Evening all,

Next Friday our group should be continuing our Forgotten Age campaign, heading into The City of Archives.

Our group has a player using Sefina. Having looked at the set-up side of things, I note that at some point during the set-up for the scenario, we each gain "Body of a Yithian" in place of our usual investigator card - however, this does not have the "Before drawing opening hands" wording that the preceding two instructions do.

As a result, am I correct in thinking that Sefina would resolve her Forced action when drawing her opening hand, then once that has resolved, her body would be suitably transformed?

There was nothing in the FAQ or on ArkhamDB (that I could see, anyway) regarding this interaction, and I'd like to head off the discussion next week if possible

Thanks for your help.

It recently came to my attention that, strictly speaking, by Appendix III, you draw your hand before even reading the scenario guide. So I'm not sure what to make of a scenario setup that tells you to do things before drawing.

Rules as written, I guess you're right: you lose your Items, draw 13 cards, and then lose another five cards when you discard down to 8 and replace your investigator card.

It is odd that I haven't seen questions about this come up before.

Yeah, I was really surprised not to find any topics on the subject when I was scanning back through the forum - I was less surprised not to find anything with a search, but that's more a reflection on most forum search tools than anything else

Does Ashcan Pete still begin with Duke in play during this scenario? (I honestly don’t know). But if so, I would assume you still perform setup instructions from your investigator before turning into a Yithian.

Does Joe build his hunch deck, and then not get to use it?

Does Mark get Sophie?

Sefina draws her 13 card opening hand and places up to 5 events under her card as normal.

"Ashcan" Pete is unclear. I believe he will still start with Duke because you don't become a Yithian until after opening hands...and you start with Duke in play before opening hands, surely? That should really be clarified and queried just to be certain.

Scenario setup that specifies "before drawing opening hands" should still work regardless of Appendix III because specific beats general, but it's not actually card text so the actual Golden Rule doesn't apply...the intention is obvious and unambiguous so it's more just clumsy/bad rules writing.

Joe Diamond should still get a hunch deck as normal, since it's created during Step 4 of setup, long before opening hands and therefore before he becomes a Yithian. Logically, this would make the most sense as the point at which "Ashcan" Pete gets Duke in play as well.

All Unique Item assets are removed from the game during scenario setup so during City of Archives, Mark won't have Sophie anyway.

Well, Joe would create the hunch deck but he wouldn't get to use the hunch deck, since that's part of his character card.

Pete and Sefina I believe you have got it right, as far as RAW is concerned. I'm thinking it's probably an oversight thought and replacing the character card with Body of a Yithian ought to be done before opening hands as well. I admit that is just conjecture, but it seems like the most consistent way to go about it, IMO.

For mark, it's interesting. ...if Spohie can hit the table even for a second, then she stays because "sophie can not leave play" I would assume that Sophie comes in when Mark Harrigan's card enters play. So if you are "replacing" mark harrigans card with the body of a Yithian, then Mark Harrigan's card was in play at one point (just before it gets replaced), therefore sophie entered play, therefore she stays. Not sure if this changes or doesnt change if Body of a Yithian were to replace Mark's character card before opening hands. Anyway, I'm not married to this interpretation concerning Sophie, but it was just a thought.

7 hours ago, awp832 said:

Well, Joe would create the hunch deck but he wouldn't get to use the hunch deck, since that's part of his character card.

Pete and Sefina I believe you have got it right, as far as RAW is concerned. I'm thinking it's probably an oversight thought and replacing the character card with Body of a Yithian ought to be done before opening hands as well. I admit that is just conjecture, but it seems like the most consistent way to go about it, IMO.

For mark, it's interesting. ...if Spohie can hit the table even for a second, then she stays because "sophie can not leave play" I would assume that Sophie comes in when Mark Harrigan's card enters play. So if you are "replacing" mark harrigans card with the body of a Yithian, then Mark Harrigan's card was in play at one point (just before it gets replaced), therefore sophie entered play, therefore she stays. Not sure if this changes or doesnt change if Body of a Yithian were to replace Mark's character card before opening hands. Anyway, I'm not married to this interpretation concerning Sophie, but it was just a thought.

I would have thought that part of what happens with Joe went without saying. He also loses all other things that interact with his hunch deck (his signature asset and elder sign effect), so it just lets him selectively thin his deck and put his weakness away.

I think it's the opposite of an oversight. If you didn't have Sefina able to do her setup thing, her signature cards would be just weaker Unexpected Courage, and her signature weakness would kill her dead given the emphasis on drawing cards in the scenario.

Interesting point regarding Sophie. The card would be removed before opening hands, so it's not identical to the Duke situation. The issue is that it's unclear when it these things all happen during setup, but the interpretation I'd lean towards is certainly that you don't get Sophie at all (it's the interpretation that makes the most sense).

This really is a glaring hole in the rules, huh.

It gets even messier if you get a particularly bad resolution to the scenario.

I've been trying to avoid looking at the resolution for the scenario until after we play it

The setup specifically says BEFORE drawing opening hands. I'm not sure why this is getting over-complicated, you have to go through and filter out Duke, etc...

Duke is not a unique Item asset. He stays in the deck.

19 minutes ago, rsdockery said:

Duke is not a unique Item asset. He stays in the deck.

Good point re not unique item for Duke; though doesn't this answer the timing point.

On 4/29/2019 at 12:59 AM, sfo2018 said:

The setup specifically says BEFORE drawing opening hands. I'm not sure why this is getting over-complicated, you have to go through and filter out Duke, etc...

Not sure who you're arguing with here, dude - I agree that the Item withdrawal part is clear, but from reading the instructions it was less clear than it could've been when the step about swapping character cards happened. As it turns out, there were a couple of other interactions I wasn't thinking about at the time - in my defence, I was only asking as we have a Sefina in the group going through TFA at present (one of the two characters to survive the scenario, as it happens - getting hit for 4 Horror off your own weaknesses is not good ).

It just felt like the point after the two "Before drawing opening hands" steps could've maybe done with an "After completing set-up and drawing opening hands" statement (or similar verbiage) to clarify when things happen, that's all.

On 3/29/2019 at 4:26 PM, CSerpent said:

It recently came to my attention that, strictly speaking, by Appendix III, you draw your hand before even reading the scenario guide. So I'm not sure what to make of a scenario setup that tells you to do things before drawing.

Rules as written, I guess you're right: you lose your Items, draw 13 cards, and then lose another five cards when you discard down to 8 and replace your investigator card.

It is odd that I haven't seen questions about this come up before.

You don't lose the other 5. You can place them under Sefina as normal, and they stay attached to your Yithian form. Her Painted World still works to copy them. You just have no way to pull them out.