Despite possessing little cunning or tactical intelligence, these droids march heedlessly forward to crush any resistance through raw attrition alone. Mindlessly loyal and eminently expendable, the Separatist Alliance has few qualms about sacrificing endless waves of B1 Battle Droids to subdue a planet.

I am super excited about the opportunity to play these guys, I just happened upon a curious thought. While I am sure it is a balance issue, does anyone else find it curious that the B1's actually have a Courage value? Given their description, I would have thought that their courage would have at least been 2-3 if not a -.

Thoughts?

I suspect some of the droids will get - as a value. But, as many of the early movies show, those B-1's will run and easily get scared when they are beaten. I wouldn't be surprised to see some droid commandos or bodyguards have a - value.

We also don't know what the droid trooper type does yet. They might be immune to panic or immune to the effects of suppression but still able to panic or something.

Or I could see them having a rule that says "While a droid trooper is within range 1-3 of a friendly commander, treat it's courage value as '-'"

The flavour text on articles often has little to do with actual rules.

The B2s I can picture having either a higher courage value or even -. But the B1s? All I can picture in my head is the first episode of TCW.

8 hours ago, Caimheul1313 said:

The flavour text on articles often has little to do with actual rules.

Yep. Gamer hyperbole is the norm. If I had a dollar for everytime GW said something like "the most reknowned marksmen in the Olde World, they can hit a crow in the eyeball at 2 million paces with their feared Kentucky Longbows..." and then flip the the stats and read Ballistic Skill 3, and the weapon is Strength 3. The other thing was always "Utterly fearless, always found where the fighting is thickest, leading from the front, preferring to face their enemy in hand to hand combat whenever possible..." Leadership 7, Weapon Skill 3.

8 hours ago, KiraYamatoSF said:

All I can picture in my head is the first episode of TCW.

It seems to me like this cartoon is actually why most prequel-people like the prequels.

On 3/29/2019 at 7:46 PM, TauntaunScout said:

It seems to me like this cartoon is actually why most prequel-people like the prequels.

Partially.
I've loved them since the beginning, but I worked in a movie theater in 99 so I saw TPM at least 50 times all the way through and after about 5 it grew on me. I also was taking a critical eye to the entire franchise at the time so it wasn't an attack on my identity. I liked AoTC.

Then there's the kids for whom these were their first star wars movies. They exist. They really do and us crusty gen x dudes don't own the franchise anymore (and I'm so glad for that).
I didn't watch The Clone Wars until 2015 and once I got a few episodes in I absolutely fell in love. It also shows the difference between long form series and movies. Aside from the Marvel Movies which are now a long running series of movies in one you have limited time to establish characters, plot, antagonists and resolution. A well written and paced series (Babylon 5, Buffy, Angel, some seasons of modern Dr. Who, DS9, Bob's Burgers, Futurama, The Wire, Deadwood, Adventure Time....) can let you slow burn and get into characters.
The absolute best of The Clone Wars is a story of 5 Clone Troopers followed through the series. They were ready for service just after the Battle of Geonosis. It follows them from their training all the way through the end of the series.

And for you, TS....this is the last thing that George was truly involved in the direction. However, unlike the prequel movies he was involved at an executive level while someone else directed it. Someone who had their own vision to compete against George. Just like Irvin Kirshner and Lawrence Kasdan and Richard Marquand.

I also highly recommend the now legends (but not yet directly contradicted) novel about Darth Plagus. It gives a lot of behind the scenes retcon which makes events in Phantom Menace coherent.

2 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

It seems to me like this cartoon is actually why most prequel-people like the prequels.

I always liked the era, it was the first time we got to see a full on war in a galaxy far, far away on the big screen and in canon is the only war that has been on even terms. The 2003 Clone Wars miniseries sold me on Grievous and was pretty fun for being over the top, and the CG Clone Wars series helps really humanize the clones and made me able to actually like pre-Vader Anakin.

