possibility of the draw phase being modified or repeated. It's understandable how someone could interpret cards drawn in a second draw phase to be "additional cards" since in conversational English outside the context of the AGoT rules they are in fact additional cards drawn that turn beyond the first two.

Schrecklich got my point and why I'm confused.

ktom I think we might be misunderstanding eachother since I agree with all what you just said.

Indeed we both agree that my exemple and Den of the wolf are not draw effects. What I meant was that there are two requirement for something to qualify as a draw effect :

a) to be an effect

b) to use the word "draw".

We agree Den of the wolf and my example are not draw effects (my exemple for reason a) and the Den for reason b))

I may read the FAQ wrong, but the first sentence of the FAQ

1) : "No player may draw more than three additional cards per round, regardless of card effects."

does not seem to limit the draw cap to card effects, but to anything making you draw additional cards (even if not an effect). The second sentence

2) : Thus, each player draws two cards during the draw phase, and through card effects may draw up to a maximum of three additional cards in the course of a single round.

sounds, to me (please correct if I'm wrong), just a consequence (use of the word Thus ) of the first 1) general rule, which is more restrictive and still apply.

In other words, although 2) does limit the draw cap to 3 cards draw with draw effects, 1) > 2) and 1) applies in the cases where additional cards would be draw through something that is not a card effect (such as the Den).

Thanks,

Bolzano said:

And that would, indeed, be the difference.

"Regardless of card effects" is part of the whole. The sentence is essentially saying "You can only draw up to three additional cards each round, even if there are card effects telling you that you can draw 100 cards."

The "Thus" in the second sentence is not indicating a consequence. It is introducing a clarification. In this case, it is pointing out that "additional" means "in addition to the cards you get during the Draw phase because the game says so." In this case, "thus" means the same thing as "i.e.," not the same as "therefore."

Taken together, statements #1 and #2 are not two parts of the rule with #1 being more general and applying the cap to more than just draw effects (defined later). The two statements are equivalent restatements of each other meant to be convey the same basic information.

It could be better written, but that is the interpretation here to my knowledge.

Thanks for the clarification.

As I read it, the sentence essentially said :

"You can only draw up to three additional cards each round, even if there are card effects or anything else than a card effect telling you that you can draw 100 cards."

And I misread "Thus", as you guessed I thought it was the same as "Therefore".