2 hours ago, Zrob314 said:

Partially.
I've loved them since the beginning, but I worked in a movie theater in 99 so I saw TPM at least 50 times all the way through and after about 5 it grew on me. I also was taking a critical eye to the entire franchise at the time so it wasn't an attack on my identity. I liked AoTC.

Then there's the kids for whom these were their first star wars movies. They exist. They really do and us crusty gen x dudes don't own the franchise anymore (and I'm so glad for that).
I didn't watch The Clone Wars until 2015 and once I got a few episodes in I absolutely fell in love. It also shows the difference between long form series and movies. Aside from the Marvel Movies which are now a long running series of movies in one you have limited time to establish characters, plot, antagonists and resolution. A well written and paced series (Babylon 5, Buffy, Angel, some seasons of modern Dr. Who, DS9, Bob's Burgers, Futurama, The Wire, Deadwood, Adventure Time....) can let you slow burn and get into characters.
The absolute best of The Clone Wars is a story of 5 Clone Troopers. They were ready for service just after the Battle of Geonosis. It follows them from their training all the way through the end of the series.

And for you, TS....this is the last thing that George was truly involved in the direction. However, unlike the prequel movies he was involved at an executive level while someone else directed it. Someone who had their own vision to compete against George. Just like Irvin Kirshner and Lawrence Kasdan and Richard Marquand.

I also hily recommend the low legends (but not yet directly contradicted) novel about Darth Plagus. It gives a lot of behind the scenes retcon which makes events in Phantom Menace coherent.

Yeah. All this basically. Plus Snips!

4 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

It seems to me like this cartoon is actually why most prequel-people like the prequels.

It wasn’t even any good until the last season. The problem is nothing will make sense unless you slog through the other 4.

Edit: @Tirion the last season is wrap up character arcs. I still don’t get why anyone likes Hondo, 100% of his character Charisma is thanks to Jim Cummings excellent voice work.

1 hour ago, Derrault said:

It wasn’t even any good until the last season. The problem is nothing will make sense unless you slog through the other 4.

Edit: @Tirion the last season is wrap up character arcs. I still don’t get why anyone likes Hondo, 100% of his character Charisma is thanks to Jim Cummings excellent voice work.

I understood what you were saying, I didn't understand why you felt that way

2 minutes ago, Tirion said:

I understood what you were saying, I didn't understand why you felt that way

Because neither Anakin nor Obiwan, who are the dominant focus of the first few seasons, have the slightest bit of Charisma, and worse, they (and really just all the Jedi except perhaps Ahsoka and this one older detective gent who sadly only gets a single episode) are incredibly stupid relative to many of the other characters, including the clones themselves.

Like, Grievous defeating a Jedi...any Jedi makes zero sense on the face of it, they can literally hold him still in the air (or throw, or theoretically rip in half) with their minds.

When Maul and Oppress break out of prison on Mandalore and pretty much slaughter everything in their paths using nothing more than the force (push, choke, crush) it puts the whole situation into stark contrast. Non-force users should have essentially zero chance of defeating a Jedi who can see them, but it’s routinely, and absurdly, portrayed as an even fight of some kind.

5 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Because neither Anakin nor Obiwan, who are the dominant focus of the first few seasons, have the slightest bit of Charisma, and worse, they (and really just all the Jedi except perhaps Ahsoka and this one older detective gent who sadly only gets a single episode) are incredibly stupid relative to many of the other characters, including the clones themselves.

Like, Grievous defeating a Jedi...any Jedi makes zero sense on the face of it, they can literally hold him still in the air (or throw, or theoretically rip in half) with their minds.

When Maul and Oppress break out of prison on Mandalore and pretty much slaughter everything in their paths using nothing more than the force (push, choke, crush) it puts the whole situation into stark contrast. Non-force users should have essentially zero chance of defeating a Jedi who can see them, but it’s routinely, and absurdly, portrayed as an even fight of some kind.

So... you don't like Star Wars at all then? That's how the force is in every portrayal, it pretty much works in service to the story.

It's one of the reasons most Star Wars tabletop RPG systems struggle to have good rules for it, because it's pretty inconsistently portrayed across Star Wars media.

Also, do you really think a Jedi would be cool with 'ripping someone in half' using the force? According to Yoda the highest ideal is to only use it for knowledge and defense.

4 minutes ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

So... you don't like Star Wars at all then? That's how the force is in every portrayal, it pretty much works in service to the story.

It's one of the reasons most Star Wars tabletop RPG systems struggle to have good rules for it, because it's pretty inconsistently portrayed across Star Wars media.

Also, do you really think a Jedi would be cool with 'ripping someone in half' using the force? According to Yoda the highest ideal is to only use it for knowledge and defense.

Why would you draw that conclusion? Star Wars is great, the prequel Jedi (and those in the animated series) are just mind boggling dumb time and time again.

Well, his body is almost 100% robotic, so it wouldn’t actually harm him per se.

And incapacitating a foe entirely is obviously a useful defense. As many Jedi use force push, they just don’t use it judiciously against enemies who it would be obviously useful against. In one episode they even use it to lift destroyer droids and then gently set them down on grenades.

The aesthetics of the prequels era is what got me, not to mention that I grew up on the Clone Wars both editions.

9 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Why would you draw that conclusion? Star Wars is great, the prequel Jedi (and those in the animated series) are just mind boggling dumb time and time again.

Well, his body is almost 100% robotic, so it wouldn’t actually harm him per se.

And incapacitating a foe entirely is obviously a useful defense. As many Jedi use force push, they just don’t use it judiciously against enemies who it would be obviously useful against. In one episode they even use it to lift destroyer droids and then gently set them down on grenades.

Well, what I mean is that the reason prequel Jedi don't make full logical use of their force powers is that Star Wars is a space opera mish mash homage to Flash Gordon, Buck Rodgers, Akira Kurosowa samurai movies, Jack Kirby comics and a bunch of other genres. It wants to create a certain aesthetic. A part of that aesthetic is sword fights. So when Obi-wan encounters General Grievous he's not going to just rip him in half with the force, he's going to have an extended Errol Flynn style sword fight that creates an exciting scene. It's the same reason space combat is portrayed the way it is in Star Wars, aesthetics > logic because it's a fantasy movie.

11 hours ago, TauntaunScout said:

It seems to me like this cartoon is actually why most prequel-people like the prequels.

I've loved the Clone Wars since I first saw Episode II, and the Dark Horse Comics (especially the Last Stand of Jabiim arc) really sold me on the era. I actually think the TCW cartoon is a step down from the greatness that came before, but since it was such a height of greatness, a minor step down still leaves ample room for awesomeness.

8 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

Well, what I mean is that the reason prequel Jedi don't make full logical use of their force powers is that Star Wars is a space opera mish mash homage to Flash Gordon, Buck Rodgers, Akira Kurosowa samurai movies, Jack Kirby comics and a bunch of other genres. It wants to create a certain aesthetic. A part of that aesthetic is sword fights. So when Obi-wan encounters General Grievous he's not going to just rip him in half with the force, he's going to have an extended Errol Flynn style sword fight that creates an exciting scene. It's the same reason space combat is portrayed the way it is in Star Wars, aesthetics > logic because it's a fantasy movie.

Yeah, but that doesn’t hold up if the opponent isn’t ‘also’ a force user, and they routinely portray that by the Jedi tossing Grievious (and others) around like paper toys.

Edit: aesthetics over logic only works if it’s not truly glaring, or it can be rationalized. Which, I suppose it could be given some of the lines they’re given in the show and the prequels. They might really just be that inept.

10 hours ago, Derrault said:

It wasn’t even any good until the last season. The problem is nothing will make sense unless you slog through the other 4.

Season 2: Holochron heist story, Return to Geonosis/brain parasites story, Mandalore story part 1

Season 3: Rookies/ARC Troopers, Ryloth story, Mortis story, Ziro story, Tarkin and Anakin begin their friendship (and this fleshes out why anakin was ready to get all fash-y), Mandalore part 2

Season 4: Umbara storyline, Nightsisters storyline part 2, Ventress storyline

Yeah, there were some bad stories in this, I was completely bored by the Mon Cala story....but there was a lot of great stuff. If I had a GM who ran me through half of this has an RPG campaign I'd never stop talking about it.

49 minutes ago, Derrault said:

Yeah, but that doesn’t hold up if the opponent isn’t ‘also’ a force user, and they routinely portray that by the Jedi tossing Grievious (and others) around like paper toys.

Edit: aesthetics over logic only works if it’s not truly glaring, or it can be rationalized. Which, I suppose it could be given some of the lines they’re given in the show and the prequels. They might really just be that inept.

Luke laid it all out in TLJ, the Jedi were foolish and filled with hubris.

I think one of the biggest glaring inconsistencies in the prequel era is how readily the Jedi were willing to jump onboard with the idea of using clones, genetically brainwashed human beings, as soldiers in their army. There's also their willingness to bring children (padawns) to the front line of a war zone and have them participate as combatants/commanders.

38 minutes ago, Zrob314 said:

Season 2: Holochron heist story, Return to Geonosis/brain parasites story, Mandalore story part 1

Season 3: Rookies/ARC Troopers, Ryloth story, Mortis story, Ziro story, Tarkin and Anakin begin their friendship (and this fleshes out why anakin was ready to get all fash-y), Mandalore part 2

Season 4: Umbara storyline, Nightsisters storyline part 2, Ventress storyline

Yeah, there were some bad stories in this, I was completely bored by the Mon Cala story....but there was a lot of great stuff. If I had a GM who ran me through half of this has an RPG campaign I'd never stop talking about it.

The alien species bottle episodes were all pretty meh, with the Geonosis episode being one exception, and even then some of it is real klunky, the best part being the Ahsoka/Bariss show.

Mandalore was fine, although all the governance scenes were pretty eyerolling.

I don’t get the appeal of Cad Bane, the good story with him is when Obi-Wan goes undercover, otherwise it’s pretty inexplicable how he’s making it two steps.

The best part of the Nightsisters was when Grievous simply crushes them under an inexorable mountain of material, because that’s exactly what you would expect to happen when someone brings a bow and arrow to a laser gun fight.

RPGs get a free pass, they don’t have to follow any real narrative structure when they’re highly player driven. That being said, from a players perspective I’ve seen players routinely thwart the DMs goals simply because they take a rational action that the DM hadn’t anticipated, killing/capturing/otherwise incapacitating a planned long term Nemesis in the very first meeting.

59 minutes ago, Derrault said:

RPGs get a free pass, they don’t have to follow any real narrative structure when they’re highly player driven. That being said, from a players perspective I’ve seen players routinely thwart the DMs goals simply because they take a rational action that the DM hadn’t anticipated, killing/capturing/otherwise incapacitating a planned long term Nemesis in the very first meeting.

True that. I remember my Star Wars d20 campaign when my players would routinely just fly around in their souped up freighter blasting targets on the ground instead of getting out and getting into blaster/sword fights.

Also explosives... So many explosives...

2 hours ago, KommanderKeldoth said:

True that. I remember my Star Wars d20 campaign when my players would routinely just fly around in their souped up freighter blasting targets on the ground instead of getting out and getting into blaster/sword fights.

Also explosives... So many explosives...

Exactly, it’s like when the Jedi decide to do some kind of ground campaign across half a planet instead of obliterating droids with orbital bombardment.

2 hours ago, Derrault said:

Exactly, it’s like when the Jedi decide to do some kind of ground campaign across half a planet instead of obliterating droids with orbital bombardment.

Large scale shields are a thing in Star Wars that would prevent that. You also have collateral damage to think of since a lot of the strategic worlds were populated.